Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) Please see the shock e-mail I received from Kodak UK Hi Stevewe have the following available33 rolls (33,000 ft) of the 16mm black leader - CAT 8905630 - @ £** ea 20 rolls (20,000 ft) of the 35mm black leader - CAT 8545865 - @ £*** eaSteve, as I will need to bring this in as a 'special order' from the US I will need a firm order on the qty's you wish to take on delivery to the UK...please let me know as soon as possible as the product is running out pretty quickly. This was the complete stock available from Kodak US, I have already brought the 6000ft of 16mm Black that Kodak Europe had in stock. This is now all in the UK and on its way to me, which to the best of my knowledge is all of the rest of the worldwide stock of black leader. This is a big investment for future work as I cut about 10,000 feet last year, so it will not last for long. So much for the promise made in June 2013 that Kodak had plenty of stock that would last for years, the black leader ran out after 10 months. http://www.motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/PCN030214_Q.pdf If I can help please let me know. Steve Farman Tonbridge Kent UK. Edited April 14, 2014 by Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Sponsor Robert Houllahan Posted April 15, 2014 Site Sponsor Share Posted April 15, 2014 Uhh that sucks, maybe there is someone else who could supply it? Let me ask around to some of our suppliers here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The Kodak black leader is carbon black, no emulsion. You can get Orwo black leader, processed or unprocessed. This is classic B&W film with emulsion that could get damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted April 15, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted April 15, 2014 Try the French: http://www.mkfilms.fr/produits.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted April 15, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted April 15, 2014 Please see the shock e-mail I received from Kodak UK Hi Steve we have the following available 33 rolls (33,000 ft) of the 16mm black leader - CAT 8905630 - @ £** ea 20 rolls (20,000 ft) of the 35mm black leader - CAT 8545865 - @ £*** ea Steve, as I will need to bring this in as a 'special order' from the US I will need a firm order on the qty's you wish to take on delivery to the UK...please let me know as soon as possible as the product is running out pretty quickly. This was the complete stock available from Kodak US, I have already brought the 6000ft of 16mm Black that Kodak Europe had in stock. This is now all in the UK and on its way to me, which to the best of my knowledge is all of the rest of the worldwide stock of black leader. This is a big investment for future work as I cut about 10,000 feet last year, so it will not last for long. So much for the promise made in June 2013 that Kodak had plenty of stock that would last for years, the black leader ran out after 10 months. http://www.motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/PCN030214_Q.pdf If I can help please let me know. Steve Farman Tonbridge Kent UK. Terrific. Just terrific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Duckworth Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Sadly it is quite true - here is the latest Kodak catalog giving the grim details: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Products/Product_Information/index.htm Some good news. The Film Advocacy Task Force of the Association of Moving Image Archivists is setting up a co-op for the bulk ordering of film products. It appears that Kodak is willing to manufacture product to order, but the order has to meet minimum requirements - hence the concept of the co-op. The person to contact for this is the Chair of the Task Force, Elena Rossi-Snook. With her permission I am posting her email - elenarossisnook@nypl.org Alan Duckworth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted April 15, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted April 15, 2014 Sadly it is quite true - here is the latest Kodak catalog giving the grim details: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Products/Product_Information/index.htm Some good news. The Film Advocacy Task Force of the Association of Moving Image Archivists is setting up a co-op for the bulk ordering of film products. It appears that Kodak is willing to manufacture product to order, but the order has to meet minimum requirements - hence the concept of the co-op. The person to contact for this is the Chair of the Task Force, Elena Rossi-Snook. With her permission I am posting her email - elenarossisnook@nypl.org Alan Duckworth Thanks, Alan. Is there a website for the co-op? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Duckworth Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Thanks, Alan. Is there a website for the co-op? Not yet. Please contact Elena directly at this time. The Task Force has an interesting website of its own, well worth perusing. The Resources section is quite valuable. http://www.filmadvocacy.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted April 15, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted April 15, 2014 Not yet. Please contact Elena directly at this time. The Task Force has an interesting website of its own, well worth perusing. The Resources section is quite valuable. http://www.filmadvocacy.org/ Excellent! Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter Posted April 16, 2014 Author Share Posted April 16, 2014 Thanks for the replies, No it is not a problem to get black leader made from Orwo sound stock, but at what cost and quality. Kodak black was always pin hole free, will that be the case with processed black then there is the cost I have priced it at about 6 times more expensive. Raising the cost of a 10 minute 16mm A & B neg cut from £400 to £700 and a 35mm A & B from £500 to £1000 I will contact Elena with my concerns thanks for the info. There is also another group call Save Film. see www.savefilm.org which should be up and running tomorrow 17th April. One of the founders of this group is Tacita Dean, who is a famous artist that works on Film, "FILM" ( which I neg cut) was in the Tate Modern Main turbine hall for 3 months in 2012 She is also on Radio tomorrow 17th of April at 11.30 or listen on iplayer Leading British artist, Tacita Dean takes listeners with her on a mission to save a language. Not the kind that is spoken in a remote community, but an artistic one - photochemical film. She travels to UNESCO in Paris, to the Department of Intangible Cultural Heritage, to persuade the world's heritage keepers to act fast or lose what she considers the most important form of artistic expression of the 20th century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter Posted April 16, 2014 Author Share Posted April 16, 2014 As one door closes another one slams in your face !! The Kodak black leader is carbon black, no emulsion. You can get Orwo black leader, processed or unprocessed. This is classic B&W film with emulsion that could get damaged. Please see below an e-mail i have recievied from Orwo, so even if paying double the price by the time its processed to black, there is only very limited stocks of this product. Thank you very much for your e-mail and the phone talk this morning. With regard to black leader I have to inform, our black leader is an emulsion coated leader with acetate base. After exposing and developing it has a density of 5 or higher. Unfortunately, we have stopped the production, caused through very low demand. But there are still any rolls in stock (approx.. 30 of each kind), but only unexposed/undeveloped. That means you have to do that in a lab. We could give to do that to a German copy lab, but it would increase the price. ORWO black leader LF2/LF20 35mm/610m 246.59 EUR/roll ORWO black leader LF2/LF20 35mm/305m 123,30 EUR/roll ORWO black leader LF2/LF20 16mm/610m 176.14 EUR/roll ORWO black leader LF2/LF20 16mm/305m 88.07 EUR/roll I presume the carbon black was made in the now closed Kodak Acetate Factory and no one else can make it. I don't think there will ever be an order big enough for it to be remade either even if "The Film Advocacy Task Force of the Association of Moving Image Archivists" or " UNESCO" gets involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Steve, You only need about a foot of real black leader per shot, we can zero-close the printer between takes so no light strikes the not-so-black leader between the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Palmer Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Steve, You only need about a foot of real black leader per shot, we can zero-close the printer between takes so no light strikes the not-so-black leader between the shots. This surely is an extra headache. I can't believe the demand for true black leader is that tiny worldwide. I need some myself :o Anyone else ? It's a bit like film cement which seems to be going also extinct These things it seems we hardly notice till it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Hi Dirk Yes its true, we used to do this when I had a branch at Technicolor London, they zero closed the printers and we used reprocessed NG prints ( to almost black out the image) to make up the length then cut back to black 3 feet before the shot change. But that was because Technicolor had a big stock of acetate NG prints ( not because they were a bad company just faults in the stock) sorry had to say that, legal stuff. !! Now there's no prints are on acetate so what do I use to space out between the good black after and before shot changes, Polyester print stock will need tape splicing in, cant do that I have professional pride, you know. Anything I use needs to be of a know source, I cant have breaks in the gash stock when printing due to be very old or just rubbish stock. I would not like assume responsibility for cutting in unknown stock into a cut neg, it could end up a disaster, for me and the client. Buying new acetate stock would cost more than the Kodak black did. But I have 36,000 feet of 16mm black in stock and 6,000 feet of 35mm black so will be OK for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tuohy Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I think the best remaining option would be to use 7363/5363 Hi-con. Yes it isn't the carbon black but it is acetate and it make an excellent black. It is also relatively cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I think the best option would be to process Orwo 16mm positive stock to a good black. You can still get it on acetate but it will be long pitch (1R3000). If you use the one foot of official short pitch black before and after the shot, that would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted April 18, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted April 18, 2014 It's a bit like film cement which seems to be going also extinct PARATAX is a slow binding but non toxic film cement. Stinks of acetic acid, keeps up for years. 10 ml and 250 ml portions looking for a distributor in the U. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Duckworth Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 This website became active last week, the list of supporters makes interesting reading: http://www.savefilm.org/supporters/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 http://www.savefilm.org/supporters/ Looks like someone is getting the big players involved let's hope it can save whats left. Which is not much :( I think the best option would be to process Orwo 16mm positive stock to a good black. You can still get it on acetate but it will be long pitch (1R3000). If you use the one foot of official short pitch black before and after the shot, that would work. Sounds like it would work OK, but it will still cost about 3 times as much as Kodak black once processed etc, This is another cost increase that the clients will have to pick up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Duckworth Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Received this email this morning: > I've confirmed with Bob Mastronardi at Kodak that there has been enoughinterest in the discontinued black leader for them to consider a second run.So don't panic.HOWEVERThis is a supply and demand market. Kodak will supply whatever is demanded.But don't be complacent about your stock needs, be proactive. If you'reinterested in any Kodak product, shoot me an e-mail off-list and I'll putyou in touch with the proper person or will group all requests together fora specific stock so that a single order can be placed.Elena Rossi-SnookChair, AMIA Film Advocacy Task Force > Her email address is posted with her permission: elenarossisnook@nypl.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Jeremy Cavanagh Posted April 26, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted April 26, 2014 Received this email this morning: > I've confirmed with Bob Mastronardi at Kodak that there has been enough interest in the discontinued black leader for them to consider a second run. So don't panic. HOWEVER This is a supply and demand market. Kodak will supply whatever is demanded. But don't be complacent about your stock needs, be proactive. If you're interested in any Kodak product, shoot me an e-mail off-list and I'll put you in touch with the proper person or will group all requests together for a specific stock so that a single order can be placed. Elena Rossi-Snook Chair, AMIA Film Advocacy Task Force > Her email address is posted with her permission: elenarossisnook@nypl.org Alan, Interesting answer, this may be off topic but I wanted to ask, do you mean specialist items such as black leader or particular items that haven't been done before e.g. Vision 3 in DS8 runs. Is Kodak becoming more flexible in addressing the market such that they have removed a lot of costs and inherent inflexibility from their management/production structure so that they can produce whatever will sell product? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Duckworth Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 From the outside looking in, it is seeming that Kodak wants to respond to market forces. I have to assume that there will be "magic numbers" in terms of demand for any particular stock - hence the idea of a co-op rather than random individual orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted April 27, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted April 27, 2014 In that case, we should start another petition for 7231... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 What is going to be minimum order for a batch of black, 250,000 feet or more. How much will it cost ? more than £80 per 1000 feet I would think ! None of which matters as long as the clients can afford to pay for the extra cost of the negative cutting. I am OK for a while as now have 30,000 of black 16mm leader and 10,000 feet of 35mm black leader. The worlds total stock of black ( anyone got a cheap safe ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Duckworth Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Steve, that is one impressive stash! As to cost and minimum order quantities, I think we are in uncharted territory until such time as real orders start to be placed. It will be interesting to see exactly what is required to justify firing up the production line for any particular stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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