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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

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Titanic, regardless or not if it's a better film cinematography wise or whatever, has attracted a much larger audience and will be remembered unlike Citizen Kane.

 

I wonder if Titanic will really be remembered. Citizen Kane dates back to 1941. For 64 years its has remained a topic of conversation amongst those interested in film.

 

What is there about Titanic that would give it such longevity? The script? Hardly. The performances? Hmm... The Visual FX? Already surpassed.

 

The only notable thing about 'Titanic', looking back on it now, is its' Box Office takings.

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
I wonder if Titanic will really be remembered. Citizen Kane dates back to 1941. For 64 years its has remained a topic of conversation amongst those interested in film.

 

What is there about Titanic that would give it such longevity? The script? Hardly. The performances? Hmm... The Visual FX? Already surpassed.

 

The only notable thing about 'Titanic', looking back on it now, is its' Box Office takings.

Titanic WILL be remembered, even if it's not looked upon as a super high quality film. The box office takings show something, that billions of people watched that film and liked it, unless all those billions of people suddenly get memory loss, they will remember it for aslong as they live. Citizen Kane is pretty much only talked about by film makers.

 

Also the fact that Titanic is based on a true event, and the true event will never be forgotten, and every time someone thinks of the Titanic sinking they automatically think of the movie. So in a way it's going down in history along with the Titanic.

Edited by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
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I completely understand creating films with high qualities e.t.c. but, I'm not interested in it.

I'll just let this statment stand by itself.

 

Ok, Max I have no idea what experience you have, but I've been acting professionally since I was 4, doing all kinds of theatre productions.

 

Sooo.. and I quote this - "I'm sorry but that statement just show that you really have no idea what your talking about".

If you have no idea what experience I have then I suggest you have a look at my imdb page.

 

Oh, and the 'Time is running out' music video by Muse is inspired by Stanley Kubrick's Dr Strangelove'.

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If you have no idea what experience I have then I suggest you have a look at my imdb page.

Acting experience I meant.

 

It's a sad day when a contributor to a Cinematography forum considers Box Office takings to be the most important indicator of a films' significance.

No that's exactly what you don't get about my point. Your love might be to create unique works of art, mine is to entertain people. Exactly why I don't take a huge interest in creating different styles of cinematography e.t.c. I just want the da-n thing to look good.

 

I couldn't care less what the box office takings were, but it's definitely a sign that people liked it. So in my books the film was a complete success, even if it isn't renowned for superb cinematography or whatever.

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Reason I like directing: I practically make the movie, I tell everyone exactly how I want a scene to look, how the actors should say lines e.t.c. And plus the fact that I am an actor anyway kind of helps.

 

 

Do I have to say anything...

Just reading it--you can tell how ridiculous the statement is.

 

C'mon...I mean c'mon... :)

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Do I have to say anything...

Just reading it--you can tell how ridiculous the statement is.

 

C'mon...I mean c'mon...  :)

Well give reason then.

 

Then why do you bother posting on this board?

Because I still take an interest in cinematography.

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If the box office was a good measure of quality, then any Steven Seagal film would be so much more brilliant than say The Godfather.

 

I rest my case. Firmly.

Bad examples to use really but if box office isn't a measure of quality. It is, however, a measure of how popular the film is. Titanic got the largest box office rating, which means it's certainly one of the most popular, meaning people liked it. If your film is liked by people all round the world and people are going to the cinemas to see it over and over again, then it must be a pretty da-n good film.

 

Everyone here seems to think that box office ratings don't mean anything.

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
One might argue that box office take has nothing to do with how popular a movie is at all; it just means a lot of people SAW THE MOVIE.  Doesn't mean they liked it.  It's not a Nielson box (however accurate that may be).

Well, I think I can safely say people liked Titanic. (Even though hardly anyone admits to liking a love story)

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This hasn't got anything to do with cinematography, but it's worth a laugh.

 

ALZHEIMERS' EYE TEST

 

Count every " F" in the following text:

 

FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE

SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTI

FIC STUDY COMBINED WITH

THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS...

 

Just see how many f's you can find...

Edited by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
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[quote name='Daniel J. Ashley-Smith' date='Apr 24 2005, 09:28 AM']People will remember Titanic for years to come.

[right][post="48060"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
But why will they remember it? Because of the hype and how much money it made, or because of the film itself?
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but if theres one thing I've learn't, it's that things NEVER come out the way you imagined them to.

I think any good DP would completely disagree with that statement

 

Trouble is I started to get really stressed out with filming towards the end, I wasn't having fun like on most films, I just didn't seem to get along 100% with the cast and crew. (No offense but most of them were gay and their sense of humour was just not funny)

Sounds like filmmaking isn't for you. It's a job, not a hobby you do to have fun. Sure, it's great when you can have fun at work, but it's not all fun and games.

If you just want to make home movies with your friends then you certainly should have fun, but if you want to make it your profession you should stop being so naive and realize that it's very hard work and oftentimes not fun at all.

And saying you didn't get along with people because, "most of them were gay and their sense of humour was just not funny" IS offensive. Maybe they didn't like you because you WEREN'T gay. How would that make you feel?

I feel like a kindergarden teacher right now.

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I completely understand creating films with high qualities e.t.c. but, I'm not interested in it.

 

That's fine. Then you can go work at a desk job, because if high quality films aren't what you're trying to achieve then there's no point of you working in this business. There are already too many hacks that work in this business just for the money.

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The box office takings show something, that billions of people watched that film and liked it, unless all those billions of people suddenly get memory loss, they will remember it for aslong as they live.

You're assuming that everyone that saw Titanic liked it. That's certainly not true. I was dragged to the theater to see it with a girl I was dating at the time, and I couldn't wait to get out of there. As far as remembering it....I wish I could forget.

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
But why will they remember it? Because of the hype and how much money it made, or because of the film itself?

Bit of both. Not the money, but the hype, and also the film.

 

"but if theres one thing I've learn't, it's that things NEVER come out the way you imagined them to."

 

I think any good DP would completely disagree with that statement

Well you would have to be extremely good, you would have to know of by heart how the film will react to it, how the colours will turn out e.t.c. When I take pictures with my SLR, obviously I see the subject through the viewfinder, and I take a rough guess on how the picture will look, of course when I get the pictures back they look nothing like what I imagined. So maybe you CAN tell what it will come out like, but you would have to be very experienced to know.

 

Sounds like filmmaking isn't for you. It's a job, not a hobby you do to have fun. Sure, it's great when you can have fun at work, but it's not all fun and games.

If you just want to make home movies with your friends then you certainly should have fun, but if you want to make it your profession you should stop being so naive and realize that it's very hard work and oftentimes not fun at all.

And saying you didn't get along with people because, "most of them were gay and their sense of humour was just not funny" IS offensive. Maybe they didn't like you because you WEREN'T gay. How would that make you feel?

I feel like a kindergarden teacher right now.

Out of all the films I've done, every single shoot has been atleast a little fun, I mean I had a good laugh with the cast and crew, but this one just seriously bored me. Plus I hated it becuase it was costing me tons of money to get down there, about £8 each day. And I only get paid if they sell it, no travel expenses for the time being or anything.

 

But I'm not going to let one bad experience put down my aspirations.

 

That's fine. Then you can go work at a desk job, because if high quality films aren't what you're trying to achieve then there's no point of you working in this business. There are already too many hacks that work in this business just for the money.

What? I'm not in it for the money, I'm in it for the love of making films. Something most people here seem to have forgotten. Of course I'm intersted in making high quality films, just not creating new styles e.t.c.

 

You're assuming that everyone that saw Titanic liked it. That's certainly not true. I was dragged to the theater to see it with a girl I was dating at the time, and I couldn't wait to get out of there. As far as remembering it....I wish I could forget.
Did you do a study? Or are you just making a broad generalization based on a guess?

Broad guess. I mean, if a film rates top of the charts then it's obvious that a lot of people like it. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean everyone else didn't either.

 

When I watched it, must have been about 9 at the time, I thought it was pretty good. Atleast the last hour anyway. And plus I wanted to see it anyway because my great-gran was actually on the boat, luckily she got saved though, otherwise I wouldn't be here today buggin you lot!

 

 

(Oh and people, we've reached 7... trying for 8...)

Edited by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
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This is going to be a 7 page thread.

 

Yay! We did it--7 pages! :)

 

And it only took 4 days!

 

There are so many people to thank--it was total group effort

We couldn't have done it without all of you...we should all give ourselves a hand...

 

 

So tell me did we break the record?

 

 

:) :D :lol:

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As we go further forward in time, and more movies are made--new styles develop, things change as a whole--shouldn't that broaden our influence as filmmakers and not constrict it? We can still look back 60, 70, 80, plus years and see amazing cinematography. Just because there are some good looking movies that still come out (and there are...) doesn't mean that everything that came before is old hat.

 

Nobody here is saying cinematography isn't good today. If you look around, you will find cinematographers who are currently working, of course there is good stuff still being made. What some people are saying, however, is that it's apparently the only good stuff that has been made, because we've "moved on." Evolution has left you behind, filmmakers of yesteryear. Now you're not up to snuff.

 

And somehow you're letting your dislike of the film Citizen Kane affect the fact of whether you think Gregg Tolland and (nonsensically enough) Conrad Hall are great cinematographers or not. I've seen movies that I didn't like where I enjoyed the photography, though I probably would have enjoyed it more if I liked the movie itself. Not once, though, have you expressed any kind of explanation of the work of these cinematographers. Just that you didn't like that one movie. Also the fact that you're dismissing lighting styles from the 60s and 70s because of a movie from the 40s is just bizarre, especially considering that most moving picture media today is highly influenced by films from the 70s. Yes, even music videos.

 

I'm fearing that you might be confusing the work of the music video cinematographer with the work of the music video colorist. Movies and music videos are two different beasts post production- and grading-wise, so they won't look quite the same (though the line may be blurred more with the popularity of the DI in features), but if you look past the different color schemes (and things like crushed blacks and digital diffusion filters), you will see similar styles of lighting from years of feature films.

 

Also, consider that Citizen Kane contains about as many special effects shots as a movie made today, but unlike Titanic, most people can't see any of them. Not really cinematography related, just food for thought.

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Well you would have to be extremely good, you would have to know of by heart how the film will react to it, how the colours will turn out e.t.c.

Though photography is indeed an art, there is also a science to it. Admittedly, it is not always exact, but any photographer worth his salt knows how to make educated guesses which are, more often than not, correct.. Someone who can make a statement such as the one you did is simply inexperienced. Go ahead and experiement all you want, and ignore all the history of film and photography, there's really no problem with wanting to do that. But I assure you, you're making the road longer and harder for yourself. The best you will end up doing is reinventing the wheel and believe yourself to be groundbreaking.

 

And since you didn't acknowledge it previously, Muse's (great band, I agree) video Time is Running Out was a tribute to the FEATURE film Dr. Strangelove. Listen and learn.

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Well you would have to be extremely good, you would have to know of by heart how the film will react to it, how the colours will turn out e.t.c. When I take pictures with my SLR, obviously I see the subject through the viewfinder, and I take a rough guess on how the picture will look, of course when I get the pictures back they look nothing like what I imagined. So maybe you CAN tell what it will come out like, but you would have to be very experienced to know.

The point I'm making is that a good DP DOES know what a shot will look like before he does it. That's his job afterall! I can tell you what a shot will look like based on the exposure and the stock, and I'm not a DP.

What? I'm not in it for the money, I'm in it for the love of making films. Something most people here seem to have forgotten. Of course I'm intersted in making high quality films, just not creating new styles e.t.c.

Well, when you say you don't care about achieving a high quality in the films you make you're basically saying you don't care. Whether you're just in it for the money or not, this is not the attitude you need to have.

Broad guess. I mean, if a film rates top of the charts then it's obvious that a lot of people like it. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean everyone else didn't either.

No, if it makes a lot of money at the box office it means that a lot of people went to see it. Whether people liked it or not has nothing to do with the box office. They paid their money BEFORE they saw the film. The box office means nothing.

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Broad guess. I mean, if a film rates top of the charts then it's obvious that a lot of people like it.

 

Broad guess indeed. You should try to inform youself a bit more about the nature of box office grosses before you go on using it in your arguments.

 

One things to be aware of is that an opening weekend can be bought, i.e. the studios put a lot of money into the marketing of a film so as to create a 'must-see event'. The real test of a film is how it performs int the following weeks, when the main criteria is word to mouth. Also smaller films that have smaller marketing budgets and smaller numbers of prints just cannot gross the same amount of money than a 4000 print blockbuster.

 

The other thing that one needs to realize is that the reason so many current films make more money than in other decades is because of inflation (and the inflation of ticket prices in particular). If one takes the inflation as well as the increase of the size of the population into account, 'Gone with the Wind' is the most succcessful film ever. And most current films that you think are so successful really are not that successful anymore.

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The point I'm making is that a good DP DOES know what a shot will look like before he does it. That's his job afterall! I can tell you what a shot will look like based on the exposure and the stock, and I'm not a DP.

So you can tell EXACTLY what the colours will look like, how the gamma curves will react to the different light? Well, if you can, thats fair enough. But when I say how something will look before hand, I don't mean,

 

"Kodak 7229 is 500t so it may come out grainy, I used a high aperture, about T11 so there should be enough DOF to get both actors in focus, and I remember the framing from what I saw in the viewfinder"

 

I mean you would to know that particular film stock of by hand, all the properties, colours, gamma e.t.c. Because you can't just tell from looking in the viewfinder.

 

Well, when you say you don't care about achieving a high quality in the films you make you're basically saying you don't care. Whether you're just in it for the money or not, this is not the attitude you need to have.

When I said high quality I meant it as in, creating new styles, creating groundbreaking techniques e.t.c. Of course I want my films to look good, I'm just not all that interested in creating new styles e.t.c. I mean, if you were to attack all DP's who don't create styles you'd be attacking a lot of the industries DP's. The DP from Titanic, I'm presuming he didn't create that style, are you going to say he doesn't care about high quality? Regardless or not if he created the style, it still turned out very nicely and he done a good job.

 

No, if it makes a lot of money at the box office it means that a lot of people went to see it. Whether people liked it or not has nothing to do with the box office. They paid their money BEFORE they saw the film. The box office means nothing.

Are you implying that all those billions of people that saw Titanic, didn't like it? I fully realise that those box office takings are just based on who went to see the movie, they might not have liked it, but, I still think I can safely say the majority of people who saw it, liked it. Unless you want to disagree of course and say that one of the biggest films ever made that went straight to the top of the charts, wasn't even liked...

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