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$10K Camera Kit Budget - Seeking Advice


Darmon Moore

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Yes and No Freya. As we all know, the camera will probably be available in 2015...Also, have you seen the prices on those Cfast 2.0 cards? :) you need at least 4 of those to get you by, plus the camera probably eats much more power (3 screens?!?), so more V-lock batteries as well are needed, plus you'll need a bigger tripod head. we're talking about 10K for workable camera, and you'll still need to get most of the extras like lenses, lights, sound and other bits and bobs.

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1032305-REG/sandisk_sdcfsp_120g_a46_120gb_extreme_pro_cfast.html

 

I don't think CFast 2.0 will be a problem as there are going to be a fair few companies using it and the price will drop. It's basically compact Flash technology. It isn't a good price right now tho you are right! :)

 

On the other hand you make a really, really, really great point about power consumption which is one of those things people tend to forget about which is really really, important. I think that flip out screen is really annoying too. I wish they had included it as an optional plug in screen. Will be interesting to find out what the total power consumption of it all is as you suggest.

 

It's also not exactly unobtrusive depending if that is something important to you?

I'm starting to really like unobtrusive cameras but it can work for you and against you.

 

Freya

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Actually one of the big factors I had in mind in terms of things changing in the context of the Ursa camera is that Blackmagic have something of a history of releasing new products and abandoning old ones. The slew of new cameras from Blackmagic and the lack of updates for the existing ones would make me concerned. So I'm not altogether thinking that it's a great new camera although it definitely looks very interesting (I havn't yet looked at it in detail as someone else is writing about it and I have to stay on top of my own work) but you have to consider how it shifts the state of play too.

 

Again this would lead me to think the best choice if going blackmagic is the pocket cinema camera. Cheap media and power and it's already further down the line than the other blackmagic cameras although they are all still missing really VERY basic features.

 

Freya

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It's also not exactly unobtrusive depending if that is something important to you?

I'm starting to really like unobtrusive cameras but it can work for you and against you.

 

Freya

 

I feel like you usually really need an unobtrusive camera about 20% of the time, maybe less, but the big added advantage is the weight of the camera and the size of the accessories (and their price). I can't tell you how much my back heart less from the new smaller cameras in the last couple of years...

I got so many back issues from lifting those 10Kg/20pounds+ cameras on my shoulder and on/off tripods. Also lifting the big tripod heads from time to time is not a great experience and realising that in order to mount the camera anywhere you need super expensive rigs and personal, that with most production will create another meeting with the producer trying to reason yourself...

 

on the other hand I really like the Cion shape, reminds me of my beloved Aaton 35III (cat on the shoulder) camera, the Aaton is so well balanced on my shoulder, it's the only camera that doesn't make my back heart after a day of filming.

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For what it seems Cion; BMPC and URSA share the same CMOS sensor. Both AJA and BM declare the same resolution and dynamic range for their cameras. It will be cool to see who's going to extract the best from the sensors they are using after calibration.

 

On a side and personal note, I really have to say that for what I can see I suspect AJA ergonomics to be better than it's URSA rival. And this is me, a BM owner.

 

On the other hand, having the chance to swap sensors down the road is a BIG/Major plus. This is probably what RED should have made years ago as a way to prove their motto "Obsolescence Obsolete".

 

About Cion PL. There's plenty of Nikon/EF adapters out there. Some very good.

Edited by Alexandre de Tolan
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Still more cameras from Blackmagic!

These 2 are studio cameras so you would need to pair them with outboard recorders. Presently an expensive proposition for the 4K model but more workable in 1080p.

 

http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/1594-blackmagic-release-studio-cameras

 

Nice big screens. Probably only worth considering if you are thinking of going multicam at some point (probably not in this case) or you want that nice big screen. On the upside there may be less to worry about in terms of firmware. We will have to wait and see.

 

Obviously if you paired the HD model with a decent outboard recorder it would also give you basic features like remaining disk space etc.

 

Freya

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About Cion PL. There's plenty of Nikon/EF adapters out there. Some very good.

 

Do you mean there are adapters to put Nikon/canon lenses on PL mounts? The only one I could find let Nikon lenses mount on PL but lost infinity focus.

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Do you mean there are adapters to put Nikon/canon lenses on PL mounts? The only one I could find let Nikon lenses mount on PL but lost infinity focus.

 

Never shot with an F3 but for what I know it has a PL mount so any Nikon/EF adapter to Sony F3 will work. A quick search revealed these among others:

 

http://divisioncamera.com/p/15033004/nikon-mount-adapter-for-sony-f3-rental.html

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Optitek-Prolock-Sony-F-to-Nikon-F-G-Mount-Adapter-for-Sony-F3-F5-and-F55/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kipon-adapter-for-Nikon-F-Mount-lens-to-SONY-FZ-mount-PMW-F3-F5-F55-video-camera-/111014650513

 

Kipon is a cheap Chinese brand but I seriously doubt that the Optitek adapter will suffer from lost infinity focus.

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I've not seen those specific adapters before, but I don't think they're converting Nikon->PL.

 

They'e taking advantage of the fact that the F3 comes with an interchangeable lens mount, which you have to remove and replace with one of these new adapters.

 

For example on the Kipon link it says, "Please note that before you mount Kipon NIK-F3 adapter, you shoud remove the camera equiped PL-F3 adapter first."

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Never shot with an F3 but for what I know it has a PL mount so any Nikon/EF adapter to Sony F3 will work. A quick search revealed these among others:

 

http://divisioncamera.com/p/15033004/nikon-mount-adapter-for-sony-f3-rental.html

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Optitek-Prolock-Sony-F-to-Nikon-F-G-Mount-Adapter-for-Sony-F3-F5-and-F55/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kipon-adapter-for-Nikon-F-Mount-lens-to-SONY-FZ-mount-PMW-F3-F5-F55-video-camera-/111014650513

 

Kipon is a cheap Chinese brand but I seriously doubt that the Optitek adapter will suffer from lost infinity focus.

Hi Alexandre,

 

The F3 actually doesn't have a PL mount, it comes as default with a PL to Sony mount (FZ mount) adapter. the FZ mount also got some lenses of it's own, plus you can find many other adapter for this mount as your links shows.

 

I wish all the new cameras from the likes of Blackmagic and Aja will use this mount for their cameras, but apparently sony do not permit anyone else to use it, as it is one of the selling points for the F5 & F55 and of course F3.

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I wish all the new cameras from the likes of Blackmagic and Aja will use this mount for their cameras, but apparently sony do not permit anyone else to use it, as it is one of the selling points for the F5 & F55 and of course F3.

 

The Micro 4/3 mount has adapters for PL and a wider range of other lenses too?

What is it you like so much about the Sony FZ mount? I don't know that much about it.

 

Freya

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The Micro 4/3 mount has adapters for PL and a wider range of other lenses too?

What is it you like so much about the Sony FZ mount? I don't know that much about it.

 

Freya

Till today from what I know you couldn't use micro 4/3 mount for super35 sized sensor, the mount was capped at micro 4/3 size sensor, this is why Blackmagic couldn't offer it for the 4K version. but apparently this might change know with the new panasonic Varicam.

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It seems like the AJA is a PL mount only.

 

That means one need to put aside 5-10K for lenses, even the GL optics Rehouse and Allstar and the old Cooke Zooms are min 4-5K per a lens. Having said that, I really prefer PL, and think that in the long run investing in PL Glass is better and the Cion looks like a lovely designed camera and more ergonomic than the URSA.

 

 

The Cion is a prototype now. Aja says that in the production model, the mount will be interchangeable. 3rd party companies will be able to manufacture various lens mounts. Micro 4/3rds lenses won't fit the sensor though.

Edited by Michael LaVoie
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The Cion is a prototype now. Aja says that in the production model, the mount will be interchangeable. 3rd party companies will be able to manufacture various lens mounts. Micro 4/3rds lenses won't fit the sensor though.

I just hope, that Aja are not going the same way as Blackmagic, in the sense that "okay, we got a new camera and you will soon get updates etc", then months pass just for us to realise, you can still not even buy the camera...not to mention get updates for it...

 

Personally the camera that caught my eyes the most is the new Red Scralet Dargon, I think the OP might consider saving up a bit for this one, as it is an amazing camera for a filmmaker. 16 stops of Dynamic range, 5K RAW, 4K up to 50FPS...small, light, proven...

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Till today from what I know you couldn't use micro 4/3 mount for super35 sized sensor, the mount was capped at micro 4/3 size sensor, this is why Blackmagic couldn't offer it for the 4K version. but apparently this might change know with the new panasonic Varicam.

 

That's a myth. Not sure how it was started but to prove the point JVC are about to release a new 4K handheld camera with a Super35 sized sensor and a micro 4/3 sized mount.

 

Freya

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Personally the camera that caught my eyes the most is the new Red Scralet Dargon, I think the OP might consider saving up a bit for this one, as it is an amazing camera for a filmmaker. 16 stops of Dynamic range, 5K RAW, 4K up to 50FPS...small, light, proven...

 

See this is another argument for the Blackmagic pocket in my opinion. It's cheap enough that you can just toss it away down the line and get something better! You only have to look at the stuff being announced at NAB to see how fast things move these days. If you get a pocket then you can get going now and pick something better up in the future at a much cheaper price as cameras devalue really, really, really quickly.

 

It is also a very nice little camera, so that's a great combination.

 

Freya

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See this is another argument for the Blackmagic pocket in my opinion. It's cheap enough that you can just toss it away down the line and get something better!

Freya

I just posted on Phils thread "purpose of better" about responsible design and why that's needed. This is precisely why. We all want to avoid unnecessary vaporware purchases that will just end up in a landfill.

On the other hand, I just recommended to the production department on a new film I'm shooting that we go with a rented Red Epic or F55 over the idea of renting from an owner / A.C. situation. The reason is because I'd rather have the option of Abel Cinetech or DuAll behind us ready to provide a replacement if something malfunctioned. Rather than have an owner just scratch their head onset with no clue why it's crashing. Same with an Alexa or any other higher end camera. You want a good rental house providing support if needed.

 

So when it comes to purchasing gear as an owner for use and to rent out on small indie projects, I would say from personal experience, it doesn't make sense to buy a hugely expensive camera since many people will be more inclined to rent that from a reputable dealer anyway. It also doesn't make sense to waste money on a crappy DSLR or equivalent. Which is why these new mid-level contenders are so interesting right now. Good enough for microbudget indies that can't afford a rental but not so expensive that you'll spend too much money paying it off.

Edited by Michael LaVoie
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I just posted on Phils thread "purpose of better" about responsible design and why that's needed. This is precisely why. We all want to avoid unnecessary vaporware purchases that will just end up in a landfill.

 

Well to be fair, I think it's often the case that these things end up on ebay rather than in a landfill and get passed down the line at cheaper and cheaper prices. Where people like me grab them and use them till they fall apart but certainly a certain percentage of stuff will just sit in drawers till it finds its way into landfill.

 

The pocket being cheaper and smaller has a greater chance of ending up in a landfill on the one hand, but on the other it's the kind of camera you could still use if you did start renting bigger cameras, or even if you bought a bigger camera. The small size means you can carry it with you everywhere and that it can fit in smaller places and go places where a big camera isn't suited.

 

As I was suggesting tho, there is an issue that the pace of change is obsoleting stuff at an alarming rate. In some ways the larger cameras are more prone to being obsoleted faster as the expense of running them means that once their value drops so far they become a bit useless.

 

Freya

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Hey everyone, I've just finished reading through all the recent replies.

 

Thanks so much for all your input, very appreciative :)

 

 

This is where I am at in terms of what camera kit I would like to invest in:

 

4K BMCC:

 

No more rolling shutter issues

Minimized Aliasing/Moire, in relation to BMCC 2.5k/BMPCC

The crop is a little better, only at 1.7 on the 4K version.

 

BMPCC:

$1000 :)

Small, lightweight and compact

More money for Lenses,tripod etc.

Great dynamic range, image is still great.

 

FS700 (Not ruling this out)

XLR

ND's

2K/4K with Odyssey

S-log2 (I personally think the BMCC is better in this respect)

35mm Sensor

FPS variety

 

 

 

 

So they are some of the Advantages of getting these different cameras. Could get away with something like 5-7K with the BMPCC for a basic kit, where as i'd be looking at 10-15K with the FS700 for a kit that would support this particular camera. the BMCC as Oron pointed out could easily be kitted out with 10K.

 

I've had a look at the new Sony A7s, it's intriguing with it's 4k (especially with the new Atmos Shogun) and it's 720p 120 FPS. However I have this weird feeling that there is going to be some issues with that camera, we will have to wait and see I guess.

 

I know some of you have posted explaining that tripods and lens's are more important, and yes I agree, I will be spending good amounts on those to ensure their longevity in my kits to come. However at the moment I want to figure out the camera that is actually going to sit on that tripod for now :) then I can pick the best pieces for that camera.

 

 

Again, some very insightful experience being added to this post. Really really appreciate it!!!

 

 

Darmon.

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BTW, I bought a Sachtler Ace for a B-cam setup. It's a great head but unfortunately Sachtler put in a bogen style sliding base plate as opposed to their typical snap on plate. On top of that it can only slide in front to back. This is very frustrating cause front accessories and handgrips on the rods are constantly in the way as you try to slide the thing across the whole surface to lock it in place. Why they did that I have no idea but I'd say it's worth going with a DV6SB instead. I've had mine for 8 years and it functions like it's brand new. The head anyway. Sticks are worthless cause of the midlevel spreader nonsense.

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invest in glass and rent camera per project

The only problem with this, is I can't just pick up my kit and go do some spontaneous shooting. I have to order,book, pick up etc.

I really just want a tight nit kit that will serve me well, something I can put in countless filming hours with. Plus at this stage, renting would be a waste of money in my opinion.

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''...I can't just pick up my kit and go do some spontaneous shooting''

in that case i'd go for a cheap 2nd hand dslr just to practice, spending 10K on a camera for spontaneously shoots is also a waste of money (in my opinion), because lets face it, any camera will end up in the garbage sooner or later, glass on the other side will keep its value for another 100 years, if not forever

Ive invested in a proper set CP2's, i always rent them out to the prod. house when i have a gig

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