Jump to content

New Red Camera - Raven


Brian Drysdale

Recommended Posts

don't be sorry Robin. Tyler has lost his mind. For one he started off saying he's hasn't shot much with the red and does post. and its obvious . .

 

I mean people are bing nice and don't want to speak up but with every passing post he writes he really does make a fool of himself. I really think that if your going to have an good discussion lets limit his posts or not take them to seriously since you have not shot with the red much but you really speak a lot about it . really docent seem like you’ve shot with any thing new.

sorry for the grammar I wrote this fast and on a phone .

 

 

Okay, I really don't like it when people start making nasty personal comments about other forum members as we can see happening above. Please keep the discussion to the cinematography and technology etc and be nice to the other forum members even if you disagree. Generally we totally allow people to make fools of themselves on cine.com if they wish, or at least we always have done in the past. It can be a bit uncomfortable if someone is quite young and full of ego and saying really nutty things because it's a real names forum and stuff sticks around but there isn't really an easy answer to that it's a modern world thing.

 

A good thing about forums is there are often a lot of people with different opinions and stuff. This is good. People can discuss things and then you can work out what your own opinion is. Someone might even say something that is completely wrong and it can be a good thing because then someone else has the opportunity to point out the correct answer and then people can learn from that. A discussion can even take place from that where people learn more details as people try and explain and people argue or whatever. All of this stuff can actually be good even if it doesn't seem like it should be.

 

I don't think we want to limit anyones posts unless they are being abusive to other users in some way or in some other way being really offensive.

 

Sometimes people don't take peoples posts seriously and they make jokes and that's okay and can even make people laugh which is good. Sometimes they do take peoples posts seriously even if they are wrong and it can be an opportunity for people to learn more from the resulting discussion. This is all good.

 

 

I don't understand why you're here. There is no cinematographer with your name (or anything close to it) on google or IMDB. So based on your childish anger, I can only assume you're a RED devotee who is looking for redemption in all the wrong places.

 

 

Saying people are childish and questioning peoples status is also making things personal in a way that is not good.

I like to think people are welcome here for the most part and don't think it's nice to question why they are here unless they appear to have come here just to be abusive or something.

 

Seriously I think it's okay to have personal preferences for cameras or whatever.

I don't want to go too far down discussing this too much as I nearly got thrown off the forum last time I tried but I think different camera systems have different looks and people might choose them for this reason regardless of which one is technically "better". It's like what David was saying about Agfa. For instance I really like the images from my fisher price PXL 2000 and they are not what people would normally call "good". They are very different however.

 

Freya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

third

red has no mandatory accessories . the only one would be media . you can run the rest of the camera with cheap third party accessories like monitors batteries a phone to change all the setting. Again your making arguments and making your mind up with out knowing a lot and your confusing new comers like your self about digital cinematography. Ill say it again there are no mandatory red accessories.. only media .. you can have the camera woking with thousands of third party accessories.

 

come to think about it you can use a recorder with red.. so actually you could just buy the brain and thats it from red and everything else to run the camera you could buy separately. you don't know this of but you still make comments about it why? take a step back and realize you don't know a thing about the camera .

 

Depends on the Red Camera. It *IS* true that a lot of Red accessories have their own standards. I have a Red One MX. It's difficult to find third party monitors for the camera that will display the menus, although there are a few if you can track them down. If you use the Red Monitors then you need expensive custom Lemo cables. It's true that you can use V-Lock batteries but you will need a custom V-lock battery interface to the camera, once again with expensive Lemo wiring. Same with AC Power. Media is to Red standards and you require a custom interface to use it too. You also need the media readers on the computer end if working with Red SSD's. I have found that it's kind of essential to have a top handle for the Red One. To do so you also need the camera top mountings first. It's true that there are a couple of third parties making things to the Red One standards although in the past Red have discouraged this to the extent that you aren't even allowed to write the word "Wooden Camera" on their forum.

 

I actually had a cheap third party top handle that fits the more usual standards for hole spacing and was trying to modify this by widening one of the holes a few mm to make it fit the Red standard camera top mountings. Thankfully I met a guy who used to work for spitting image who helped by milling out both holes in such a way that it made a really secure top handle but it turned out to be quite difficult to adapt the more every day stuff to the Red Standard. I think the Epic bodies are a bit better in this regard but you will still need to have things like media side modules in order to use camera properly.

 

I think the new Raven camera is going to change all of this and is going to be a lot easier to work with standard third party stuff than has been the case in the past but we will have to wait until it has properly hatched out of it's egg to be sure. :)

 

Freya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

for post #75

do I need to be on IMDB to point out your wrong I just proved it I'm glad thats all you could come back with just go to show more that you were wrong. Just admit it and move on.

 

you have to realize to thats your opinion there are more good movies made with monitors then no monitors. and if they had that back then they would be using them.

you can always se and actor with camera dolly crew sound in front of them . you need a monitor.

 

for Post #76

Freya Black

Its true not to make attacks .. but 98 percent of what tyler is saying its not opinion so he's gibing a lot of miss information and its how rumors and things get started.

 

Past #77

that is true for the RED one but not for epic and scarlet weapon and raven.. you don't need menus on the monitor to operate it but almost any ddi or hdmi monitor you can see them anyways.

 

I was simply pointing out that Tyler was attacking a single camera manufacture. when info at all are the same way. even Arri you have to chose which batt. mount you want before hand and they wire it for you.

Edited by bill h. hendrickson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

if one is working on commercials, music videos and/or corporate stuff one does not necessarily have a single imdb credit even is one has been in the business for example 20 or 30 years.

 

camera's usability & practical construction+form factor+easy setups = money

light sensitivity=money

reliability=money

workflow compatibility and easy workflow = money

easy backups = money

easy monitoring = money

 

camera's look =creative choice

camera's frame rates etc. special features = creative choice (--->maybe money if wisely used)

 

The only stupid statement here is that one could replace all the existing camera systems with a single system which fits all the possible shooting situations perfectly.

That is simply not possible and I don't see any reason why it even should be.

 

The only situation when this would be nice is if you are a owner operator and would like to shoot all your stuff with a single camera body because you only afford that single one <_<

It is however not a reason to bash all the other systems just because they are not the one YOU own. One does not have to always justify their camera purchase to the rest of the world, I'm sure a professional can choose a camera system which suits best his/her needs and projects without needing to reason every day WHY they did their purchase and WHY everybody else are stupid because they chose some other system :ph34r:

 

I am shooting material for my own crappy documentary with a Konvas 1KCP with kmz lenses, on Fuji Vivid, completely handheld, run-and-gun style, using single cheap-o 20€ led light for lighting if needed. (I am able to fit all the stuff in my small backpack including changing bag, backup battery, extra lens or two and two extra rolls of film, walking 10-15km to the locations if needed.) I think that is about as unconventional as it can be :blink: i could easily choose to shoot the same material with the FS7 (and also have shot some of it) but I think the Konvas is the best choice for the specific material I shoot at the moment and I really like to be able to switch styles by changing film stock and also to be able to get the same look with my Cameflex if needed :lol:

If practicality demands it, I have also shot stuff for the same project with Bolex RX, Krasnogorsk2, Konvas 1M, Panasonic GH3 and GH4, 5Dmark2 raw, etc.

 

Why the heck one would need to drag an Alexa or Epic with him with tons of batteries and big rental costs if some other camera suits the specific project much better and one can thus for example get shots which would otherwise be lost because of the unfitting gear which is clumsy choice in those specific situations?

 

It's like owning a multitool, you can use it for almost any task but it does not fit almost any of them perfectly and for most uses it is really bad choice compared to, say, a proper screwdriver ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

if compared to the lighting, it's like saying we are only allowed to use steel Combo 3's and 40" c-stands for all our lighting needs. And then some fanboy shouts that the 4k Arrimax is the only real movie light, everything else is total crap and all the people who are using any other light are stupid and unprofessional :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Bill,

 

Did you join this forum simply to highlight what you perceive to be inaccurate statements on Tyler's part? That's certainly how it seems, but that's fine. You have every right to question the veracity of Tyler's statements in this or any other thread. But tone it down, man. There's way too much hostility roaming around this thread and that's just not how we do things in this forum. I'm not defending Tyler or you, but I will defend the integrity of the forum. We're all here for an exchange of information and to learn from each other. We have disagreements with each other all the time, but we always respect each other. Personal attacks - on anyone's part - are just not cool and you seem like you have enough knowledge that you could make a worthy contribution to this forum if you can chill out a bit.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Saying people are childish and questioning peoples status is also making things personal in a way that is not good. I like to think people are welcome here for the most part and don't think it's nice to question why they are here unless they appear to have come here just to be abusive or something.

I'm sorry, but I don't like to be personally attacked by someone who clearly came on this forum to do just that. He became a member three minutes before his first attack and the only posts he's made are flaming one's against anything I have to say, doesn't matter what. It's childish behavior and I've seen it on other forums, Youtube and Vimeo where it relates to people talking down about RED products. It's well known that RED staffers have gone around and attack people who don't like their products. This lead me to google search and find that our new member doesn't have any record in google. To me, that's a red flag and it's disheartening to think someone would either use a false name or claim to be something (cinematographer) they aren't in order to put someone down.

 

do I need to be on IMDB to point out your wrong I just proved it I'm glad thats all you could come back with just go to show more that you were wrong. Just admit it and move on.

Words don't prove anything. They're just your opinion, like my words are my opinion.

 

you have to realize to thats your opinion there are more good movies made with monitors then no monitors. and if they had that back then they would be using them.

Technology doesn't make better movies, story telling doesn't require a monitor so the director can see what you're shooting. There is something to be said about trusting your cinematographer.

 

http://www.afi.com/100years/movies10.aspx

 

you can always se and actor with camera dolly crew sound in front of them . you need a monitor.

Right, because sitting next to the camera operator on the dolly like they did for 80 years before monitors, that's an impossibility today.

 

he's gibing a lot of miss information and its how rumors and things get started.

There is no misinformation. There is only opinion based on personal experience. Your experiences are clearly vastly different then mine. What you seek in a camera has zero relevance in my world and clearly visa versa.

 

I was simply pointing out that Tyler was attacking a single camera manufacture. when info at all are the same way. even Arri you have to chose which batt. mount you want before hand and they wire it for you.

Meh, I don't like most digital cinema cameras, but that's because they don't fit within some basic guidelines that I feel are more important then how much over-cranking or how sensitive the imager is. RED goes one step further by using proprietary connectors, storage devices and codec. Doesn't matter how many companies build compatible products, it's still a requirement to buy those products, some of which won't work with any other camera. At least companies like Arri, Blackmagic and AJA are focused on making cameras that shoot standard editing-based formats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not just words.. some things can be proven.. right or wrong.. full stop.. and you put out so much empirically wrong information in a lot of your posts.. from codec acceptance ,to battery mounts.. to not understanding ISO .. or basically cine camera,s.. except for the BM pocket cam.. this is not really a high end camera Im afraid .. this is the problem.. and what pisses people off.. no one has problems your own opinions , which you have of course the perfect right to express.. empty vessels seem to make the most noise ..

 

 

Your last line is a classic example.. you really dont know what your talking about mate..

Edited by Robin R Probyn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Mr. Murashige,

Yes it was bit rude . But I ask that a warning be given to Tyler also. This is an site based on educating people. And he's giving out wrong information which is not good education. I think thats it is worse then being rude so I ask the moderators and the people of this community to please give him a warning. or at least call him out on it . why am i the only one?

 

I don't want to re write everything from my last post but two quick examples.

he said you can't use standard v mounts on a red camera. Fact yes you can . even arri cameras when you buy them have no batt. mount you have to specify what you want or buy it third party just like red.

 

He said you can't edit natively with the red files and he gave a list of programs. every single program he gave you can edit natively .. like davinci or premier . which he stated you can't .. so this is wrong not an opinion .

 

Arri Raw is also proprietary so he's wrong there too. when he said that camera does not shoot a proprietary format.

 

the raven which is what this topic is about shoots prores so how it that different from an arri camera?

 

if you re read my post you can see where I wrote every thing that was wrong about what he said .

 

Tyler i do admit that my comments based on quality of film could be an opinion but everything else was not an opinion they were facts and thats why you chose not to comment on those things.

codecs are not opinions they are facts.

 

So I ask again If I'm getting a warning could we please give him a warning on the miss information.

 

I have nothing to do with RED or even like it that much. I just simply pointed out which parts you were wrong on and coincidently most were about red cameras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Bill, sorry I misspelled your last name. I'm not a mod here, but I'm not going to tolerate abusive behavior either. That's what I'm calling you out on. If you can't be civil and refrain from personal attacks, then don't post here.

 

Beyond that, I'm not a referee who is going to adjudicate disagreements on points of fact. It's not my job, and frankly I have other things to do. Make your best argument and let the readers make up their own mind. If you're annoyed by another board member, well then that's what the 'Ignore' function is for. Hope you can find a place here and add positivity to the board going forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm adding the most positivity here .. I'm keeping this forum fact based. if your not a moderator then whats your warning about ? hopefully you call out people who actually need it who do real harm. if you have time to cal me out then i hope in the future you call others out

Edited by bill h. hendrickson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I explained already, people are allowed to be wrong on the forum.

If we were going to have witch hunts for people saying things that are wrong then we would have to clearly define what we consider to be right or wrong before we went on such a crusade.

 

Allowing people to be wrong also allows people to discuss things in a way that they can learn more. If you shut out anyone who is "wrong" then you are limiting the forum to the few people who already know everything about everything and they have no need to learn anything.

 

Basically people are allowed to be wrong, and it is an important part of learning.

Being abusive in a personal way on the other hand is just not very nice.

 

Surely you must have been wrong yourself at some point Mr Henderson?

 

Freya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Past #77

that is true for the RED one but not for epic and scarlet weapon and raven.. you don't need menus on the monitor to operate it but almost any ddi or hdmi monitor you can see them anyways.

 

I was simply pointing out that Tyler was attacking a single camera manufacture. when info at all are the same way. even Arri you have to chose which batt. mount you want before hand and they wire it for you.

 

 

I think we were discussing how Tyler didn't like Sony cameras when you arrived in this thread. So it would appear to be more than a single camera manufacturer being singled out for attack as you seem to be implying.

 

Red cameras cannot use standard V Mounts.

Here is a standard V-Mount:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/538206-REG/IDX_P_V2_P_V2_V_Mount_Camera_Plate.html

 

For a Red camera you need a Red specific battery plate with a Lemo connector on the end. This will only work on Red cameras.

 

It could be a similar situation with the Alexa needing non standard V-Mounts too. I don't have enough experience with Alexa battery plates to know.

 

Perhaps the Raven will be able to use standard V-Mount plates. We will have to wait and see.

 

Freya

Edited by Freya Black
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I'm adding the most positivity here .. I'm keeping this forum fact based.

 

Great. Stop with the personal attacks and we'll get along fine.

 

if your not a moderator then whats your warning about ? hopefully you call out people who actually need it who do real harm. if you have time to cal me out then i hope in the future you call others out

This is my hang out spot and has been for a long time. I don't appreciate you or anyone else coming in here just to pick a fight. Knock it off, or don't post here.

 

Oh, and the Ignore Preferences are in your personal account on the top right in the full browser version. You can use it to filter out posts from the members you choose. Works great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Freya Black

you can use that battery plate on the red

only your right only the connector has to change but the plate stays the same very standard in most camera systems. most cameras will have proprietary power connector but the plate stays the same. very easy..

and they use standard V mont that you can buy many places.

 

My point in pointing this out is not saying red is better but rather the same as many other camera systems . The link you provided there are not many cameras that use that actual connector .. but i think your pointing out the plate which yes red can use.

 

 

Also I agree its ok to be wrong . but when you realize it its good to admit it and stop saying the same things over and over and in different threads and forums. Its also ok to admit your wrong thats how you learn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you don't need a DSCM module for the RED EVF you can plug it straight to the body.. you can also use third party EVF's for the red through SDI or HDMI. Most cameras have proprietary connectors for their EVF's including black magic URSA mini, sony, arri. no difference really

 

you don't need to cover anything up with the battery you can mount a v mount or gold mount any where including rails behind the camera on the side of camera or straight on the back . thats the beauty of it you can build it to your needs.

Ive had a v mount on the back of the RED epic / dragon for the last 4 years. never blocked anything needed .

 

for some one as your self who shoots very minimal no cables no nothing perfect for you

 

Don't want to use and RED accessories thats fine get all third party. this goes the same with most cameras . some less the others .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

You're right about one thing, I did forget the SSD module had an EVF output.

 

Again, my point is that you can't put a V mount battery receptacle onto the back of the actual camera body without disrupting critical resources. It's not a big deal, you can always run cables all over the place on your rig. If you followed RED's accessory guide, you'd have a nice clean camera without all that mess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Freya Black

you can use that battery plate on the red

only your right only the connector has to change but the plate stays the same very standard in most camera systems. most cameras will have proprietary power connector but the plate stays the same. very easy..

and they use standard V mont that you can buy many places.

 

My point in pointing this out is not saying red is better but rather the same as many other camera systems . The link you provided there are not many cameras that use that actual connector .. but i think your pointing out the plate which yes red can use.

 

 

You say there are not many camera systems that use that actual connector but this is the standard connector on V-mount battery plates and many, many cameras used it from various manufacturers. I have two cameras that can use these plates for example. You are right that lately there seems to be a growing thing to ignore this standard. Its also difficult to use this plate with the Red cameras as they don't have the mounting holes for the plate on the back of the camera either so you would have to attach the plate to something and find a way to attach it to the camera. It's possible to re-wire the plate to a lemo connector but not a lot of fun and probably far easier and safer to buy a Red specific battery plate. Of course a Red specific battery plate won't work with the cameras that do conform to this standard.

 

Freya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used the Epic Dragon on a shoot last weekend, and I've gotta say that sensor is incredible. Dragoncolor2 with REDlogfilm is the best color I've ever seen straight out of the camera. All it took was 2 minutes in Resolve to get a base grade, and another couple minutes to get something very close to a final look. We're shooting in 4k 2:1. I've never worked with the old sensor so I can't attest to it's accuracy, but the Dragon is the first RED I've actually considered acceptable.

There were very few cables to deal with, all we were running was one for the LCD and one for the Bomb. We could've run an XLR in for scratch, but ya know film didn't have any scratch so that's not really putting us back any, plus we were running some complex handheld shots and an XLR may have killed me. We also ran out SDI to a small handheld monitor for my director, and it was nice not to have to use an adapter like on the RED One.

 

Functionally, there were a couple things that bothered me. The RED EVF mount doesn't go far enough forward to put the Bomb in the right place for proper handheld. The cheeseplate on top of the camera doesn't have a 3/8" screw hole (which would've allowed me to use my longer noga arm) so I was forced to wrestle with a shorter arm which had 2x 1/4" screws, and using an EVF on an arm like that is a pain. Also having to use a breakout for timecode isn't cool. It'd be nice to have some more standard SDI ports for timecode, non-RED monitoring, etc.

 

Long story short, helluva great camera but not without its shortcomings. Looks beautiful with old Zeiss Standard Speeds. I'm interested in the Raven primarily because not every production can afford even the Epic Dragon, and based on my success with this camera I'd like to be able to bring a similar quality to those smaller productions. The price of buying it doesn't really phase me, cause honestly you're talking about a brain that's 5x cheaper than the Epic Dragon entering a rental ecosystem that is already heavily invested in the proprietary accessories. So those have already paid themselves off, you're looking at a reeeeeally cheap rental on these things. And who knows, if people ask me to shoot enough on the thing and I'm making money on it, why wouldn't I buy one?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The price of buying it doesn't really phase me, cause honestly you're talking about a brain that's 5x cheaper than the Epic Dragon entering a rental ecosystem that is already heavily invested in the proprietary accessories. So those have already paid themselves off, you're looking at a reeeeeally cheap rental on these things. And who knows, if people ask me to shoot enough on the thing and I'm making money on it, why wouldn't I buy one?

 

 

I understand the Raven is going to need a lot less in proprietary stuff. For instance the media side module is going to be built into the body. I think it will be a VERY interesting camera. I really want to see more stuff shot with the Dragon sensor as I have a suspicion that it is somewhat underrated but it's early days yet.

 

Freya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...