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Where to buy diffusion and gels in UK


Lee Burnett

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No need to apologise Freya, it is interesting. Having entered the film scene about 5 years ago, at a time when everything got completely shaken up by DSLR's (which allowed me to even consider entering the film industry) - I think there has to be a complete shake down of what is considered a professional or amateur shoot, as you've mentioned.

 

A lot of shoots I work on are 8 / 9 crew, lighting, amira, budget, time and precision. But some of the projects I work on are 2 or 3 crew doc. Now, you could say these are amateur, but in reality the small crew and minimal kit approach is one that reaches a goal for us. We don't want to be intrusive, we don't want to scare the bajeebas out of anyone we interview. It has a purpose, and I think that the term professional should apply to this. No we may not light with umpteen HMI's, flags, bounce boards, c-stands, jibs and dollys, but we specifically DON'T want that on some of our shoots.

 

Also you've mentioned that a lot of lower budget stuff can't afford c-stands and trucks and 12x12's. In my mind, a professional is someone that can work in these situations and come up with solutions that still feel professional and high-budget. These jobs are the majority now, for better or for worse, but one thing is true - these sorts of jobs have allowed me, and many other people, to enter the industry and move their way up, learning cinematography as they go. I don't think I'll be forever working on these sorts of shoots, and I hope not, but film and video are no longer restricted to high-budget, big set shoots, and being a cinematographer means adapting to that.

 

Yes, high-end cinematography will always be high-end, and will always need the kit and precision to get beautiful results, but is a film shot entirely in ambient daylight any less professional?

 

That being said, I will be buying a few stands. Luckily, I can afford a couple, but a year or two ago I definitely wouldn't have been able to - other kit was far more important to me. So I appreciate what you're saying.

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And one reason I started this post is because, as has been mentioned, I'm aware of a few things that are industry standards that seem to be just tradition and habit. Now that isn't true for everything of course, but being clever, having initiative and saving money on certain things that aren't completely necessary can often save a production rather than ruin it,

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I was led to believe that c-stands were a must have item but now I finally understand why they are so rare in the UK.

This is all quite looney...Borrow a couple of C-stands (with arms) and try them.

 

The head on the arm looks pressed in to me. A very tight fit that won't move. But there may be locktight or a hidden pin. If attaching a grip head to a tube securely one could drill right through and fit a small pin or bolt. That or epoxy glue may be the only way to stop it twisting.

 

The Matthews tubes are probably 5/8" (15.88mm) but 16mm with a 2mm wall thickness should be ok. The grip head will have a very loose fit on the tube.

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You could have entered the "industry" before that because the industry was shaken up with the DVX100 and HVX200 and before that again with DV cameras. Digital technology constantly shakes things up. We seem to be entering a new era again now with things like the blackmagic pocket and the Canon C100 and XC10, not sure where that is heading to...

 

I wouldn't get too caught up in what is pro or amateur as these kind of concepts are incredibly vague. You might define professional as being paid work and things related to that but you will find that people have their own definitions of things that are wildly different to that often based on how high end and well paid the work is but not always even that. You will see professional written on some cameras but it won't be written on an Arri Alexa and in fact the more something has to cry out that it is professional the less likely it is to be so. There really is no agreement on what these terms mean although people throw them around as if we can assume some kind of consensus. Usually when people use these terms then it is more about their own feelings on the subject than anything else. It's up there with "What is art?"

 

Freya

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This is all quite looney...Borrow a couple of C-stands (with arms) and try them.

 

The head on the arm looks pressed in to me. A very tight fit that won't move. But there may be locktight or a hidden pin. If attaching a grip head to a tube securely one could drill right through and fit a small pin or bolt. That or epoxy glue may be the only way to stop it twisting.

 

The Matthews tubes are probably 5/8" (15.88mm) but 16mm with a 2mm wall thickness should be ok. The grip head will have a very loose fit on the tube.

 

 

You aren't getting it Gregg. I don't know anyone who owns c-stands! It's not a bad idea tho because I have a good relationship with a rental house that might let me play with them on site to get a bit of a feel and I have a new relationship with a little tiny studio that seems really well equipped and there is a small chance they might have c-stands and be willing to help me out. We shall see.. For me the big issue is not whether c-stands might be useful but whether a combo stand or something similar might be more useful given that it might be possible to only transport a few things as those would be more versatile.

 

Thanks Greg, yeah drilling a hole might be really difficult but possible as I have access to a machine shop. That's really not a bad idea, it would be better if the hole were threaded but I think it will be hard to make anything but a very small hole. I may have to rethink this idea but I'll see if there is an answer that can be made to work because it would be nice to have 2 grip heads, if not the arms aren't that expensive.

 

Freya

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For small doc shoots I use the stands used for Blondes. You can fit the Matthews grip head onto it with an arm, with a sand bag to stabilize it, they're light and compact, but not so good if you need a forest of stands.

 

When I need more stands in a small space then I have some of these:

 

https://www.manfrotto.co.uk/products/lighting/mounting-hardware/extension-arm-plugs-into-super-clamp-035-socket-19-5cm

 

(although without the gold bit on the top) which allow me to clamp more things to the same stand in various places. It's obviously not ideal but they don't take up that much space and the can make your stand more versatile.

 

Freya

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In any case I've never been able to understand the constant absence of c-stands but now that Stuart describes them in the way he just did it all makes sense.

 

Stuart describes setting multiple flags,frames and nets in a tight space but while we definitely have the tight space in the UK, it's rare that you see people get into anything too complicated with flags, frames or nets. You will tend to see something more like one large diffusion frame or possibly bounce (assuming they aren't bouncing a 2K off the ceiling). As the sets get bigger this kind of thing tends to get scaled up with even larger frames and bigger light fixtures on hydraulic stands. The further you go upwards in budget the more it tends to become large fixtures and big frames. There might sometimes be a small amount of flags used.

 

 

Getting back to what Stuart described. If you aren't doing that much with flags and nets etc, then a combo stand will be way more useful because it will be more secure and as I already described, the larger you go in the UK the more it is about large fixtures and big frames.

 

So why is this? I think it's a whole bunch of stuff but mostly it comes down to economics and budget. I think on the cheaper TV stuff there just isn't the time to set a bunch of flags and nets and use a range of smaller fixtures etc and so a style has evolved that obliviates the need for all that. It thus quickly becomes about large punchy lights and big frames. If something more controlled is needed it will tend to be a smaller fixture and some black wrap integrated in some way into the landscape of large punchy lights and big frames. This means in theory that everything can go much faster although in my experience of low end UK TV, there seems to be a huge amount of time and effort wasted on indecision and a lot of the people on set seem like they are bored with their job and can't wait till it is all over. I've been shocked by what I have seen on BBC sets especially although I have experienced too small a sample to make a realistic judgment on that.

 

On tiny low budget stuff it tends to be a lot of smaller fixtures because that is what is available and there is no generator etc.

In this context there is maybe more flagging and nets etc etc, or at least there is when I'm doing this stuff but at the same time there is no real budget for anything so it's more of a cardboard and gaffa tape affair. Some c-stands might be really useful to me, but even if I had them, I would have the issue of transporting them (unless it was a studio based shoot I guess). So even for me, combo stands would probably make more sense, especially if you are limited in what you have available already.

 

It was only when Stuart wrote what he did that I suddenly realised that c-stands are rarely needed in the UK with a few exceptions. It thus makes sense that I have rarely seen them in real life and it might also answer why members of the BSC might be concerned about the c-stands that are available to them because BSC members might be a bit out of step with the greater industry.

 

 

 

Freya

Freya, c-stands are not some mythical beast. Any TV-show with a lighting truck will have a c-stand cart with 20 or 30 of them on it. They are commonly used to support Kino-flos, as well as nets, flags and frames. You'll also see them used with 5/8" to VESA mounts for video village. Grip heads and Gobo arms (or flag arms as they're sometimes called in the UK) are one of the most widely used pieces of kit on the lighting truck, and by default, they come attached to a c-stand.

 

I don't know what sort of sets you regularly visit, but every professional show that I've done has always had plenty of c-stands. Even my poorly equipped film school had them.

 

As for them not being needed on British sets, I know plenty of electricians who would disagree.

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Freya, c-stands are not some mythical beast. Any TV-show with a lighting truck will have a c-stand cart with 20 or 30 of them on it. They are commonly used to support Kino-flos, as well as nets, flags and frames. You'll also see them used with 5/8" to VESA mounts for video village. Grip heads and Gobo arms (or flag arms as they're sometimes called in the UK) are one of the most widely used pieces of kit on the lighting truck, and by default, they come attached to a c-stand.

 

I don't know what sort of sets you regularly visit, but every professional show that I've done has always had plenty of c-stands. Even my poorly equipped film school had them.

 

As for them not being needed on British sets, I know plenty of electricians who would disagree.

 

I'm not saying they don't exist, just that it's rare to see them in the wild. Yes you will certainly find them on any proper grip truck and almost any rental house. I'm sure the film school I worked with must have had c-stands available. It's not that they don't exist, I saw a huge wheely rack of them at the BSC. It's just that they don't seem to be used so often.

 

As for them not being needed on British sets, I know that fellow from the BSC would have agreed that they were essential to what he was doing, as would I'm sure most of the members of the BSC.

 

I'm also sure that they had them and that they were probably even being used on every professional show you worked on. (There's that word again!) I just know I've never seen them in use on film school shoots, BBC shoots, ITV shoots and unsurprisingly in the low budget movie world. I've been surprised at this but it's starting to make sense to me and it's to do with different working practices at different levels of budget.

 

Again you didn't define what you meant with the rather meaningless word "professional" but I'm sure that c-stands are in regular use on the higher budget stuff.

 

Freya

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As ever, this is an issue of perspective.

 

What people seem to overlook is just how ineffably crap most British productions are. And they're the overwhelming majority. Hundreds to one. Yes, on a properly-produced TV drama, the equipment will be more or less what it is anywhere in the world. But - and we've discussed this before - how many crews are there actually doing that, on any given weekday? Nationwide?

 

Ten?

 

Fifteen?

 

Not even that, probably.

 

So yes, it's actually quite accurate to say that most UK shoots will struggle for the most basic things, because numerically, they do. We can all strut around pretending to be big and clever, as if we all work on nothing but Bond movies, but we don't, and it isn't very useful to pretend otherwise.

 

P

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Again you didn't define what you meant with the rather meaningless word "professional" but I'm sure that c-stands are in regular use on the higher budget stuff.

 

 

Professional as in the crew were professionals, not hobbyists, and were getting paid.

 

I can see we are unlikely to agree here, but I'll just reiterate: Every TV show, music video, commercial, movie or short film that I ever worked on had c-stands. They are possibly the most ubiquitous piece of equipment I can think of.

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Professional as in the crew were professionals, not hobbyists, and were getting paid.

 

I can see we are unlikely to agree here, but I'll just reiterate: Every TV show, music video, commercial, movie or short film that I ever worked on had c-stands. They are possibly the most ubiquitous piece of equipment I can think of.

 

 

"Professional as in the crew were professionals and not hobbyists" is obviously a circular argument.

You then have to define professionals who are presumably the people who work on the professional productions so we are back where we started. If it's about getting paid, there are people getting paid for all kinds of stuff including the BBC stuff I was talking about.

 

Also having c-stands on the truck isn't the same as using them. One of the BBC shoots I was on had a cherry picker, two techno cranes a grip truck, a camera truck and a catering truck. They were using all kinds of stuff but there were no c-stands to be seen anywhere.

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You know I really wasn't trying to argue that c-stands weren't useful or needed, I can see how they would come in very handy for the kind of things I get up to... if I had the budget to accommodate them. I would however really like it if someone could make a much better argument for c-stands other than "they are really useful, we use them to mount the monitors in the video village".

 

I would try and argue against the thing I didn't actually say even if it seems a bit funny to be arguing with myself but I don't have enough experience with c-stands to make a good argument. I currently feel bad for the c-stands however who seem to be coming off really badly in all this and are being unfairly maligned.

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"Professional as in the crew were professionals and not hobbyists" is obviously a circular argument.

You then have to define professionals

 

Professional. Pro-fes-sion-al.

 

adjective

 

(of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.

"a professional boxer"
noun
  1. 1.
    a person engaged or qualified in a profession.
    "professionals such as lawyers and surveyors"
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Professional. Pro-fes-sion-al.

 

adjective

 

(of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.

"a professional boxer"
noun
  1. 1.
    a person engaged or qualified in a profession.
    "professionals such as lawyers and surveyors"

 

 

I'm sure that would cover all those people on the BBC shoot I mentioned and I thought we were coming at things from the point of view that this wasn't a professional shoot. When most people here are talking about a professional shoot they tend to be talking about something at a fairly high level but there is no definition of what that might mean. People throw around the word professional as you have in this thread, to mean something more than just making a living in the field but this extended idea of professional is vague and undefined and means different things to different people.

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People throw around the word professional as you have in this thread, to mean something more than just making a living in the field but this extended idea of professional is vague and undefined and means different things to different people.

I'm not 'throwing around' the term Professional, I'm using it in its proper context and with its accepted meaning. The shoots I'm referring to were paid, professional shoots, as opposed to student projects or personal projects made by interested amateurs (I'm using the term Amateur to denote a non professional, not to comment on ability). I never made any comment about the nature of the shoots you were referring to.

 

This is a ridiculous discussion, frankly. You may wish to perpetuate the notion that the British Film & TV industry is so small and benighted that even such common tools as c-stands are unheard of, but having in worked in that industry for nearly 20 years, I can say categorically, it's not true.

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I know what you mean, but - you know what's funny about this, she might actually be right.

 

C-stands really are in astonishingly short supply here. I hadn't really thought about it, but it's true. If you don't have a huge package coming from some big rental house, and if nobody owns any, then there all to often aren't any. Combos, fine, you tend to end up with one per light because otherwise the lights are unusual. But flags and arms - rare as rocking horse poop. It's true.

 

Yes, Stuart, I know, you've had a good run of the good stuff. But that's not common enough to be considered normal.

 

P

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What a strange thread this is.. its almost Monty Python... I think Stuart is very clear what a professional shoot is.. there isnt really any room for debate.. either its their job or it isnt their job.. as a main source of income.. as it says in the book.. sorry but I have to say its nuts to put forward crews don't use C stands in the UK on professional shoots.. a certain DP may choose not to use them .. but if there is a lighting/grip truck there will be C stands for sure.. its like saying there are no bacon butties if you have location catering :)

 

Phil if you include doc,s,corps,weddings as well as drama/commercials there must be at very least a few hundred people making a living as a cameraman/women...in the UK.. of course some are making alot more than others.. who are all the sound recordists working with.. and why are they driving Merc,s..

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What a strange thread this is.. its almost Monty Python... I think Stuart is very clear what a professional shoot is.. there isnt really any room for debate.. either its their job or it isnt their job.. as a main source of income.. as it says in the book.. sorry but I have to say its nuts to put forward

 

As I've said lots of times. I'm happy with that definition but if we are using that definition then the BBC shoot must have been a professional shoot. Also you are right that if they have a grip truck there will be c-stands but as I have already pointed out more than once, it isn't about whether there are c-stands on the grip truck from the rental house, it's whether they get used on set. It's the fact I never see them used.

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This is a ridiculous discussion, frankly. You may wish to perpetuate the notion that the British Film & TV industry is so small and benighted that even such common tools as c-stands are unheard of, but having in worked in that industry for nearly 20 years, I can say categorically, it's not true.

 

I've pointed out a number of times now that I wasn't saying that there aren't c-stands or that nobody has heard of them.

 

Right from the start I have been clear that people are choosing not to use them because there are more suitable tools for the kind of lighting that is being done on lower budgets. Combo stands for example. They may not even be thinking "lets leave the c-stands on the truck" but just taking the things from the truck that they need to get the job done as fast as possible which may often not include c-stands.

 

It's a ridiculous discussion because I keep pointing out what I mean and you keep suggesting I am saying that there are no c-stands in the UK or that they are unheard of or some other kind of variation.

Edited by Freya Black
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