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Where to buy diffusion and gels in UK


Lee Burnett

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Didn't we already have a thread about this? C-stands normally come with a grip head/gobo arm. That allows flexibility, precision, speed when placing screens/flags etc. But you can put the grip head/gobo arm on other stands with the right spigot.

 

It came up before but clearly I didn't get the full extent of it.

 

The arm appears to be just a rod of metal and I can get cheap grip heads that are made by a company called Matthews that look okay, so the c-stands are looking out of the picture really. Unless I'm still not getting something...

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A C stand is just a stand that has a small footprint, making it very useful in a cramped studio. The design of the legs makes it possible to 'stack' the stands very close together, which is useful if you need to set multiple flags, nets or frames in a tight space. If space isn't an issue, then a combo stand provides better stability and a higher load rating.

 

Pretty basic stuff.

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A C stand is just a stand that has a small footprint, making it very useful in a cramped studio. The design of the legs makes it possible to 'stack' the stands very close together, which is useful if you need to set multiple flags, nets or frames in a tight space. If space isn't an issue, then a combo stand provides better stability and a higher load rating.

 

Pretty basic stuff.

 

I was led to believe that c-stands were a must have item but now I finally understand why they are so rare in the UK.

Thanks Stuart! :)

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heh heh!

 

Got to be said... London again! :)

 

 

Is this because you get a lot of people from London trying to cheap out on things like this?

 

I get that it's not good to be cheap over things and bodge job it. I have budget for C-stands if there's nothing else that can match up to them, that's why I've asked about people's solutions.

What's the least I should be looking for in a c-stand? The prices vary so much and I don't want to get a knock-off version that won't last.

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And I don't think there's a huge difference between 'indie' filmmakers and higher budget things. It could be a matter of months, or vary job to job. I do a lot of high budget jobs as camera operator, I've just never had to buy gels or diffs myself. So if a company was to smugly turn me away because I'm 'only an indie filmmaker' then it's highly unlikely I'll go back there when I'm looking to rent a lot more kit.

 

I'm doing a lot more personal projects on the side with friends - small crew documentary, 2 or 3 crew max, and that means I need a lightweight set-up that's adaptable. Getting 3 extremely heavy c-stands may end up causing more issues on shoots like this. Hence why I started this thread.

 

Anyway, there's been a lot of interesting and useful tips here, so thanks guys.

Edited by Lee Burnett
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I was led to believe that c-stands were a must have item but now I finally understand why they are so rare in the UK.

 

You're joking, right? They're a basic part of any lighting package bigger than an interview kit, and there was certainly no shortage of them on any set I ever worked on in the UK.

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A heavy stand is a good stand - it's less likely to blow or be knocked over. That's why I always prefer to use big old combo stands when I'm outdoors. Those buggers weigh 13kg a piece, but the weight makes them stable and safe. And if you've got thousands of dollars of light sitting on top of a stand, you want it to be safe.

 

C-stands are sturdy, versatile and a managable weight. That's why they're a standard.

 

Forking out a few hundred dollars for a stand that will make itself useful every single day you shoot for the next 20 years, isn't something I'd consider an expensive proposition - it's a no-brainer investment.

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And I don't think there's a huge difference between 'indie' filmmakers and higher budget things.

 

There isn't, at least in terms of audience expectation. Unfortunately, as you're finding, there is a huge gulf between the facilities available to filmmakers at each end of the market.

 

Many people here have worked on high-end stuff and low-end stuff. The difference in the UK is that there is a small amount of extremely high-end work, such as the stuff you've done and the stuff Mr. Brereton has worked on, and then there's an absolutely enormous amount of stuff that is so cheap that even a stand really is an expensive proposition.

 

There is almost nothing inbetween and that's the problem with the UK. There's the next Bond movie, then there's the London equivalent of Craigslist, and at the low end nobody's paying you for your gear. Ever. You're lucky to get fuel money.

 

If you don't mind coming to pick them up you can borrow mine...

 

P

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Mark, I totally agree with you on all of those points. I only asked the question to see alternatives before forking out for them. I've already decided to buy two c-stands... combo stands do seem better so I'll have a think.

 

And Phil, I totally agree with you. My only experience is working in the UK. Having spent a lot on kit in the past 2 or 3 years, I can safely say it isn't easy. And I realise that even that amount is relatively small, and I don't have half of what I need. If I didn't love what I do, I'd definitely do something else. But luckily I really enjoy it, and getting new kit feels like christmas every time.

 

Thanks for the offer of borrowing yours, I really appreciate it, but I'll just buy a couple of c-stands. I realise they'll last forever and I do need them.

Edited by Lee Burnett
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The arm appears to be just a rod of metal and I can get cheap grip heads that are made by a company called Matthews that look okay, so the c-stands are looking out of the picture really.

 

 

Here's what I called a grip head and gobo arm.

 

post-47078-0-92754600-1455503557_thumb.jpg

 

If you can get this cheap from Mathews and add it to the stands you prefer, well done.

 

As I think I said on previously, on another thread, C-stands with arms can look all rough, rusty etc and still work fine, so there is always an oportunity for indies or artist who want to own rather than rent. Or, third option, own some cooperatively.

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As I think I said on previously, on another thread, C-stands with arms can look all rough, rusty etc and still work fine, so there is always an oportunity for indies or artist who want to own rather than rent. Or, third option, own some cooperatively.

 

 

As we've said before, there aren't rusty old used c-stands available here. It's very rare that you see second hand c-stands for sale.

 

There is something weird around c-stands in the UK because at the BSC show one company had on their stand these special huge trolleys that were packed with c-stands. I had never seen so many, even at a rental house and yet I overheard some conversation with a member of the BSC who seemed concerned about the condition and availability of the c-stands he could get. I wish I had listened more closely but I didn't think that much of it at the time. I think maybe because they last a long time, that rental houses here stretch out their use as long as they can.

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Here's what I called a grip head and gobo arm.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_20160215_152642.jpg

 

If you can get this cheap from Mathews and add it to the stands you prefer, well done.

 

Yes I can get the grip head relatively cheaply. They look the same as your picture only new and in black. They are made by a company called Matthews although I'm not sure if you can buy them directly from Matthews themselves, it's an interesting idea!

 

The Gobo arm appears to just be a metal rod with a slightly less versatile grip head mounted on one end. I'd be inclined to just get two grip heads and a metal rod from somewhere that doesn't make special cinema stuff so to speak!

Edited by Freya Black
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Is this because you get a lot of people from London trying to cheap out on things like this?

 

I think to say that people are trying to "cheap out" is being a bit mean as I think there are genuine issues around budget.

 

It's more to do with how harsh the low budget world in London can be, but on the upside it leads to a lot of creativity to work around the issues. :)

Edited by Freya Black
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Sorry Freya, I thought your first post was a slight about people without budget asking the same questions all the time. I'm new to this forum, some forums can be pretty heated about that sort of thing ha.

So you reckon if I just bought some metal rod and 2 gobo heads, then I could attach that to a combo stand / c-stand as I please?

 

Is the rod 15mm?

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The fixed arms aren't quite the same thing as a separate grip head with a rod. Attaching a second grip head to a rod, requires screwing the head onto the rod, and you can rarely get a solid hold in my experience - the rods are smooth, so the screw just doesn't hold in place unless you're denting the rod with it.

 

It's a little hack I attempted once to save money and acquire more grip heads at the same time, but I learnt pretty much immediately that you need a dedicated grip arm to do a grip arm's job.

Edited by Mark Kenfield
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A C stand is just a stand that has a small footprint, making it very useful in a cramped studio. The design of the legs makes it possible to 'stack' the stands very close together, which is useful if you need to set multiple flags, nets or frames in a tight space. If space isn't an issue, then a combo stand provides better stability and a higher load rating.

 

Just to clarify, I thought Stuart really hit the nail on the head with this description. I have been on all kinds of sets in the UK. I used to work on student films up North on a regular basis. I've been on the set of a large BBC production. I've been on the sets of loads of no-budget and Ultra Low budget movies and never once have I seen a c-stand in use. I seem to remember there were some on the truck for "Rock 'N Rolla" the Guy Ritchie movie (I wasn't on set for that) but that would be a very high budget movie in the UK outside of the Hollywood Studio films that shoot here.

 

In any case I've never been able to understand the constant absence of c-stands but now that Stuart describes them in the way he just did it all makes sense.

 

Stuart describes setting multiple flags,frames and nets in a tight space but while we definitely have the tight space in the UK, it's rare that you see people get into anything too complicated with flags, frames or nets. You will tend to see something more like one large diffusion frame or possibly bounce (assuming they aren't bouncing a 2K off the ceiling). As the sets get bigger this kind of thing tends to get scaled up with even larger frames and bigger light fixtures on hydraulic stands. The further you go upwards in budget the more it tends to become large fixtures and big frames. There might sometimes be a small amount of flags used.

 

For myself when I'm involved in the cinematography it tends to be on scary low budget stuff where I'm providing a lot of equipment. I should clarify there, I don't mean I'm providing a lot of actual equipment, I just mean I'm providing most of the equipment the production has access to, which isn't a lot. I might be more inclined to flag off light or do something complicated in a tight space with flags and diffusion and gels etc. However I should note that when I say flags I mean cardboard, and when I talk about diffusion it's usually somewhat free hanging (on the upside it doesn't get blown over in a breeze). These days I have real gels which I am so thankful for. For me having a range of lighting gel on hand is a really basic requirement.

 

Getting back to what Stuart described. If you aren't doing that much with flags and nets etc, then a combo stand will be way more useful because it will be more secure and as I already described, the larger you go in the UK the more it is about large fixtures and big frames.

 

So why is this? I think it's a whole bunch of stuff but mostly it comes down to economics and budget. I think on the cheaper TV stuff there just isn't the time to set a bunch of flags and nets and use a range of smaller fixtures etc and so a style has evolved that obliviates the need for all that. It thus quickly becomes about large punchy lights and big frames. If something more controlled is needed it will tend to be a smaller fixture and some black wrap integrated in some way into the landscape of large punchy lights and big frames. This means in theory that everything can go much faster although in my experience of low end UK TV, there seems to be a huge amount of time and effort wasted on indecision and a lot of the people on set seem like they are bored with their job and can't wait till it is all over. I've been shocked by what I have seen on BBC sets especially although I have experienced too small a sample to make a realistic judgment on that.

 

On tiny low budget stuff it tends to be a lot of smaller fixtures because that is what is available and there is no generator etc.

In this context there is maybe more flagging and nets etc etc, or at least there is when I'm doing this stuff but at the same time there is no real budget for anything so it's more of a cardboard and gaffa tape affair. Some c-stands might be really useful to me, but even if I had them, I would have the issue of transporting them (unless it was a studio based shoot I guess). So even for me, combo stands would probably make more sense, especially if you are limited in what you have available already.

 

It was only when Stuart wrote what he did that I suddenly realised that c-stands are rarely needed in the UK with a few exceptions. It thus makes sense that I have rarely seen them in real life and it might also answer why members of the BSC might be concerned about the c-stands that are available to them because BSC members might be a bit out of step with the greater industry.

 

This has long been a bit of a mystery to me because if I had a proper budget then I might like to have access to some c-stands... but then I'm used to working with tiny budgets and multiple tiny fixtures with no generator whereas people with a budget aren't working in that way for the most part.

 

Hope that's all clear. Might be hard for those of you outside of the UK to get your head round but it does make sense.

 

Freya

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Just to clarify, I thought Stuart really hit the nail on the head with this description. I have been on all kinds of sets in the UK. I used to work on student films up North on a regular basis. I've been on the set of a large BBC production. I've been on the sets of loads of no-budget and Ultra Low budget movies and never once have I seen a c-stand in use. I seem to remember there were some on the truck for "Rock 'N Rolla" the Guy Ritchie movie (I wasn't on set for that) but that would be a very high budget movie in the UK outside of the Hollywood Studio films that shoot here.

 

In any case I've never been able to understand the constant absence of c-stands but now that Stuart describes them in the way he just did it all makes sense.

 

Stuart describes setting multiple flags,frames and nets in a tight space but while we definitely have the tight space in the UK, it's rare that you see people get into anything too complicated with flags, frames or nets. You will tend to see something more like one large diffusion frame or possibly bounce (assuming they aren't bouncing a 2K off the ceiling). As the sets get bigger this kind of thing tends to get scaled up with even larger frames and bigger light fixtures on hydraulic stands. The further you go upwards in budget the more it tends to become large fixtures and big frames. There might sometimes be a small amount of flags used.

 

For myself when I'm involved in the cinematography it tends to be on scary low budget stuff where I'm providing a lot of equipment. I should clarify there, I don't mean I'm providing a lot of actual equipment, I just mean I'm providing most of the equipment the production has access to, which isn't a lot. I might be more inclined to flag off light or do something complicated in a tight space with flags and diffusion and gels etc. However I should note that when I say flags I mean cardboard, and when I talk about diffusion it's usually somewhat free hanging (on the upside it doesn't get blown over in a breeze). These days I have real gels which I am so thankful for. For me having a range of lighting gel on hand is a really basic requirement.

 

Getting back to what Stuart described. If you aren't doing that much with flags and nets etc, then a combo stand will be way more useful because it will be more secure and as I already described, the larger you go in the UK the more it is about large fixtures and big frames.

 

So why is this? I think it's a whole bunch of stuff but mostly it comes down to economics and budget. I think on the cheaper TV stuff there just isn't the time to set a bunch of flags and nets and use a range of smaller fixtures etc and so a style has evolved that obliviates the need for all that. It thus quickly becomes about large punchy lights and big frames. If something more controlled is needed it will tend to be a smaller fixture and some black wrap integrated in some way into the landscape of large punchy lights and big frames. This means in theory that everything can go much faster although in my experience of low end UK TV, there seems to be a huge amount of time and effort wasted on indecision and a lot of the people on set seem like they are bored with their job and can't wait till it is all over. I've been shocked by what I have seen on BBC sets especially although I have experienced too small a sample to make a realistic judgment on that.

 

On tiny low budget stuff it tends to be a lot of smaller fixtures because that is what is available and there is no generator etc.

In this context there is maybe more flagging and nets etc etc, or at least there is when I'm doing this stuff but at the same time there is no real budget for anything so it's more of a cardboard and gaffa tape affair. Some c-stands might be really useful to me, but even if I had them, I would have the issue of transporting them (unless it was a studio based shoot I guess). So even for me, combo stands would probably make more sense, especially if you are limited in what you have available already.

 

It was only when Stuart wrote what he did that I suddenly realised that c-stands are rarely needed in the UK with a few exceptions. It thus makes sense that I have rarely seen them in real life and it might also answer why members of the BSC might be concerned about the c-stands that are available to them because BSC members might be a bit out of step with the greater industry.

 

This has long been a bit of a mystery to me because if I had a proper budget then I might like to have access to some c-stands... but then I'm used to working with tiny budgets and multiple tiny fixtures with no generator whereas people with a budget aren't working in that way for the most part.

 

Hope that's all clear. Might be hard for those of you outside of the UK to get your head round but it does make sense.

 

Freya

I respect what you're saying Freya, but honestly I don't understand where you get this? as I commented before, I was absolutely certain you are being sarcastic in the beginning saying C-stand are not used in the UK.

 

I could understand why they will be less C-stands or no stands on an ultra low budget shoot, that's mainly due to the fact that many people in London are amateurs that claim that they know what they're doing and they just don't know how to use lights if they did they would have rented some c-stands, sand bags and flags as its really cheap to rent and make it all the difference, are you're suppose to cut and shape light shooting interiors?

 

On TV it's different, TV lighting (like BBC you mentioned) could be very different then proper film lighting in many ways, it really depends on the show.

 

From my experience, on every professional film shoot or drama shoot in the UK, US, France or anywhere else, they will be a bunch of C-stands waiting or used at any given time.

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The fixed arms aren't quite the same thing as a separate grip head with a rod. Attaching a second grip head to a rod, requires screwing the head onto the rod, and you can rarely get a solid hold in my experience - the rods are smooth, so the screw just doesn't hold in place unless you're denting the rod with it.

 

It's a little hack I attempted once to save money and acquire more grip heads at the same time, but I learnt pretty much immediately that you need a dedicated grip arm to do a grip arm's job.

 

Thanks Mark!

 

Yes that's exactly the way I was thinking. Save a little cash and grip heads are more versatile than the fixed heads on the arm, so it might be handy to have a couple.

 

The thing is that I understand that the head that is fixed to the arm is only held in place there with a bolt too, so perhaps they have dented the rod or something to make a more secure fit. I will have to get a better look at a conventional gobo arm and see how it is working.

 

It's good that you warned be about this though, so thanks! :)

 

Freya

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I could understand why they will be less C-stands or no stands on an ultra low budget shoot, that's mainly due to the fact that many people in London are amateurs that claim that they know what they're doing and they just don't know how to use lights if they did they would have rented some c-stands, sand bags and flags as its really cheap to rent and make it all the difference, are you're suppose to cut and shape light shooting interiors?

 

You don't understand. You could call this level of working amateur if you want, I don't have an issue with that. People call all kinds of things amateur or professional and thats fine. I don't think it means that much beyond what is kind of accepted practice and that varies. It might be a bit of a jump to suggest that people don't know what they are doing. That is a different thing although I'm sure there is plenty of that going on too. To be honest I have seen plenty of that on BBC shoots too.

 

The thing is that regardless of whether you know what you are doing or not it can be problematic. You say it is really cheap to rent c-stands and sand bags and flags but that just isn't true. To be honest sand bags are not a problem at all. The lack of decent stands can be at least for me but I can work around it and something like combo stands might be more useful. Flags I can get away with carboard etc, it works fine, especially when you don't have any c-stands anyway. You actually need to know more about what you are doing at this kind of level than on the higher end stuff. Sadly this way of working doesn't translate much into working at a higher level but then working on this stuff doesn't tend to lead to working on stuff at a higher level anyway.

 

There are two big problems with what you are saying. You are probably looking at a rental list and thinking the stands don't seem that expensive. Firstly the idea that the rental house will be okay if you rock over there and say you just want a few flags and some c-stands. Some of the rental houses are really helpful but this is costly to them and will become quite tired for them quite quickly. The bigger issue in London is transporting the stuff because it's quite rare in London for people to have cars and stuff because the place is so gridlocked. Lastly there is the issue of the budgets being really pathetic and I would rather get paid than have a c-stand or two on set.

 

This has been a thing for years here. Once it was that film labs would do all kinds of stuff to look after you like process your test rolls for free etc. Yes this was probably true if you had an existing relationship with the lab and put a lot of stuff through there but I know whenever I would talk to the labs they would not only not process my test roll for free but would point out that they had a £100 minimum. These days none of that stuff goes on (well they still have the lab minimums) and people are treated more equally at labs but probably nobody is getting their test rolls processed for free anymore. People don't realise that the way they are treated at a lab or a rental house is often not the way everyone else is treated.

 

This is why a lot of smart cinematographers work hard to build up a relationship with a rental house and try not to own equipment. It isn't just about the owning the equipment and all the issues around that but the relationship you have with a rental house can be important. If you put some big jobs through them they might help you through the leaner times.

 

As to how you are supposed to cut and shape light on interiors, I have described the different ways this is done in my earlier posting. Both how I might do that and how it might be done on a cheap BBC production.

 

Freya

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On TV it's different, TV lighting (like BBC you mentioned) could be very different then proper film lighting in many ways, it really depends on the show.

 

From my experience, on every professional film shoot or drama shoot in the UK, US, France or anywhere else, they will be a bunch of C-stands waiting or used at any given time.

 

The key word here is professional which is a bit of a meaningless word that can mean anything anyone wants it too. For example we have just established in this posting that they TV lighting at the BBC doesn't fit into your idea of professional. I don't mind that because professional is a bit of a meaningless term anyway but in order to understand what you mean I need to understand what you mean by a professional film or drama shoot in the UK , US or France. So maybe you could give some examples of what you mean or something. I suspect it is a very different kind of thing to the stuff I am talking about (which is probably all the stuff you define as amateur I guess?)

 

I suspect I would agree with you and that there will be c-stands on all the "professional" shoots as you define them and that this will be normal for sure. However in your posting it's not so clear what kind of shoots you have in mind.

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Sorry Freya, I thought your first post was a slight about people without budget asking the same questions all the time. I'm new to this forum, some forums can be pretty heated about that sort of thing ha.

 

So you reckon if I just bought some metal rod and 2 gobo heads, then I could attach that to a combo stand / c-stand as I please?

 

Is the rod 15mm?

 

Hiya Lee and welcome to the forum! With a few exceptions you will find that mostly everyone here is very relaxed and are more likely to get agitated about some technical stuff than about people asking the same questions a lot.

 

We are trying to work out if you can use two gobo heads at the moment. It seems like maybe not which isn't that big of an issue as the arms with the gobo head already attached are also not that expensive either but if it can be made to work it's slightly cheaper and you end up with two proper gobo heads which could be more versatile. Clearly there are issues with this idea tho.

 

I'm afraid I think the rod is non-metric, like 3/4" or something.

 

You probably don't need the arm for what you are trying to do with the big frame anyway but I sidetracked your thread into talking about c-stands more generally! Sorry about that but I find this stuff interesting. This thread has been helpful to me as it appears that PVC frames are definitely a no-go and two gobo heads and a bit of metal rod might also be a no-go too. It's great to learn from the stuff that other people have already tried! :)

 

Freya

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