Daylight interior question

[Palle Lindqvist]

Hi,

 

I'm about do to a low budget commercial shoot in an apartment, and the look is supposed to be a daylight high key look, something like this:

I'm guessing that normally you would shoot such a scene with an HMI rigged outside the window to make sure you have consistent daylight?

But unfortunately this budget wouldn't allow this so I'm left to battling with the sun.

So, I guess what I'm pondering is what kind of lights to rent. My first idea was to use the sun as a key if it's overcast and then maybe rent a kino 4'4 for fill and general ambience light.

But since I'm quite a newbie when it comes to lighting this sort of scenes I don't really know if that's enough to get that kind of bright daylight look?

Really thankful for any input!

Best,
Palle

Edited October 8, 2015 by Palle Lindqvist

[Jay Young]

What is your budget?

How long is the shoot? If its one day, a 1K parcan with 5600k globe runs something like $60 but I'm sure you can find it cheaper from different rental houses.

I see listed prices for a 1K fresnel at about $48 per week, that plus some CTB gel will get you in the ballpark. 4'4 kino's seem like there about three times that per week cost.

I say all that if you want to recreate the sun.

 

If you want to use the sun as a key, you can always judiciously use bounce material / reflectors, and supplement with the kinos.

[Will Barber]

Based on the quality of light on the chair shot, I'd say they were using a large diffused source, like an HMI through a 6x6 or larger silk, shaped with flags to kill the spill on the wall, and using some sort of white bounce for fill. The sink shot looks like something smaller but similar, using the window as a natural fill/edge, and adding something like a Kino off the right side for key. If your window is going to be in the shot, then you'd obviously have a place to start. I personally prefer not to rely on the sun, but if it's giving you what you want then it'll obviously work for you.

I might suggest looking for some sort of small HMI if possible, like a 575 Arri or 800 Joker, with either a 4x4 frame or a Chimera for the key. Even 4x4 daylight Kinos would work, but you'd likely need diffusion on them still, and possibly to double them up behind a single frame of diffusion. My main issue with Kinos personally is that they lose a lot of intensity quickly, which is difficult to work with when you're trying to fight the sun. I did a similar high key setup using just a Joker 400 with a pice of 250 through a frame of opal as the key, which allowed the ambient light in the room to fill it.

[Hunter Mossman_45382]

I'm not sure how low your budget is but if you search around I'm thinking it's possible to get an HMI within your budget. Maybe an older Arri or LTM 575W or ideally 1200W Par through a frame of whatever flavor diffusion you like would give you the most bang for your buck and really get you the look you're going for. A 4' 4Bank isn't going to give you the punch you need. Look around online you may find gaffers in your area that can rent you a unit at a lower cost then a big rental house. As the DP you have to fight for the tools you need to achieve the desired product and with a little extra work I think you'll find they are within your reach!

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Another good trick; get a roll of 1000H and paper those windows so they are just a constant state of "blown out white."

[Palle Lindqvist]

Many thanks for all the input, really really helpful!

 

I'm thinking of maybe going with a Joker bug 800 with a softbox for key, and a Joker 400 and bounce it for fill. That should probably cover me for most kinds of interview setups right?

 

Also, I might have to light larger interiors for wide shots, and I'm assuming the 800 bounced into some foam might be come in handy?

 

Am I also right in assuming that I should be able to power both of these lights in an apartment if they draw 10.5 and 5.5 individually?

 

This will also be my first time working with HMI's, but these Joker Bugs seems pretty handy, but is there something in particular to be wary of?

[Jay Young]

Am I also right in assuming that I should be able to power both of these lights in an apartment if they draw 10.5 and 5.5 individually?

 

You'll want to have them on two different circuits. Just plug one in the kitchen, and another in a different room with a long lead, should be fine.

[Brian Drysdale]

I assume you're using 230v rather than 120 volts, if that's the case your current figures will be different.

[Mark Dunn]

 

Am I also right in assuming that I should be able to power both of these lights in an apartment if they draw 10.5 and 5.5 individually?

 

 

An 800W will draw less than 4A at 220V.

[Mark Dunn]

 

You'll want to have them on two different circuits. Just plug one in the kitchen, and another in a different room with a long lead, should be fine.

FYI Europe uses 220V, although the OP's current figures appear to be incorrect.

[Jay Young]

FYI Europe uses 220V, although the OP's current figures appear to be incorrect.

 

Yep, right you are. Sorry, I was just guessing based on the mentioned amperage.

[Mark Dunn]

Here each floor will have all its sockets on the same circuits. The breaker is usually at least 32A. Individual sockets aren't fused.

[Phil Rhodes]

...but the plugs that go in them absolutely are, so it doesn't make much odds in the long run!

 

In the UK at least there's almost invariably a separate circuit for the kitchen, too, so you can get more from that. In extremis, there is often a 32A "cooker" circuit which can be made available with only a small amount of work from an electrician.

 

P

[JD Hartman]

Not if you've got a gas cooker in the kitchen..... Phil I image that you would have an Aga cooker.

Edited October 9, 2015 by JD Hartman

[Phil Rhodes]

But they're really really expensive...

 

Actually the circuit tends to be there regardless, which is sort of why it's useful.

[Albion Hockney]

It depends on the size of your locations, but if you have the space I would get away from the joker with a soft box option. That is going to be a pretty sourcy light with a shadow quality and it will not look like your stills which have a very soft even light for fill.

 

I would get 1 HMI either a 1.2k or 1.8K (as big as you can afford) and make a book light (bounced and then through diffusion). The cheapest way to do this would be with a 4x4 bounce card and then a 4x4 frame of diffusion in front of it but that is still probably not as soft as you want. So I would rent a 6x6 grid cloth or similar (probably 1/2 grid) and if you need to save money don't even rent a frame just drape the cloth on 2 C stands.

 

This light can be in the house, you don't need to come through windows

 

Another route would be to use Kinos, I would use atleast 2 4x4 Kinos through grid cloth, but this will have less punch then the HMI probably.

 

I would for sure have a light to use for fill on set, but honestly you may not need it if your Key is soft enough and somewhat frontal.

 

I also 2nd the use of 1000H if you need to just have nice clean blown out windows all day.

[David Mullen ASC]

Book lighting through a 4x4 isn't going to necessarily be any softer than going directly through a 4x4 diffusion -- the softness is determined by the size of the source, book-lighting just makes sure you are softening enough to fill that source (the diffusion frame) more evenly. But if you go directly through a heavy diffusion material like a 4x4 full grid or 129 diffusion, a book-light version isn't going to be any softer if all it ends up going through is a 4x4 frame.

 

I guess I'm just a bit tired of people promoting book-lights as some sort of magic method of achieving extra softness. The only way to increase softness is to increase the size of the source, so if a book-light allows you to fill, let's say, an 8x8 frame of diffusion in a small space, then it makes sense. But a 4x4 frame is not hard to fill in a small space so there isn't a lot of reasons to book-light it unless you can only get ahold of some weak diffusion material like 250 or Opal and thus need to soften the light before it hits the frame.

[Albion Hockney]

yea, fair enough! I for sure get caught up in the magic book light tendency ....they are very in vogue!

[JD Hartman]

Maybe use a Mole Fay as your daylight source, soften to your liking.

Edited October 11, 2015 by JD Hartman

[Maximilian Motel]

I did something similar to this a while ago. We used three (three windows) 1,2kW Arri HMIs with 1/2 Stop Frost on 48" Frames as main, and then two 575W for a bit of fill. If you want, I can send you a picture, unfortunately, I can't post the results yet.

 

We were shooting in Berlin, so I knew that the weather was incredibly unpredictable and we needed a constant and reliable light source, so daylight was very much out of the question. I assume Stockholm, if that's where you're shooting, might face the same problem.

[Guy Holt]

FYI Europe uses 220V, although the OP's current figures appear to be incorrect.

 

His figures are correct for Jokers distributed in North America. The reason they do not conform to Ohm’s Law (W=VA) is that Joker ballasts sold in North America are not power factor corrected (pfc) and hence draw more amps than the pfc ballasts sold in Europe. The additional current drawn by the non-pfc Joker ballasts is reactive power in so far as it does not contribute to the generation of light and consists primarily of harmonic currents. These harmonic currents can have adverse affects on portable generators and other equipment operating on the same power (use this link for more details about the adverse effects that harmonics can have on power systems.)

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer

ScreenLight & Grip

Lighting Rental & Sales in Boston

[Robin R Probyn]

why have book lights become the rage.. they seem to be used even when space isnt a problem.. source size to subject is 101 lighting.. every DP would know this.. so is there more to it ?

Edited October 18, 2015 by Robin R Probyn

[Satsuki Murashige]

Isn't it the 'guy with a hammer' syndrome? Everyone's got their own bag of tricks for how to deal with a particular lighting situation, so if that's what they know or prefer then that's what they're gonna use. In the same situation some people always go for Jem balls, others Kinos, still others bounced tungsten. As long as it works...

[Robin R Probyn]

Yes I can see that ... people have their own ways..nothing wrong with that.. but to set up,construct a book light .. is actually making a lot more work for the same quality of light.. I guess its knocking down the intensity.. but there are easier ways of doing that..

 

Maybe its a set up all the gear so the producer/client can see the money thing..

Edited October 18, 2015 by Robin R Probyn

[Jay Young]

 

 

Maybe its a set up all the gear so the producer/client can see the money thing..

 

Totally off topic, but I've been recently wondering (for the last 10 years) why producers are no longer willing to spend money on practical effects, but ARE willing to spend a good percentage of the budget on things you CANT see, in the digital world. To that end, even some lighting can be changed in post.

 

I was just watching Star Trek - The old series, and noticed on Netflix they have "enhanced" a lot of the effects with computer digital replacements and 3D models. I hate this. It's personally an aesthetic choice for me, and I'm sure there is someone out there who loves it... probably a producer.