Brian Drysdale Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 At least 2 happened in a single year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted March 30, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted March 30, 2016 Oh, great, plenty of chow for everyone! Two jobs a year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Those are films I know about, the £1m budgets weren't regarded as that big a deal. There are £250k to £750k films as well, plus larger than £1m films like Moon ($5m). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted March 30, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted March 30, 2016 Not very many, though. One every few years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Holt Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 .... you should never be paying $900/Day for a 4k HMI (especially for just the unit??). That's insane. I just rented out a similar unit (2,4k HMI 10' Round) out of state and outsourced a technician there-shipping + unit+ tech was under $1500... It may be insane, but that is what they cost on the east coast. I went back through recent quotes I have received for balloons and the most recent one from August 2015 was for an 8k HMI for two weeks at a daily rate of $1’237.50 at a three day week ($3’712.50/wk.) Helium was $190/tank with a estimated cost of $1’520.00. Local balloon techs get $500/10hrs. And, that is not even taking into account the hidden costs to independent productions. The hidden costs start with the fact that you typically need a generator to power them. To the cost of a tow plant you have to add the cost of delivery and pick-up of the generator (usually $125 each way) since Ryder and Penske box trucks (the preferred mode of transportation for low budget productions) are not equipped to tow. Since many film productions change locations frequently, sometimes within the same day, delivery and pick-up of diesel generators gets expensive very quickly. Adding to the cost of a diesel tow plant is the fact that in most municipalities the use of a generator over 10kw requires an electrical permit, which can only be pulled by a licensed electrician. Because the electrician must be bonded and is putting their license on the line, they are not cheap. In the Boston market there are only a handful of licensed electricians that will pull a permit for a production and they charge from $600-$1000 for the service. Even if you make it affordable for a low budget production to rent a balloon light, the cost of helium (which can’t be shipped) and powering it can make it prohibitively expensive. Our modified 7500W Honda EU6500is generator and 60A Full Power Transformer/Distro powering 4kw HMI and 8kw Tungsten AirStar Balloons at the IATSE Local 481 Balloon Seminar. What’s made it possible for us to use balloons in the past is operating them on 7500W modified Honda EU6500s. The advantage to Hondas is that they are easily transported in rental box trucks so there are no delivery and pick up charges. And, no permits are required since they are under 10kW. As pictured in the IATSE Local 481 Balloon Technician training seminar above, a 7500W modified Honda EU6500s with 60A Transformer/Distro can power a 4k HMI balloon or 7 out of the 8 1k globes of an 8K tungsten balloon. To power larger balloons you can parallel two Honda EU6500s or EU7000s. Guy Holt, Gaffer & IATSE Local 481 Certified Balloon Technician, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting Rental & Sales in Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brereton Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Amazing, thanks Amanda! Good to know! I follow you guys online and would love to rent your kit at some point! I am UK based, and the feature I am talking about it is in Malta....so might be difficult to source those over there anyway. Airstar have a UK operation as well. Maybe Amanda can set you up with a contact there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Eckle Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Guy- Well out of curiosity-doesn't everything over essentially a 2k HMI equivalent (I think the highest you can go on Edison is 1.2k/1.8k HMI Globe) required a 60Amp bates paddle out from the Ballast? Which would obviously have to go to a 65000 or 7500 Generator (unless you have a Distro or other source that can provide proper AMPs ? So I wouldn't count that as a " hidden fee"since any electrician using it should be aware of what they need for power. As for helium, this is an obvious cost to fly anything that you wish to not use stands or condors for; I don't think that's any surprise to anyone. Otherwise you can, as I already stated, easy rig to a Condor, Truss, Speed Rail...etc to eliminate Helium cost. As far as Techs go, production does not have to have a technician if A) someone already knows how to fly it or B) Production (or the Gaffer, BBE...etc) can ask for someone on their end to be trained...etc. Obviously it is better to have someone fly it with experience (just like with any other item that you must be trained in) as to make for a safe set. You can always contact our East Coast Manager Mack (Since I'm assuming the quotes you got were from Available Light or another Balloon Company) at our headquarters in Florida and he can handle whatever you need-if Balloons ever come up again on your end. Also when was that balloon class? Must have been awhile ago (or done by Available Light); since I don't think we've done one recently up there....just curious...I appreciate your responses I am always curious to the hesitation people have sometimes. Simon-Yes our UK Film Contact at Airstar London is Mark W...he might be able to direct you to someone over in Matla (I believe we have had balloons used out there for shows/films before..we also have a fairly large European Network). Otherwise he is a good person to know over in the UK for balloons for future reference; and you can always contact me whenever your shooting in the states! Phil- Our delivery fee (even in the UK, I'm sure) is very low (same with shipping). Unless it's last minute but I think that's for obvious reasons. Plus 75% of Productions in the area will just pickup (or have teamsters..not sure what the UK equivalent of that is) pick up the equipment at no cost from the facility. There is a lot of miscommunication I feel like is conveyed with this particular subject; and like I stated before I really want to get more info out there about this. So feel free to keep the questions coming if you have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Holt Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) ... We are judged by the same audiences to the same standard as that one per cent. Occasionally, we can convince someone, by application of hard-won and exquisitely-realised skill and, yes, a bit of luck, that we are a "real" production, and that's the payoff. Well put Phil. It takes more skill to make an indie film than a big budget studio picture. Where a Hollywood production can throw money at a problem, an Indy production must work smart. Take Simon Rowling’s original post. The smart indie approach would be shoot his wide establishing shots dusk-for-night and only his close coverage night-for-night. Dusk-for-night, is an important technique for indie filmmakers to learn because it is a means of obtaining expensive looking production values for very little money. Dusk-for-night uses the fading daylight as an ambient fill to gain a base line exposure in wide establishing shots without using a big source like a balloon light. Typically it is intercut with closer framing shot night-for-night to create a realistic night scene. The advantage to shooting dusk-for-night over day-for-night (the other low budget alternative to expensive night-for-night cinematography on a large scale) is that if you are shooting a house or city street you can incorporate set practicals like window or porch light, car headlights, or even streetlights or raking moonlight in a wide establishing shot. But in order to get the balance right between your lamp light and the fading daylight requires the right location and careful planning. For example, the key to success in shooting the house pictured below dusk-for-night is choosing the right location. To get the subtle separation of the night sky and trees from a dark horizon, you don’t want to shoot into the after glow of the setting sun. Instead you want to find a location where you will be shooting into the darker eastern sky. With dusk-for-night, you have maybe a thirty-minute window of opportunity after the sun has set to shoot the wide master before the natural ambient light fades completely so you have to have everything planned out, rehearsed, and ready to go. In order to get the balance right between the practicals and the ambient dusk light in the limited time you have to shoot the establishing shot, you have to start with larger fixtures and be prepared to reduce their intensity quickly. For instance if you want the glow of an interior practical light raking the lace curtains in a window, start with a PH213 in the practical and 2k Fresnel raking the lace curtain. Wait until the ambient dusk level outside has fallen to the point where the balance between the natural light and your lamp light looks realistic and then roll. To get a second take, open the camera aperture a half stop and drop a single in the 2k head, dim down the PH213, and wait again until the ambient dusk level outside has again fallen to the point where it looks realistic and then roll. If you continue in this fashion with nets after you have exhausted your scrims, and a PH212 when the dimmed PH213 starts to look too warm, you will be able to get multiple takes out of the diminishing dusk light. Likewise with a streetlight or moonlight raking across the front of the house. To create a moon dapple on the front of a house against a night sky, you will need a good sized HMI set on a high oblique angle so that it will rake across the front of the house. Break it up with a branch-a-loris and wait. When the ambient level of the dusk sky has fallen to the point where it looks realistic against the moonlit house and the practical lit interior - roll. You can even add a car pulling up to the house, but you have to be prepared and have enough manpower standing by to dim the practicals, net the lights, and scrim the car’s head lights very quickly. The final touch is to use a graduated ND filter on the lens to darken the sky and balance the camera between daylight and tungsten so that the ambient dusk light filling the shadows is cool and the practicals and tungsten lights motivated by them remain warm but not too warm. Once dusk is past, you shoot the close coverage night-for-night when a package consisting of what you can run on a portable generator will suffice. If you parallel two of the Honda EU7000is generators for 120A output, you will be able to use a 6k HMI for your moonlight at dusk on top of a sizeable tungsten package to light the interior of a house to a high level to match the daylight. For example, the scene below takes place in the middle of a near vacant parking lot of an all night convenience store. The establishing shot of the brightly lit convenience store situated in a wide-open expanse of a empty parking lot at night was shot dusk-for-night because the production didn’t have the resources to light up the parking lot and building to separate it from the night sky. Close coverage was then shot night-for-night with nothing more than a single modified 7500W Honda EU6500is and a small tungsten package of 1ks and 650w Fresnels. Left: Close coverage shot night-for-night. Center: Transformer/Distro provides 60A/120V circuit from Honda EU6500 and compensates for voltage drop over long cable run to set. Right: Operating the Honda EU6500 from behind the grip truck at a distance was all the blimping required to record clean audio tracks. With no building or other sound barrier within a reasonable distance to block the sound of the generator, Gaffer Aaron MacLaughlin put it behind their grip truck as far from set as possible. This was only possible because he used a transformer to step down the 240V output of the generator, and in the process compensate for the voltage drop they experienced over the 500’ cable run to set. Operating the Honda EU6500 from behind the grip truck at a distance was all the blimping required to record clean audio tracks. There is reason to be optimistic Phil. The cost of feature production values is coming down. Mole Richardson is introducing this month at NAB a LED Tener that draws only 1400W. Just, think of what can be accomplished with that and the newest camera systems that are capable of a fourteen stop exposure range and ASA sensitivities of 1600 without grain – you won’t need anything more than can be operated on the enhanced 7500W output of a modified Honda EU6500 and EU7000 to get good production values in most production situations. Pretty soon the only barrier to success in this industry will be talent and drive. Guy Holt, Gaffer, Screenlight and Grip, Lighting rental and sales in Boston. Edited March 30, 2016 by Guy Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Holt Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Our modified 7500W Honda EU6500is generator and 60A Full Power Transformer/Distro powering 4kw HMI and 8kw Tungsten AirStar Balloons at the IATSE Local 481 Balloon Seminar. Amanda, Yes, that is Peter Prostowich from Available Light NYC on the left of the center picture above. They have come up to Boston twice (the last time about three years ago) to train IASTE Local 481 members. Guy Holt, Gaffer ScreenLight & Grip Lightng Rental & Sales in Boston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Allman Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Amanda, As a person who produces a lot of gear video tutorials, this may just be my perspective, but I would like to see some YouTube tutorials on balloon systems. Even an introduction to the basics might clear up a lot of questions for cinematographers and producers. I certainly don't have the budget to rent your products at this time, but I always like to have knowledge in my pocket (or easily accessible) when the time comes. I accept that it generally takes experienced and well trained professionals to make a set safe, but I still think it might be good to democratize some of the knowledge of how your systems work. I'm sure quite a few professionals on this site would appreciate it. Stuart Allman --------------------------- illuma.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Eckle Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Guy- Good to know, I have never met Peter from ALNY since I'm mostly dedicated to the West Coast half of the US right now; but that makes a lot more sense. Like I said before I'd really recommend just calling Airstar direct; especially when it's something that needs to be worked within a budget. My East Coast counterpart has been with the company for a long time-he would be able to shed a lot of light on this stuff. Stuart- You are so very right. It still stumps me as to why this hasn't been available. Since I'm still in my 1st year here-I have been pushing this and hopefully we will have content openly available soon. The hope is to have it up by CineGear time ideally.... So Fingers Crossed! On the other hand if you ever find your self in Los Angeles though you can feel free to stop by our Office anytime and we are always open to showing units/ going over them getting some first hand looks at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted March 31, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted March 31, 2016 Mole Richardson is introducing this month at NAB a LED Tener that draws only 1400W At what cost? In all seriousness, though, one of the few upsides I have is that I can pull, in theory and almost always in practice, about 3kW from a domestic wall socket. I'm sure there must be some way of safely commoning two of them, but I suspect it'd involve advanced electronics. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Allman Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Amanda, I might just take you up on that the next time I head north for an ASC talk. They seem to be on hiatus lately. Maybe we can trade some balloon knowledge for tutorial knowledge. Unfortunately I won't be going to NAB this year, otherwise I would stop by your display. I'm always scheduled for a production out of town during Cinegear and this year is no exception. :( Stuart --------------------------- illuma.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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