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Any DOP that puts me up in their luxury apt when I am in LA will win fabulous cash and prizes.

 

R,

Define luxury--- I mean... I have a coffee machine. .

 

:)

 

Yea, but you still do it and in my opinion, you've been pretty successful all things considered.

 

Thanks for your on-point rebuttal, it's nice to know other people understand the power of living here as a filmmaker.

 

Getting there Tyler

 

 

@Adrian,

Well offered. Sincere. Simple. Way to redeem the thread!

Thanks Gregg. Means a good bit.

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Define luxury--- I mean... I have a coffee machine.

 

Holy geez, DOPs are making waaaaay too much money down there!

 

Don't forget you would have the opportunity to introduce your boorish new friend to all your neighbours.

 

R,

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Holy geez, DOPs are making waaaaay too much money down there!

 

Don't forget you would have the opportunity to introduce your boorish new friend to all your neighbours.

 

R,

 

We have tons of Kanuckistanians around here... the older ones fleeing cold winter and the like head for places like Yuma Arizona or Quartzite, turning the desert communities with average population in the 10's into thousands..

 

The younger ones head for various tech places and of course apropos this thread, to Hollywood...

 

We also have a large representation from Australia, and not just a certain US export and reimport... as well as New Zealand... Climate wise, So. Cal is about the same as Melbourne/Sidney or New Zealand, although New Zealand has more rain, so it may be more like Northern California...

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The Australians and New Zealanders have no business taking places away from Canadians! They have beautiful weather in BOTH countries, Canada is flipping freezing!

 

Inconsiderate Auzzies and Kiwis....sheesh!!

 

R,

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As one final note, I wanted to add that anyone who thinks bad, no-budget features hardly stand a chance at getting national distribution, I will point you to two films that I just watched this last week as evidence this is false:

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1393737/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1330208/

 

Both received national DVD distribution through MTI - both were apparently made with no budget (you'll need to watch to see what I mean), and their 'star vehicle' was a washed up Canadian wrestler.

 

Bottom line: If you have a movie of any budget with any sort of selling ability - like good cover art - it may well find a distributor. May not be Warner Bros., but some of these DVD companies will put out T-total garbage.

 

If anyone really want's to see some examples of bad movies, I'd HIGHLY recommend both of these. It'll teach you everything not to do in a no-budget fantasy film, from CC particle world wand effects to painfully obvious, 1990's video-game looking dragon models, to very bad DV-based green screen work. Then again, I guess if these got national shelf space, that should give a lot of hope to a lot of indie films...

 

BTW) Who really gave this Mark McNabb guy of Skylight films whatever little money he used to make these? I need their info so I can milk them for some money. I have an Island in Ohio I'd like to sell them

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Well Landon I could write volumes on your last post, as I'm on the front lines of this...daily. Having made and distributed four feature films now. There are quite a number of holes in your post, but like I say, I would literally have to sit here and write volumes. It would be good if you could go through the process of making and selling an indie movie, you would sure learn a lot.

 

R,

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Then again, I guess if these got national shelf space, that should give a lot of hope to a lot of indie films...

 

Define "shelf space," if you literally mean on the shelf at Walmart or Target, that most likely did not happen. Usually what happens with these titles is they get put on the Walmart web site, and die there as no one knows about them, since there is no publicity campaign. Getting shelf space at Walmart or Target for an independent movie is very very difficult.

 

I don't think you should take the philosophy that if these movies will sell, then I can make one that will sell. For every indie film actually on the shelf in major retail there are 300 that wanted to be there, and are not.

 

You would benefit greatly from a trip to AFM this year. Walk around and have a look, thousands, not hundreds of movies on sale. All of them looking for distribution, the vast majority will leave empty handed. It's incredibly difficult.

 

R,

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Walk around and have a look, thousands, not hundreds of movies on sale. All of them looking for distribution, the vast majority will leave empty handed.

 

We all know this, Richard. The only worthwhile contribution at this point is how we avoid the problem.

 

I suspect a large part (a very large part) of any realistic answer is blind, unthinking luck.

 

P

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Define "shelf space," if you literally mean on the shelf at Walmart or Target, that most likely did not happen. Usually what happens with these titles is they get put on the Walmart web site, and die there as no one knows about them, since there is no publicity campaign. Getting shelf space at Walmart or Target for an independent movie is very very difficult.

 

I don't think you should take the philosophy that if these movies will sell, then I can make one that will sell. For every indie film actually on the shelf in major retail there are 300 that wanted to be there, and are not.

 

You would benefit greatly from a trip to AFM this year. Walk around and have a look, thousands, not hundreds of movies on sale. All of them looking for distribution, the vast majority will leave empty handed. It's incredibly difficult.

 

R,

 

I actually picked up 'Secret of the runes' from the $5 bin at my local Walmart... Because it was so bad, I had to see what came before it, which I found at Amazon. So at least one ended up at Walmart - somehow.

 

It would be good if you could go through the process of making and selling an indie movie, you would sure learn a lot.

 

R,

 

:) I would like this as well. It's still amazing the utter crap that get's distributed though. I'm almost dumbfounded that movies like these were even picked up by anyone at all - given the very poor production value. I'm sure AFM has a lot of movies that will never get sold... I'm just in awe of how even one of these made it to the $5 bin at Walmart. Even more amazed I paid $5 for it...

 

BTW) Listened to your Podcast interview at Craft Truck. You make a lot of very good points and will be taken that advice to heart for future projects. If anyone is wanting to make a movie, I highly suggest listening to it: http://www.crafttruck.com/through-the-lens-podcast/business-of-film-7-with-richard-boddington-indie-producer/. Richard seems a great example to follow, starting out low budget and working his way up into working on bigger projects, and doing it successfully.

 

I'm still in awe you sold you first film based on the cover art. That is a genius move :).

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It's still amazing the utter crap that get's distributed though.

 

Yes. Yes, it is. Which is the real problem, here: you can't solve the situation by making a really good movie. Your ability to make a really good movie is irrelevant.

 

P

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Yes. Yes, it is. Which is the real problem, here: you can't solve the situation by making a really good movie. Your ability to make a really good movie is irrelevant.

Here in the US, if you make a good movie, if the script is excellent, if the production values match big hollywood films AND you have at least one known cast member, you can get decent distribution. The word "can" is critical here because if you're not good at self marketing, if you don't have the money to pay someone to do marketing and setup screenings, you'll never sell it.

 

Rule of thumb; it costs around $50k to bring in a sales agent to help sell the movie. It costs between $10k - $15k to screen a film in a particular market as well. So if you screen your movie in Los Angeles and New York, focused on those markets only to start with, it would probably cost around $80k to get your film out there and seen by people. This is HYPERCRITICAL to success because without this, without these screenings and without the press going to review your product, you are basically giving up right away.

 

Most of the budgets I do, we tack on an additional $100k to the top for marketing/sales of the movie, which starts the moment you've secured the finances to make it and ends when the film is bought. This includes marketing, screenings, making the prerequisite deliverables, plus; spanish, french, italian, german subtitles. If your film isn't brought to market by a sales agent who pushes it with that seasons portfolio, it's not going to get picked up. All of that pre-work; screenings, reviews, marketing/publicity, that's all done to attract a sales agent. The more money you pad their account with, the more they're liable to sell the movie.

 

Funny enough, we work backwards out here in L.A. We talk with sales agents and discuss what they want to sell next year. Then we sit down, write a script and build a budget around a movie they want to sell. It sounds silly and ass backwards, but unfortunately that's the business. No sales agent want's to talk to you about a shitty movie that's going direct to video, they want their films seen in the theaters.

 

So yea, that's a little break down of how it works out here. I've worked with many sales agents, I've been involved with several features that were picked up for distribution including one 10 years ago called http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0307879/ which was picked up and released in theaters, I was the colorist. Not much has changed on the quality of movies today, it's just the quantity has increased tremendously. This is why if you check off all those things I discussed first; script, production value, actors... PLUS make it current event like it's a family film about coming out of the closet, shot on film. You will get so much traction, it's not even funny.

 

This is why to do it right, really costs around $500k. Yes you can do it for less if you have one location, but honestly it's far easier to raise the appropriate money then it is to write yourself into a corner just to satisfy your measly budget. If you don't want to do it right, then forget about anyone seeing your movie and if nobody sees your movie, how will you get money to make another?

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As one final note, I wanted to add that anyone who thinks bad, no-budget features hardly stand a chance at getting national distribution, I will point you to two films that I just watched this last week as evidence this is false.

Again, dvd's at Walmart, really isn't what I'd consider a "distribution". MTI doesn't buy films really, they are the financier, the people who make films for them are employees and they're made for nothing. Since they already have a guaranteed path for making a return on their investment; VOD, Internet, Airplanes, low-end retail DVD, they can make a profit off all of them eventually. I worked for one of these companies a few years ago, it was quite amazing how they worked. They paid their crew hourly rates like a standard business. They shoot at least 3 films at once, everyone sharing duties. One show Chuck is the DP, the next show he's the director, the next show he's the sound guy. They churn out a feature in a week, usually using porn stars or people from other disciplines who had no work. Then they start an LLC for each production to make it seem like someone else made it, but in reality it was just MTI. These companies are only one step removed from the porn market and MANY of the execs behind the scenes, are prior porn filmmakers.

 

SO they have NOTHING to do with MR. "I wanna be a filmmaker, take my movie and make money from it". MTI is just a factory churning out crap one after the other. There are so many companies like it, but they are all on the edge of dying because there just isn't that much money in DVD anymore. People aren't willing to take that risk any longer.

 

Bottom line: If you have a movie of any budget with any sort of selling ability - like good cover art - it may well find a distributor. May not be Warner Bros., but some of these DVD companies will put out T-total garbage.

This is what we talked about earlier, you're very naive about this stuff. If you knew the reality of it, you'd probably stick to theatre.

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We all know this, Richard. The only worthwhile contribution at this point is how we avoid the problem.

 

I suspect a large part (a very large part) of any realistic answer is blind, unthinking luck.

 

P

 

Well I worked my ass off on all my projects, so not sure how much "blind, unthinking luck" plays into it? There is a timing factor, yes.

 

I still tell people the story of how my wife hired a gardener at our home here in Ontario. I talked with him for a while and turns out he was an ex-DOP. He gave me a couple of great contacts that were critical to me getting Dark Reprieve into the market place. Ok now what are the odds on that happening? Kinda bizarre I know.

 

Directing the movie is a piece of cake compared to pulling the financing together. Any fool can sit behind a monitor and yell action once the DOP has the shot ready. :)

 

Not sure how you avoid the problem? I wish I had came up with Paranormal Activity instead of Against The Wild, that's for sure!

 

R,

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but they are all on the edge of dying because there just isn't that much money in DVD anymore. People aren't willing to take that risk any longer.

 

There is definitely a move now by acquisitions chiefs toward, fewer, but more high quality sellable products. Making a TV sale is the new benchmark, and making a movie good enough for TV is much more difficult than making it good enough for DVD only.

 

Just FYI for would be producers, both Against The Wild films had to be pre-read by major world broadcasters and be pre-bought by the networks before the distributors would put any money in. That is very tough to do.

 

The only reason they are willing to sign a contract with no product to view is because I had a track record, and they knew I would deliver an amazing movie. :)

 

No distributor wants to pay out a big advance and be stuck with a turkey, they want guaranteed ROI.

 

R,

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MTI doesn't buy films really, they are the financier, the people who make films for them are employees and they're made for nothing.

 

Trust me, they do buy films. Sure, I'm sure they might finance some of their own, but I don't think MTI Home Video is exactly what your thinking - they are one of these lowball, Florida-based companies that picks up movies from filmmakers who made movies for no money, and then puts them into the 'market'. And to say they don't have pull - they really do, as I've seen MTI and York Entertainment, and other similar companies films on shelves even at Walmart. They DO have the retail pull to put DVD's into the market. They also have a nice little 'submission' page on their website giving very easy details for submission of completed work.

 

Not that I'd probably ever consider them, but it is worth noted their pull in retail.

 

Now rather that means success or not is up for debate. I also feel that the term 'distribution' is pretty non-standard. Your definition seems to be the traditional Hollywood definition of the term, yet many films have gone others routes to distribution and have not had any qualms about it. I suppose it depends on what the filmmakers view as success. To Mr. McNabb, I'm sure landing in the $5 bin at Walmart was a welcome sight, given the nature of the production (which was not financed by MTI by the way). Anyone who expected a theatrical release from it would be kidding themselves.

 

The bottom line that I'm trying to make here (and we can't seem to find a middle ground on agreement) is that one persons definition of success is not necessarily the next persons. What you define as success might be over the heads of some people, and what I deem as success might be consider under-achieving by you. You seem to be of the opinion that success is only what you define it as, which is making $500k feature that is released in theatres. And I'll repeat again, once persons success may not match up with another.

 

You don't even need to be in the film business to understand that concept. I'm going back for a degree in Education right now - and I cannot tell you the number of times I have been told "Are you really going to be teacher? They don't make anything and that's not a successful career". To them, I reply "Maybe not to you, but $50k a year is an okay salary to me and I like doing it".

 

Will I be successful by being a teacher compared to being a scientist or engineer? In your book, I'd venture to guess not - because I took a slightly different path than what is traditional for men to take.

 

When I said for people to THINK about a move to LA before doing it, I literal mean for them to stop and think about it. Is it REALLY what they want? Just because Hollywood is based out of California does not mean everyone who want's to work on a movie need to live in Hollywood. You can argue this point with me all you want, but the fact remains that many productions no longer shoot in CA at all, and I feel one would be better moving someplace where the market is growing, not shrinking. NOW, in the future could that market shrink too? Certainly. You know what you do then? You move to the next place that is growing - maybe that'll be LA in the future. This type of advice is not only for the film industry, it's any industry - which is why I'm offering it. If you want to work, you move where the work is.

 

It's a commonly known fact that LA is no longer the be all end all to the film industry. One need not even be in the industry to see this with their own eyes. I'm not saying that LA is a place NOT to move, or that LA might have some advantages over other cities - like the ability to network - but one needs to weigh this against their odds of success, which are not great.

 

As for an earlier statement you made that anyone wanting to work on a set in LA can do so as a PA making $100/day - I find this hard to believe. It's like the republican argument about jobs: If he just tried harder, he could get a good job!!!! No, not when there are not enough 'good' jobs for every person of working age in America.

 

But it's clear my inexperience in the film industry is a major roadblock to you taking me seriously.... Which is a shame, because so much of my advice applies not just to the film industry, but other industries as well. I feel that most of the negative feedback comes from working professionals who are ticked that someone with little experience in film is coming here offering advice. I can tell you, film is not the only industry in which that happens.

 

It's also worth noting that while I may not have on-set experience in films, I have spent the past 15 years studying everything about the industry. It may be book knowledge, but like I said - that is not a bad thing. the opinion I offer is based on straight fact, while insiders who work in the industry everyday might well be jaded. Everyone has a valid opinion, and writing off someone's opinion because of lack of on-set experience is not that great of the a thing to do.

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As for my not 'living' in CA... I was there for three weeks, were I meet up with several friends who lived there their whole lives. My opinion of LA is not only from my 3 weeks there, but from their experience living there full time. I have also lived (shortly) in Florida (just outside Universal), as well as lived just across the river from Manhattan for a little over a year... Having been to all the coasts, and having lived in the Midwest - I can tell you that coastal cities are not all they are cracked up to be.

 

From your advice Tyler, it appears you have only ever 'ventured through' anywhere other than the coastal states... You really need to spend some time in the major Midwestern cities to see exactly what kind of film industry we have. It's not barren as you might imagine. Just in Cincinnati in the past few years we have had MAJOR production shooting here... In the past 2 years we had Carol shooting downtown, with a star-studded cast. James Franco shot TWO of his films here, again with major stars. Bruce Willis shot Marauders here... That is just Cincinnati.

 

So let me tell you, we are not some redneck hicks like many coasters' think we are. We have studio spaces for rent here, we have a local company that can provide you any grip and lighting equipment you need for rental, we have a source book of talented key personal for films willing to work located on the film commission website...

 

However, let me tell you a MAJOR advantage to shooting your film here. PRESS. Lets say you put together that $500,000 movie and shoot it in LA.... Who is going to care? Nobody. At beast you're just another one of 'them', at worse you're closing peoples streets to get to work, ticking them off. HERE, a film of any size can have major local and regional press. I'm not talking about the small town paper either, I'm talking major news networks pushing your project. Not to mention it creates excitement, which means people are much more willing to 'work with you' than they are in LA.

 

Don't discount this press, because unless you're Bruce Willis yourself, you won't be getting that in LA....

 

OH, and we don't have those ungodly film permit fees like CA does, nor does our state charge us $800 a year for an LLC.

 

And all of this is a fact, rather anyone agrees with it or not.

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Funny enough, we work backwards out here in L.A. We talk with sales agents and discuss what they want to sell next year.

 

That's been my approach for a long time.

 

Unfortunately, in the old country, it works like this:

 

"What's our market?"

"There is none."

"Right OK. Let's not bother."

 

P

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Trust me, they do buy films.

Of course they do, but they won't give you anything for it. If you walked up to them and said they could buy your property for $50k, they may do it if all your ducks are in a row. But they'd rather make it themselves because they're a factory.

 

They DO have the retail pull to put DVD's into the market.

They have contracts to sell at place like Target and Walmart, but that doesn't mean much. You the filmmaker won't make a dime in those sectors.

 

The bottom line that I'm trying to make here (and we can't seem to find a middle ground on agreement) is that one persons definition of success is not necessarily the next persons. What you define as success might be over the heads of some people, and what I deem as success might be consider under-achieving by you. You seem to be of the opinion that success is only what you define it as, which is making $500k feature that is released in theatres. And I'll repeat again, once persons success may not match up with another.

What you fail to realize is that the $4.99 bin at Walmart is where movies go to die. Those are NOT success stories and if your goal is to wind up there, that's a pretty limited goal. Plus, who would ever fund your next film if your last film is in the $4.99 bin just sitting there? Well the truth is, nobody.

 

My goal is to explain how it actually works, not what you think happens, but what actually happens. You have admittedly zero experience in this arena, so to sit here and say my goal is different then your goal is just ridiculous. Everyone who wants to make movies as a filmmaker, wants to see their movie on the big screen at a normal theater. That's the goal everyone should take when making a product because it's the right goal. If you don't achieve it the first time around, so be it, but at least you tried hard and maybe missed out one thing. But to sit here and say what you've been saying... you'll make a $25,000 feature with a toy camera, non-pay crew and no known actors, which somehow leads to future success? If all you want is IMDB credits, that's one thing. If you want a bigger budget for your next project, that's the wrong way to go. There are already thousands of finished films at the market with actual known actors in them, shot on big fancy cameras, with actual budgets, with a story that's sellable, all of them way in front of you.

 

All of that to say, the "disagreement" is that you have a lot to learn. Richard didn't even want to respond to you because he probably is busy making movies... and I'm only doing it because I'm an educator and I'm waiting for a render to finish again.

 

As for an earlier statement you made that anyone wanting to work on a set in LA can do so as a PA making $100/day - I find this hard to believe.

Welcome to living in So Cal. You can get a job as an extra and PA no problem at all. Every one of my friends who moved here, landed off the plane and were working as PA's for $125/day the very next week. There is so much production here, there are literally not enough people willing to work for that low of a rate, for 16hr days. They beat you up badly, but hey, you're in the credits of a major feature film!

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I can tell you that coastal cities are not all they are cracked up to be. From your advice Tyler, it appears you have only ever 'ventured through' anywhere other than the coastal states... You really need to spend some time in the major Midwestern cities to see exactly what kind of film industry we have. It's not barren as you might imagine. Just in Cincinnati in the past few years we have had MAJOR production shooting here... In the past 2 years we had Carol shooting downtown, with a star-studded cast. James Franco shot TWO of his films here, again with major stars. Bruce Willis shot Marauders here... That is just Cincinnati.

Sure and MOST major cities have movies being made in them. However, most of the creative crew and billing cast for those major productions don't live in Cincinnati, they're usually flown in from all over the place. So even though you see a production and it's all exciting, you can't live there and work full time on films, as a creative, like you can here in California or New York. Even though the resources exist, (like they do in most modern cities) working the deals and birthing the project, needs to be done in one of the capitols of the industry.

 

I do know the advantages of shooting in small towns, I grew up shooting in one. I get the whole idea behind it and appreciate it's benefits for the simple act of production. However, making a movie isn't just about production, it really isn't. Production itself is a small part of the over all birth of your product and when those guys are done in your town, they will go back to Los Angeles or New York to "make" and "sell" the movie, which are the two most critical parts. Plus, your examples are from movies with multi-million dollar budgets, where filmmakers could go anywhere they choose.

 

Please, tell me what little indy filmmaker has made and sold their movie 100% out of Ohio, that I could or can see in the theaters. The list of movies made and sold out of California each year is... well over a few hundred. If that's not an indication of where you need to be, I honestly don't know.

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Sure and MOST major cities have movies being made in them. However, most of the creative crew and billing cast for those major productions don't live in Cincinnati, they're usually flown in from all over the place. So even though you see a production and it's all exciting, you can't live there and work full time on films, as a creative, like you can here in California or New York. Even though the resources exist, (like they do in most modern cities) working the deals and birthing the project, needs to be done in one of the capitols of the industry.

 

I do know the advantages of shooting in small towns, I grew up shooting in one. I get the whole idea behind it and appreciate it's benefits for the simple act of production. However, making a movie isn't just about production, it really isn't. Production itself is a small part of the over all birth of your product and when those guys are done in your town, they will go back to Los Angeles or New York to "make" and "sell" the movie, which are the two most critical parts. Plus, your examples are from movies with multi-million dollar budgets, where filmmakers could go anywhere they choose.

 

Please, tell me what little indy filmmaker has made and sold their movie 100% out of Ohio, that I could or can see in the theaters. The list of movies made and sold out of California each year is... well over a few hundred. If that's not an indication of where you need to be, I honestly don't know.

 

First, we'll cover the 'whats in theaters that came from Ohio' point. Well, none. But then again, none of the current releases are anything other than studio productions - so one would not expect them to originate outside of LA. I will point out though that every film made by Robert Rodriguez is made outside of CA. sure, he's no longer truly independent - but you asked for MOVIES, not just indie movies.

 

Now, I'm looking at movies available at theaters in my area - major theaters. I'm looking at the Cinema De Lux 18, AMC 18, and AMC 20 at Newport. There may be some obscure indie film that came from LA as well sitting a cinema in LA somewhere, but unless someone in Cincinnati - a metro that is 5 million people - can see it, then it's not a major enough release for me to even consider.

 

NOW, onto the final point I'll make on this subject: We are really talking about TWO different things here. Somehow, this topic became about my projects - which I had to defend, which somehow derailed thread to start on the subject of filmmaking rather than working on a film set. So, in sprite of bringing it back on track, I'll break it down into two section:

 

1. FILMMAKING, "aka: Getting a movie made"

Okay, LA is important here no doubt. Though, if you're at the point where your making a film yourself that has any budget, chances are you're either self financing or working with a studio budget, no matter how small. If you're self financing, I fail to see any financial advantage to LA. Of course, if you're working on a studio film, then yes - LA is pretty important... Though I'll again point to Robert Rodriguez that even those IN the industry need not live there to get movies made.

 

If you're goal is to fund your film via investors (good luck with that one - most investors are smart to film investing), I actually feel you'll probably have a better shot convincing a bunch of redneck doctors in Athens, Ohio to invest in your movie than anyone in LA, where they are smart to 'filmmakers'. You said it yourself, even movies shot on big cameras with big names can't find a buyer... Investors are all too aware of this.

 

There may well be some advantage to setting up an office in LA as an indie film producer... Though considering most movies that are 'made' in LA are produced elsewhere, I fail to see why one would need to live there. Given the rise of technology, offices are a dying breed period, and soon we'll all be working from home and communicating via video conference when needed.

 

BUT, like I said, if you're at the point where you have a budget like what you're talking about - say $500,000 - or better... You're no longer a small time filmmaker - and LA might well be a good move for you, even though you're better off taking that production and shooting it in a state where you can actually get tax credits - something only lottery winners can get in CA. But I digress.

 

My advice stands at this: If you want to MAKE MOVIES, as in produce your movies and things of that nature, you need a completed feature as a calling card. Short films are a dime and dozen, and no one cares about them anymore. Anyone can shoot a short film, and as such having them proves little. They are great LEARNING tools for a filmmaker, but not good calling cards. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to prove you can helm a 30 day shoot and pull all the cards together for a feature. Better yet, hopefully it got some festival press and won some awards.

 

This first feature need not be something great or even commercial. Your goal is to use this feature as your calling card, not as your multi-million dollar deal-maker. Once you're in the door with an agent, by all means move to LA and start knocking on studios doors, though your agent will likely need to get you the meetings. Until you're at that point though, LA will offer a beginning filmmaker little support. You'll move there, end up working fast food to pay your bills, and never get that film made that will be your calling card.

 

2. WORKING on a set, aka "Hi, I'm a Dolly grip and need a job"

Well, move wherever there is work. Below the line crew are not involved with the pre-production, development, or most of the post production process. They are involved with one area: Production. And that fact still remains that many films being PRODUCED out of CA are being shot elsewhere. These production do not fly in all their cast and crew from Hollywood. Sure, they might their key positions like Director, DP, First AD, Production Manager, and some below the line like Key Grip and equal positions. If you want to work below the line, I'd suggest moving to a place where there are lots of productions, IF YOU WANT TO DO IT FULL TIME. LA is one place you can move, Vancouver BC is another.... Atlanta is another, New York has a lot of TV shows... Chicago has an active though shrinking industry... Atlanta is hot right now.

 

And you know, you move there and work on productions. If that market dries up, you move where the market is growing or where work is available. If you want to work in the film industry, and you're not involved with a studio or some post production processes, you're going to expect to have to move around a lot.

 

As for networking, well - you can network anywhere. Sure, in LA you might run into the VP of acquisition at Warner Bros. while having a martini in the pool, but you do know the odds of such a meeting are not as good as winning the lottery? Even if that meeting happens, unless you hit it off it probably won't go anywhere. Sure, you could run into other filmmakers have dinner with them, build relationships, etc... And that is great as well - if not far fetched. As a below the line crew member though, you're going to 'work your way up' no matter where you live, and many of the job's you'll be able to obtain on resume status.

 

NOW:

 

working the deals and birthing the project, needs to be done in one of the capitols of the industry.

Yes, if you're making an industry product. Not all filmmakers are interested in that. Some just want to make their art. Some just want to make movies for fun.

 

 

everyone who wants to make movies as a filmmaker, wants to see their movie on the big screen at a normal theater.

Glad to know you're speaking for all filmmakers. I'm sure there are a few that could give a hoot about cinema - which is now the domain of studio blockbusters and horror remakes. But those people aren't 'professionals' in your book. A 'filmmaker' is anyone who has made a movie. Technically, I'm a filmmaker because I helped to produce a documentary. So technically, you're speaking for me as well. Honestly, I have no ambitions for Cinema. Why? Because I'm a realistic person. One day I'd like to work with Television shows possibly, but right now I'm more concerned about art than I am becoming the next Spielberg.

 

Of course, if someone wants to hire me to direct a theatrical film I'm not turning them down (considering I like it), but I'm not naive enough to expect it, or 'wait until it happens'.

 

My goal is to explain how it actually works, not what you think happens, but what actually happens.

Again, you're talking about ONE type of filmmaking - the professional kind with big budgets that are planning to go international. Not all filmmakers are ready for that yet, and you seem to assume that anyone who is not ready for that should just bide their time til they are. I'm not a member of that bandwagon, even though many on here probably are. The whole 'earn your way up' so to speak attitude is strong on this forum. However, I do not buy it. In my life, I have hardly ever 'earned my way up'.... I go for broke from the get-go. Most of the time you'll fail, but that is not true all the time.

 

Mainly, I'm not discounting LA.... BUT, I am saying you need a feature calling card before you go out there if you want to be taken seriously. I'm saying this feature need not be a commercial project, rather it should be one that gets screened at festivals - wins some awards - and gives you some bragging power. Once you have this, go get the funding for (and make) your first foray into the $500k budget filmmaking.

 

I'll conclude this topic by saying this: Many filmmakers started making their own features with their own money, and often times without major stars. You want to talk about Richard Boddington? He made his first film that way - self funded with no stars attached.

 

My point is one that is shared by more than just me, and it's that you don't need big stars in your movie for it to sell. You DO, however, need something that will give it selling power. The more of these you have, the better your chances... But you certainly don't need ALL of the possible ducks in place to sell a movie.

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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From your advice Tyler, it appears you have only ever 'ventured through' anywhere other than the coastal states... You really need to spend some time in the major Midwestern cities to see exactly what kind of film industry we have. It's not barren as you might imagine. Just in Cincinnati in the past few years we have had MAJOR production shooting here... In the past 2 years we had Carol shooting downtown, with a star-studded cast. James Franco shot TWO of his films here, again with major stars. Bruce Willis shot Marauders here... That is just Cincinnati.

 

 

Here in my neck of the woods, about 45 miles to the south of me in San Diego a major motion picture in part was shot... and was at the time the biggest success in the almighty box office... big outdoor stage, big crew... lots of locals hired as extras... then the production closed down... and as time went on fewer productions made at the facility... etc... till now its a 'filmmaking ghosttown'... on the website associated with the facility the last entries are around 2012... for films that were far less than block buster...

 

The point being, just because a Hollywood production comes through, perhaps several over some period of time, does not mean the infrastructure is built for local filmmaking to continue after the big productions move to other regions because of one reason or another...

 

There is a debate whether Hollywood productions 'help' a region in developing a filmmaking infrastructure or because of the episodic nature of the location selection, sort of boosts expectations, but never realized.

 

In the case of Rosarito Mexico and the production facility built to support the making of "Titanic"(1997)... the beautific vision didn't happen.

Edited by John E Clark
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you'll make a $25,000 feature with a toy camera, non-pay crew and no known actors

 

$25,000 yes - though considering much of what normally constitutes a larger budget will be moved to the back end, the actual production value of whats on screen should exceed $25,000 as might be spent on a movie where we need to rent equipment, pay cast and crew, etc. Considering we can find quality actors of course.

 

For example, I own ALL my own equipment. Dolly? Check. 12' Jib? Check. Camera support? Check. Descent lighting package? Check. Most of that $25,000 will go right to the screen - props, costumes, sets, etc.

 

And excuse me, but a TOY? I spent nearly $3,000 on that camera and all it's accessories. I have invested close to $5,000 in production equipment alone, not to mention the $5,000 it took to outfit my editing suite with all the software and hardware. While that may be a toy to big Hollywood filmmakers like you, it took a while to save up to buy that camera and the support needed to make it work. But again, this is just more of that elitist Hollywood attitude where we compare the size of our camera's rather than the end product on the screen.

 

Camera's don't make movies - filmmakers do. My 'toy' in the right hands can out-perfect your red in the wrong hand, and someone with experience can make both camera's look near identical in image quality. Though now you'll probably try to tell me 'real movies shoot on FILM'! I feel I can make the image quality from my GH4 look pretty good, and given my background in photography I feel secure in doing it.

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First, we'll cover the 'whats in theaters that came from Ohio' point. Well, none.

That would be correct and guess what, that's probably never going to change.

 

There are PLENTY of indy films represented on the open market every year. May I remind you that Whiplash almost won an oscar and you don't get more indy then that. In 2015 there were quite a few internationally distributed indy films. The problem is, when you live in Ohio, you don't even know they exist. Why would any theater chain bother brining indy films to your town? There is just no reason. If they want to make money, the focus on the big cities that have several art houses. Again one of the benefits of living in Los Angeles, there is an audience for pretty much anything.

 

I will point out though that every film made by Robert Rodriguez is made outside of CA. I fail to see any financial advantage to LA.

It's true that most of his films have been made in Texas, but thats because he made a studio for himself. He wants to work around home and I don't blame him, it's why I like Los Angeles. Plus, he is absolutely in the minority. There are very few people like him in this country and most of them live in media-rich cities.

 

There are literally thousands of sources for financing within a 50 mile radius. You can take 3 meetings a day for months without hitting up everyone. Plus, you find financing in the strangest of places. As Adrian said earlier, you literally bump into people at screenings and next thing you know, your film is financed. So yea, being here is a HUGE benefit to the financial aptitude of your product. It doesn't make it any easier, but it does open up a lot more doors.

 

If you're goal is to fund your film via investors (good luck with that one - most investors are smart to film investing), I actually feel you'll probably have a better shot convincing a bunch of redneck doctors in Athens, Ohio to invest in your movie than anyone in LA, where they are smart to 'filmmakers'. You said it yourself, even movies shot on big cameras with big names can't find a buyer... Investors are all too aware of this.

Absolutely, but what you're looking for isn't a one-time payment. You should be looking for a partnership (executive producer), someone who can help finance every movie you make. That's one thing that's much harder to do with a bunch of redneck doctors who you're about to screw with your first movie.

 

BUT, like I said, if you're at the point where you have a budget like what you're talking about - say $500,000 - or better... You're no longer a small time filmmaker - and LA might well be a good move for you.

And you really can't write, prep, shoot, edit, finish and distribute much of anything worth while with a decent cast for much less then $500k. In fact, most of the ultra-low indies I work on are in the 1.5 - 5M ranges.

 

My advice stands at this: If you want to MAKE MOVIES, as in produce your movies and things of that nature, you need a completed feature as a calling card. Short films are a dime and dozen, and no one cares about them anymore. Anyone can shoot a short film, and as such having them proves little. They are great LEARNING tools for a filmmaker, but not good calling cards. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to prove you can helm a 30 day shoot and pull all the cards together for a feature. Better yet, hopefully it got some festival press and won some awards.

As anyone with a modicum of experience knows; 6 minutes of outstanding content, trumps 90 minutes of crappy content. Not only are there many short film festivals, but there are qualified buyers at those festivals, looking for the next big guy. You may not get them to watch your 90 minute drama shot on a handicam in your backyard, made for a few peanuts, but you will get them to watch your 6 minute short with all that money on screen where it belongs. 10 peanuts go a lot further with 6 minutes of content then they do with 90.

 

Now it's true, once you've proven yourself to be a competent filmmaker, then it's easy to show people what you've done and find a producer with feature credits to help nurse the longer project along. People are so fixated on feature-length, they're almost blinded by the reality; they first need to find tune their skills as a filmmaker, before breaking into a much bigger project.

 

This first feature need not be something great or even commercial. Your goal is to use this feature as your calling card, not as your multi-million dollar deal-maker. Once you're in the door with an agent, by all means move to LA and start knocking on studios doors, though your agent will likely need to get you the meetings.

Doesn't matter if it's a short, music video or 60 second advertisement. In reality, quality is #1 and the only thing that matters to an agent. If the content you produce is going direct to Walmart, no agent with any clients is going to talk with you. Remember, agents are just like actors, most really suck and the top ones get all the good jobs. The goal isn't to get "an agent" the goal is to produce such amazing products, you attract a top agent who can place you into a position knowing you'll do a good job.

 

Until you're at that point though, LA will offer a beginning filmmaker little support. You'll move there, end up working fast food to pay your bills, and never get that film made that will be your calling card.

What? no support? Hogwash! There is more support here then anywhere else in the country, maybe the world. If you need a gaffer with a grip truck for a few hundred dollars a day, there are 50 of them waiting for your call. If you need a camera for almost nothing, there are rental houses willing to negotiate. Everything you could possibly need is here and ready for you, including jobs on set, where you can work from now until you're tired of it. No filmmakers are working in fast food, they're out busy working on projects OR have some sort of a normal full time job. It's the actors who fill the coffee shops, only because they have flexible hours for casting calls. Best thing about Los Angeles when it comes to jobs is that if you like filmmaking, and you're good at a particular task, you can work your way up the ladder as a tradesman pretty quickly. Yes, you have to be outgoing to do that, work long hours and sometimes at super crazy times of the day, but it's absolutely possible and happens every day, if it's what you want.

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As for networking, well - you can network anywhere. Sure, in LA you might run into the VP of acquisition at Warner Bros. while having a martini in the pool, but you do know the odds of such a meeting are not as good as winning the lottery? Even if that meeting happens, unless you hit it off it probably won't go anywhere. Sure, you could run into other filmmakers have dinner with them, build relationships, etc... And that is great as well - if not far fetched.

Yea well, again you have limited experience on this subject. Adrian already gave some great examples of the people he's met on accident and how it's allowed his career to take off. It has nothing to do with meeting an executive, those people don't talk to you. It has to do with meeting someone just like you, another filmmaker who maybe has better connections then you do. It's about meeting 50 of those guys and they're easy to find because they're everywhere! If you're humble, outgoing and have the gift of gab, you will build relationships fast. Everyone has an "industry' business card on them, from the truck drivers to the VP's. They hand them out like they're free and if you stay in contact with them, if you kindle the fire so to speak, things will come of it. Most of your time is playing this ground game, talking with people in person, going to parties, going to screenings, just being visible all the time. Another part is always having a film in production on IMDB, which is why short's are so awesome. Just keep banging them out, so your facebook page is full of new/up to date on-set pictures, so your IMDB is growing fast, so your linked in page and personal website makes you look like you're in a thousand different places at once. Then when you hand someone your business card, and visa versa, you can look at each other and see what it's all about. This kind of networking is only done on the streets of Los Angeles, nowhere else can you do this and honestly, it's critical.

 

One thing I learned years ago is that telephone calls don't mean poop anymore. People in this industry won't trust you until they know you personally OR know someone personally who can vouch for you. So you can be remote all you want, it doesn't work to the level you think it does, especially if you have nothing to backup your claims.

 

This is the game we play, this is how you play it, there is really no other way unless you are a tradesmen. As you said, those jobs can be done everywhere and anywhere. Though "specialists" are generally based out of entertainment capitols like Los Angeles, San Fransisco, New York, Chicago, Georgia, etc.

 

Honestly, I have no ambitions for Cinema. Why? Because I'm a realistic person. One day I'd like to work with Television shows possibly, but right now I'm more concerned about art than I am becoming the next Spielberg. Of course, if someone wants to hire me to direct a theatrical film I'm not turning them down (considering I like it), but I'm not naive enough to expect it, or 'wait until it happens'.

Well, television is an entirely different industry. Sure, single camera television drama's mimmic how films are made, so the "crew" are the same. But the television industry itself, is very different. If you want to be in television, you should get a job as an assistant for a successful producer and learn. You need to learn what a real TV producer does, you need to shadow them. This is actually possible here in L.A. It may take you a while to find the right person, but that's how you start. Once groomed, it's very easy for that person to recommend you to a network where you can get a job as a junior producer and work your way up the ladder. I know many people who have followed this route to success, one of them literally just left my house, she works for Disney and started as an assistant, now is lead producer for disney TV animation and she can't be a day over 30 years old. Pretty amazing if you ask me! But that story I hear constantly. It's a burn out job, but man does it pay well and eventually you can be a show runner, producing your own content. Otherwise, taking the short road like you want can be two fold. One... you succeed and you continue making products. Two you fail miserably and everyone who sees your products are turned away.

 

The whole 'earn your way up' so to speak attitude is strong on this forum. However, I do not buy it. In my life, I have hardly ever 'earned my way up'.... I go for broke from the get-go. Most of the time you'll fail, but that is not true all the time.

Well, that's the truth. You can ask anyone who's been successful in the film industry and they have the same story, including myself. Everyone has worked hard and moved up the latter to be where they are today.

 

I'm saying this feature need not be a commercial project, rather it should be one that gets screened at festivals - wins some awards - and gives you some bragging power. Once you have this, go get the funding for (and make) your first foray into the $500k budget filmmaking.

What!?! What are you talking about? You won't get into festivals OR win awards without making a commercial viable product. How many festivals have you been to? Dude, this idea you have is delusional.

 

I'll conclude this topic by saying this: Many filmmakers started making their own features with their own money, and often times without major stars. You want to talk about Richard Boddington? He made his first film that way - self funded with no stars attached.

I think Richards first feature cost a million dollars, you'll have to ask him, but that's what it says online. You can do a lot for a million dollars, you can do a lot for $500k, but you can't do much with $25k.

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Plenty of big movies and TV shows are indeed shot outside of LA, but those projects don't ORIGINATE there. They still start in LA, and are shot in those outside locations for tax breaks and/or story purposes. For the big shows, these cities are at the mercy of Hollywood deciding to shoot there. Hopefully there's enough of a market for corporate videos, commercials, and other locally originating (and well-paying) video work in these cities that keeps the workers employed when there's no big movie or TV show. The films that do originate in these other markets usually don't pay very well. Chances are the people there work a feature every now and then because that's ultimately what they want to work on, but they really pay the bills with other types of video work. I'm not saying everyone in LA always gets to work on features and TV shows, but at least in LA there's a bigger chance that you can work on a feature or TV show that also pays decently.

 

The shooting itself on movies and TV happen more outside of LA than before, but the movie/TV business itself is still very much LA-centric. Key department heads still typically come from LA (and the same with the actors, except for smaller parts). If you're okay that level of work, or if you simply want to gain experience in a smaller but vibrant market before going to LA, that's fine. But if you want to get beyond a certain point, LA is still the place to be.

Edited by Ravi Kiran
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