Rodrigo Prieto Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 A question for Camera Operators and DP/Operators: I am prepping a movie in Morocco which we will shoot all hand held on Super 16 (this part of the film). There are a few shots that involve moving uphill on very rough terrain, looking back at an actor in close up as he advances rapidly. We don't want to use steadicam, as the director dislikes the smooth look, but I don't want the image to bee so shaky that we lose the actor's performance. I am exploring different options, one of which is the "Easy Rig". I am also intrigued by the Pogo Cam, but I have not used either of these rigs. The idea would be to operate with an on-board monitor to have the camera facing backwards, while still being able to see the ground so I don't fall on my face. Another option is to use the Aaton A-minima without any special rig, but again with a small monitor. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiguelDelValle Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 Rodrigo Honestly after the hand held work that you did on the dog shoot ;-) you should be giving lessons around here. How about and XTR prod or hire me!!!! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Brad Grimmett Posted April 16, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted April 16, 2005 Two options come to mind. One option would be to have a grip spot you while you walk backwards up the hill, making sure you don't trip and fall. The other option would be to stand on a doorway dolly and have the grips pull you up the hill. Personally, I don't like operating off a monitor (except for steadicam) so if it were me I would have my eye on the eyepiece, but that is just a matter of preference. The problem with using the A-Minima is that it's not really shoulder mountable and may be even harder to keep control of than bigger cameras. I'd prefer an SR or Aaton in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Andino Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 You could try practicing with a steadicam trying not to make it look smooth... Which is the opposite of what everyone else does...but ... An Aaton A-minima with a monitor will give you lots of versality... It'll be like using a MiniDV camera... But you might need something more stable... The simplest way of doing it is as Brad Grimmet mentioned handheld with an XTRProd or SR3 and having someone spot you. Sometimes the simplest idea is the best. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Luke Prendergast Posted April 17, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted April 17, 2005 Sit at the top and maintain framing with a zoom out as the actor approaches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Zyskind Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hi Rodrigo The easy rig is a funny contraption. I personally don't like to use it myself, as I feel that it limits my operating, but the idea of it is that the bungy cord carries the camera for you and you can use your energy on operating the camera handheld while walking backwards. I think it would work great with an a-minima and a little onboard monitor in this situation you described. The pogo cam would be to hard to operate while walking in rough terrain since you carry it in one arm away from the body. The trouble with the easy rig is more when you are interior and want to be close and intimate to the actors, it then feels quite big and bulky, and you could have trouble with it hitting the top of a doorway, if you were to walk trough any of those. But I can see the benefit of using it on a mountainside walking backwards. Enjoy the beautiful light in Morroco. All the best Marcel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hayes Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Rodrigo: I am a huge fan of your work. And great to see you posting. I am also a huge fan of the Easy Rig. I own the one designed for 35mm and would not shoot with out it. I?ve shot several feature almost exclusively hand held using the rig. Both 35mm and 16mm. I can shoot 35mm with a 135MM LENS handheld and get a great image. Steady but alive. Also I can keep a heavy camera on my shoulder for 10 to 15 min at a pop. With out wearing the Easy Rig I am often frustrated before the shot even starts. Also I shoot with VR glasses sometimes and use it in Low Mode. Held down by my knees. That said I don?t think the rig is the right device for this shot. It doesn?t work like a poor man?s Steadicam. If I need to run especially backwards the Easy Rig can add some unwanted movement. I would think about the rig Sam Rami used in Evil Dead. A long 2x4 maybe 10? with 2 grips on each end. With a wide lens. The grips run up the hill watching their footing the actor centers himself in the frame. The operator does a little tilt action. Check out the original Evil Dead. With a wide lens it maybe to smooth. Check it out as an option. Bob Hayes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolfe Klement Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Another option could be a steadicam balanced and have the springs set so that it doesn't look entirely smooth Walking in the DJ position with a steadicam (walking forward camera facing back) is the easiest way I have found of shooting actors moving forward with a camera in front for long shoot days The A minima can be used with a monitor (you facing forwards, camera facing back and monitor in front of you. The only issue is the short rolls in a minima (200ft) thanks Rolfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fstop Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Much of Polanski's Repulsion was shot with two planks bolted onto the bottom of the handheld Arri, each plank resting on the shoulder of Alan Hall the operator as he folowed the artistes handheld. Lenses were wide, 20-16mm. This technique is the most primitive contributed to this thread so far, but I think you'll find the images speak for themselves! I know the the studio floor was cramped and hardly a smooth surface either, not so sure how this would translate to a rocky terrain. I will say however that it was far steadier than much of the other verite stuff of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Rosenbloom Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 What is the Easy-Rig? Is it the upside-down L shaped contraption that fits into the newer Steadi-Cam vest? The camera hangs on a 1/8" steel cable that's got some kind of adjustable spring resistance. Kind of makes the operator look like a big question mark??? I can't imagine that it would be that difficult to get a bouncy Steadi-Cam while running on steep, uneven terrain, especially w/ a lighter camera like the A-minima. (You could just hire .... ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coolbreeze Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hi Rodrigo, Im not sure the easyrig would help you in this situation; its only designed to make it easier to support a handheld camera, not add any extra stabilisation to the image. Could you achieve the shot handheld sitting on a crane? or perhaps handheld on some kind of cable rig, like Garrett browns skycam? Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Brad Grimmett Posted April 17, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted April 17, 2005 The "plank cam" sounds like a decent idea. One other option I was thinking of (but may not be possible) is to have a crane with the the camera hanging from bungy cords or surgical tubing from the end of the crane. Then you could hold the camera and operate off a monitor without having to acually hold the camera. But you could add as much movement as you like because of the freedom of the bungy's. Of course it may not be possible to get a crane where you need it, but it may work very well if it is possible. One other offshoot of this idea (and I'm really stretching now) would be to make some kind of an inverted plank cam with bungy's and the camera hanging below it. The only problem would be that it would be a tough job for the grips to carry the plank and keep it above your ahead, although I think it would be possible with the right grips and rigging. Boy, this shot's really gotten me thinking. Please let us know how you end up doing the shot, and how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrigo Prieto Posted April 20, 2005 Author Share Posted April 20, 2005 Boy, this shot's really gotten me thinking. Please let us know how you end up doing the shot, and how it turns out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK, yesterday I tested on location different ways to achieve the shot. As many predicted, the Easy Rig did not work for this shot. It restricted my ability to have a totally free camera, and when I tried having the camera facing backwards operating with a monitor, it became clear that operating was very tough, and the shot was too bumby. I tried the simple way, actually walking backwards, but my spotting grip tripped, and I almost fell on him, and the stand-in carrying a girl almost fell on us, so I discarded that idea (and the shot looked too rough and shaky). Finally I tried a rig we named "The Joey Seat" (in honor of Joey Dianda, my Key Grip) which was a chair from the hotel with wood planks tied to it, and four grips carrying it. Each grip would compensate for the uneven terrain by raising or lowering his pole. They were pretty tired after running uphill with me and the camera, but I had a blast! The shot had the right amount of hand held feel to it, without it being too distracting due to vibration. Thanks for all the ideas and comments. Prepping a movie for me is like going back to film school, and with this forum, I have many teachers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 (edited) Isn't it great being the DP! "Hey you guys are gonna cary me up this hill." :P Rodrigo, please give us updates during your production as often as you can. You can post in the "In Production" forum. Feel free to run wild with your thoughts about what you are shooting and maybe post some pictures of your setups. I'm sure everybody here would love to learn from it. Edited April 20, 2005 by J. Lamar King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Brad Grimmett Posted April 20, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted April 20, 2005 Ahh.....the Joey Seat! What a relaxing way to shoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Laurent Andrieux Posted October 15, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted October 15, 2005 What's great is that the cheapest, easiest to concive (not to practice, I reckon) way is far the best, better than any "one thousand-dollars-a-day" crane or whatever sophisticated system... I like that ! The only point I'm afraid is your grip can't register his system ! But, I must confess I like that too ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji Wade Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 I think it should depend on who the actor is...if it's Pitt, keep it nice and shaky, we're all tired of looking at him. If it's Gael, then make it smooth smooth...our neo-Ernesto's got a nice face. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Haspel Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 i'd not use an aaton a minima or a any other very light camera if your'e going handheld. my experience is that the heavier the camera is, the steadier the image is going to be. it might be quite a pain in the ass, but the camera's weight is directly proportional to the image's steadyness... as for the easy rig: i've never worked with it, but i suppose that the heavier the camera is, the steadier the image is going to be, still being far away from the steadicams steadyness. i hope my rather bad english is making sense. good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji Wade Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 my experience is that the heavier the camera is, the steadier the image is going to be. Well, I think that's pretty obvious and Rodrigo already mentioned the A-Minima. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Collier Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Heres a cheap way to do it, not sure on your budget, but if you take a tripod and put weight at the bottom you can hold onto the tripod just below the head and the weight will smooth out a lot of motion, but still leave it a bit shakey. Other than that if your experienced with handheld you can make it work. I shoot handheld almost daily (news photog) and have gotten some rock steady shots. if you trust your abilty (and it sounds like others on this board have faith in you) you can probably pull it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji Wade Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 If the Rodrigo Prieto posting on this thread has any relation to the Rodrigo Prieto I'm familiar with, then yes, he probably has both the budget and excess talent/experience to pull this off. This is for Babel, I assume? Then again, maybe Rodrigo Prieto is to Mexico like James Smith to Americans. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delorme Jean-Marie Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 hi going in the direction of the a minima check the new swedish A-cam very light 3lbs!!! with a bone shape not reflex but you mentioned you wanted to operate with a video monitor we also tried a lot of rigs for "migrations" like helmet with "video on your eye system" you look like a "cyborg" but it works great my two cents (of euro) http://www.ikonoskop.com/acam/index.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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