CAn't get a break

[Nor Domingo]

Hello all!

 

I've been apprenticing with a really good cinematographer for a good 3 and half years now but my career won't seem to take off. At the same time, I see some kids fresh out of school getting all these big breaks after making a couple of music videos. Am I not being aggressive enough with marketing myself?

[Laurent Andrieux]

Maybe if you would describe your cv briefly as well as your strategy it could help us a bit

[David Mullen ASC]

It took me ten years to "break out" although I was always working in some way or another (just not paid much for it)... I wouldn't base your career timeline on the few exceptional stories of early successes. It takes time to build a career and your resume, not to mention your skills.

[Guest]

Want to DP a feature?

 

Arrange the financing and declare your self the DOP.

 

Over and done with, next....

 

Richard

[Laurent Andrieux]

Want to DP a feature?

 

Arrange the financing

:D

 

Not so easier !

[Nor Domingo]

Thanks all!

 

Laurent, I wish I could put my CV here but I'll be a bit embarrassed. Like I said, all I've done is assist and have been paid little if at all. I have some directing credits for mostly industrial videos, though. Let me work on that and I'll post it here asap.

 

David, TEN YEARS??!! Well, it's kinda scary that I might have to wait that long but then again inspiring seeing were you're at now. Thanks!!

 

Richard, How I wish. But working for nothing the past few years, there's not much cashflow on my side of the world.

 

Again, Thank You!

[David Mullen ASC]

David, TEN YEARS??!! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why they call it a "career"... it's not like winning the lotto.

 

The ten years went faster than I care to admit though.

[Dan Salzmann]

In my case, ten years went real fast. Alot really depends on your contacts and personality as well as your skills as a DP. Where you are based and just being in the right place at the right time are also important.

[John Pytlak RIP]

Very few people live or can retire on their LOTTO winnings. Many enjoy decades of working in the industry, and the friends, fulfillment, and feeling of accomplishment a career in motion pictures can bring. For every "wunderkind" or "genius", there are thousands of craftsmen and artists who make it happen every day, doing what they enjoy. B)

[Adam Frisch FSF]

I second the 10 years. I started in 1995 as a clapper on a short and I'm still struggling at times to make ends meet. This year will probably be the first year I can get a decent to good living out of it.

 

Also - there's a fair amount of bullshit in this business - lots of people say they're busy as hell when in fact they're not. And it isn't a bad strategy to do so either - if you "project the image of strenght at all times", as an ex-consultant-turned-director told me, you will come out ahead. I'm not to good at that myself - if someone asks and work is poop I'll tell them so, but that's not necessarily the case with everyone else. Always take "busy-ness" with a big grain of salt. Sad thruth about humanity - if you seem busy you'll get more work. Success breeds success and all that.

 

But of course there are ways to improve your market value. Here is the somewhat crass and jaded view:

 

First. Get rid of any shots or films that don't cut it. Kill your darlings - be merciless. Get outside opinions and tell them not to sugarcoat it. This is hard to do, but it has to be done. Less is more as usual. Chris Cunningham famously only had one thing on his reel - his latest masterpiece. It's about quality, not quantity.

 

Secondly. Understand the fact that viewers of your reel are NOT good at judging cinematography - you get judged by how good the film is in itself (and this is true for all levels of viewers - even pro's). Therefore get rid of the beautiful short with a sucky story and actors. Famously Lucas cut in WWII air footage to suggest the dogfights in Star Wars when the film previewed because the effects weren't done. He got an abysmal score and everyone was sure they had a bomb on their hands (except Spielberg). Morality? Never show footage that is half done, not edited, graded, whatever - people can't "imagine" how it's going to look. You have to SHOW them.

 

Thirdly. Once again - success sells. Therefore if you've got any footage that is recognisible - either it has run on TV or there's someone famous in there - stick it on (unless it's absolute crap, of course). It's all about "coolness by association" or "recognition - oh, yeah, I've seen that", unfortunately.

 

Fourthly. Make sure you take sides. I had a long conversation with a focus puller (we were drunk, but it's still valid) and he basically said that he would continue to do it all - shoot a little, focus pull and load. I said he has was nuts - that's a perfect recipe for failure in all three areas. At some point you have to decide what you want to do and what you want to be known as - you can't do it all. This is a specailized business - I sure as hell know I'd rather work with an AC that takes his job seriosly rather than a a guy who can't wait to step into my shoes and who's lost interest in the job he's hired for. That's a fact. Naturally, in the beginning there will be overlap and most focus pullers I've worked with do shorts and small stuff on the side. That's fine and I encourage that, but as they grow more and more disinterested with the job at hand, so do I in hiring them for that job. So when it's time to fly on your own - you have to have the guts to say "no thank you, but I light these days", even if that means living on noodle soups at your parents place.

 

And to be honest with you - I like the fact that it takes a great effort to have a career in this business. I wouldn't want it any other way. You want hardcore fans and devotees that live it - not some guy that just thinks it would be a cool thing to do to get girls. It takes effort and perseverance - it's not for those who want job security or/and money (to begin with). If anybody could do it then everybody would. It's a sexy business that's criminally fun when you've made it, but you pay your dues up until that point in spades.

 

Good luck.

[Benjamin_Lussier]

"Many enjoy decades of working in the industry, and the friends, fulfillment, and feeling of accomplishment"

 

Well said Kodak man ;)

 

Even if you start with crappy movies, you can still learn and have alot of fun. $$$ might be a problem, but you'll survive... note here that Im just 20... and have no experience whatsoever... MUAHHAHA :D

 

No seriously, if you're passionate, you're bound to get a job. I started working in post/FX houses when I was 17... I started when I was 13 at home...But I'm not a DP, I'm a compositor/colorist... which is different cuz you can hire 30 compositors on a movie, and just ONE D.O.P ...

 

Anyway

GOOD LUCK... if this is what makes you happy... go for it... dont give up

All the rest... its just background noise IMO

 

Cheerios

Ben

[Laurent Andrieux]

I second what has been said by Dan, Adam and even Benny though he's young, he's made another point.

 

Benoit Delhomme has been lighting shorts for free and eating noodles for years before he lit "scent green papaya" and other succesfull features. His name comes to my mind but there are many more DPs who started like that, along a long "journey", than ones who had the luck to make this journey short (like Philippe Pavans)...

 

Some ACs have a real problem to make it to becoming DPs because they are so good at ACing that DPs want them for this job and would never leave them the camera... That was the problem for Pierre Lhomme's ACs for instance...

 

This problem of eating noodles for ten years is one of the reasons I quit actually, 6 years ago, but if you know you're strong enough for it, consider that many people you are in concurency with will drop out on the way (some guys should thank me I have, maybe...) so that your chances become bigger and bigger as time passes...

 

And don't forget life is surprising, sometimes it's when you would drop out that someone calls for something unexpected...

[Kevin Zanit]

10 years could easily be considered fast.

 

If you look at the route people used to take (intern, loader, 2nd AC, 1st AC, operator, and then DP) it could take 20 or 30 years.

 

It is not until fairly recently that people had this notion of being a DP without coming up the ranks.

 

Kevin Zanit

[Guest]

"It is not until fairly recently that people had this notion of being a DP without coming up the ranks."

 

Geez Kevin do you want to shock every film school student in the country?

 

Most of them are planning the decor for the mansion they'll be living in by 28.

 

Richard

[Kevin Zanit]

Haha,

 

Well it is possible that some will stumble into a career shooting, but as David said, it is by no means the rule.

 

The fact is, very few people in film school go in wanting to be DPs. The people who do have a much better chance for success just by virtue of the others wanting them to shoot their projects.

 

By the time they get out, they have a (hopefully) solid reel and some friends who will be directing their own small projects over the years and will call up their old contacts from school.

 

Now a career as a director, I honestly have no idea what approach one would take out of school to actually earning a living directing. More power to you if you can.

 

I think the reason some take issue with people trying to just jump strait into calling themselves/ working as a DP is because being a DP is not necessarily something that should happen quickly, as Adam said.

 

It is the same as any other job . . . people don?t like working for a boss that has no idea what his employees do, and how exactly they do their job. The DP is the "boss" of several big departments, and it is important that he has a working knowledge of what they do, and what they need to get their jobs done.

 

That all said, it is also important to remember all these people who make up the various departments are experts at what they do, so there is no reason for you to be as good or better at pulling focus than your 1st is. But to know they will need time and rehearsal to get focus marks, and also a decent f-stop for them to work at are important aspects of their job to know about.

 

I don't know how I ended up on this rant, but I think it comes back to this job being a craft that takes many years to become proficient and seasoned in, as it should.

 

Kevin Zanit

[Laurent Andrieux]

C'mon, Kevin's right !

 

Just to mention that the only term "intern" is very short for what can be (in France) :

 

- 2 years of general studies or Audiovisual basic studies (type of school I teach in)

- 1 year prep for intern contest (you can't really hope to pass it right after the above) and it's sometimes 2 (I know, my students do it before they can do it)

- 3 years of graduating school (Louis Lumière, Femis)

 

Then you are good for beginning as a trainy or "go and get", and beginning to 2nd ACing... for may be 2 or 3 years before you become 1st AC.

 

That position can last, itself, for ten or 15 years, if not ever...

 

I know some good cameramen who have to AC sometimes, so they can live.

 

But I consider that as Kevin said, it's fairrly recently that some people become dp just as they drop out plumbery, dentistry or mechanics... but in the other hand, the 6 to 7 years trip I described above just for being graduated took me only 2 years 15 years ago...

 

t this time, no use to do the 2 years general studies, could enter right after high school, and the studies lasted only 2 years...

 

Considering you can "pass" 1st ac in feature after 3 feature lengths (CNC rules in France), cameraman after 3 features as a 1st ac and dp after 3 features as a cameraman, it all depends on how long it takes you to do the three features...

 

Ok don't worry, there are exemptions so that you can "work as"...

Edited May 3, 2005 by laurent.a

[Patrick Neary]

hi there-

 

at the risk of sounding snotty, you don't really "wait" ten years, you work those ten years, and maybe then some, on whatever you can get.

 

and each milestone along the way feels like a great accomplishment- the first real paying gig, the first shoot on a real soundstage, the first shoot on a project that people actually see, the first year you actually make a livable income...

[Guest]

"the first year you actually make a livable income... "

 

Yes, this one comes at the end of the "working" 10 years. If ever.

 

Richard

[Laurent Andrieux]

Right Patrick, I remember myself, the first short in 16 as a 1ac, the first feature as a 2nd, the first short in 35 as 1st, the first short as a dp, the first feature as 1st, etc.

[Nor Domingo]

WOW! I didn't expect to get this much reaction from my post. But, thank you all for your insights, stories, and encouragements. Each one inspiring!!

 

Sorry if my post sounded a like I'm a whiny, impatient, wanna-get-rich-quick dude. Let me just be more detailed why my 1st ever post was a cry of frustration:

 

I'm a late bloomer. I'm pushing 40 with two little kids. I told my wife 3 years ago that I want to be a DP. I warned her that we'll be eating instant noodles for a while because I know I'm not going to earn much for at least 5 years. Bless my wife cause she said, "If that's what you want to be and if that's what it would take, then do it." She didn't want to live with an unhappy man.

 

Lately though, the DP that I've been apprenticing for has not been getting a lot of work either. He works primarily in advertising. It's almost been two months since he's had a project. A lot of the senior DPs hear in Manila have been slashing their rates since a lot of 20-something DPs(KIDS!) have sprouted and who charge much lower than the veterans. I'm not going to knock 'em all off because a lot of them are GOOD! But some are... I won't say anything. I believe in karma. :P

 

So for the past few weeks, all I've been doing is reading books and back issues of AC magazine. It's tough sometimes though, when you're up late at night and you look at your kids and wonder how you're going to feed them. In the meantime, I'm also back with my parents cause I can't afford to rent anynore. (God bless them too!!)

 

Some of you are right and I've been told the same: In this business(at least, in this country), it helps if you know people who can give you the "breaks" a lot of us have been WORKING for.

 

But give up, I won't. NO WAY! This is what I want to do and I'm going to do it. Even if it takes more than ten years!

 

So please forgive my post and let me start thinking positively an wake up tomorrow with a smile on my face.

 

THANK YOU ALL!!

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I don't understand the confusion. Of course you can't get "a break". Very few people ever do; the job you're after is oversubscribed quite literally hundreds to one. If you've got a family, you'd better also have a very good backup plan because positive thinking aside failure is almost inevitable.

 

Phil

[Nor Domingo]

Having a good back-up plan will never help anyone succeed in any business. Why? Because they know they can always "back-up". ;)

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

Really you have just stumbled on to the reality of being in the DP business. It's a slow rising process, period. You have to build a reel and most importantly you have to meet people. You have to become known to people in the business, don't confuse that with fame. I haven't shot anything high profile but I manage to make a living, though a very meager one. PA's usually wear better clothes than me, drive better cars and live in better houses. :D

[Guest]

Having a good back-up plan will never help anyone succeed in any business. Why? Because they know they can always "back-up". ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Phil is right on this one, a plan B is a must, not a luxury.

 

How many huge corporations go into battle with just one plan? What kind of general committs his forces having only one battle plan? How many movies does Holywood release in a year?

 

They fire out so many because they know many will miss the target, so they need plan B, C, D, E, F, G, H.......

 

R.

[David Mullen ASC]

My only back-up plan was that I could teach film. It's still my back-up plan. It may be my retirement plan.