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New 1000w Plasma Lights from Hive.


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Im confused.

I must do different jobs than you all.

 

The dream would be a lightweight dimmable bright fresnel with no ballast and house power.

 

Youd just get a genny at night.

And youd just get an hmi if you cant dim it.

 

Im glad you all love it. I must be blind.

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From memory, they fire microwaves at a little gas capsule (the bulb), and that excites the gas and generates a bunch of light.

OK, that's a totally different sort of "Plasma".

As you say, the light source is a tiny bulb (about the size of a flashlight bulb) with no electrical connections. The energy is supplied by a microwave beam from a magnetron, similar to those found in domestic microwave ovens.

The bulb is filled with sulphur dioxide, which, when electrically energized, produces an almost magically perfect spectrum, virtually all visible light and negligible UV and IR.

This technology was actually first demonstrated well over a century ago, in the form of a conventional gas discharge lamp with metal electrodes. The problem was that the Sulphur Dioxide plasma is extremely corrosive, and even with tungsten electrodes, the lamp life was measured in minutes.

The idea of using electrode-less microwave excitation as a way of solving that problem also dates back a few decades, but I think the problem was people were concerned about having a continuously operating microwave source in the room. There's no scientific basis for this common concern, but at least one lighting company thought the problem could be solved, at least for office use, by using a "light-pipe" distribution. The other problem is that it's hard to make cheap magnetrons designed for continuous operation. Whatever, nothing ever seems to have come of the idea.

 

Another major problem with this technology is that there is no easy way of dimming the light since the plasma temperature is quite critical.

 

Also, Hive's website only claim about a 50% power reduction over an equivalent HMI.

 

DID YOU KNOW: That the term "plasma" was invented in 1914 by General Electric Engineer Irving Langmuir, who was also the true inventor of the vacuum tube (and not a certain charlatan, patent troll and all-round investment shyster by the name of Lee de Forest :rolleyes: )

Or that the "tron" ending of so many techie-words (at least originally) was actually ancient Greek for "device" or "instrument"? The term "electron" was derived from the Greek work for Amber "Elektron" because the ancient Greeks left records of their studies of static electricity, mentioning the effects of amber rubbed with fur. So although the endings are spelled the same in modern English, they have completely different meanings.

Langmuir's first vacuum tubes were called "Kenotrons" basically "instrument containing nothing" or "Vacuum tube". Other manufacturers used soundalike names (eg RCA's "Radiotrons") and eventually the term came to be associated with "electronic".

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Im confused.

I must do different jobs than you all.

 

The dream would be a lightweight dimmable bright fresnel with no ballast and house power.

 

Youd just get a genny at night.

And youd just get an hmi if you cant dim it.

 

Im glad you all love it. I must be blind.

 

Is "house power" 110VAC (USA) or 220VAC (UK, AUS, EU, elsewhere)?

 

Solutions exist that don't appear workable to you.

So....do what all great minds have done through history. Recognize a problem, define it and design a solution. I you can produce a workable light that has the characteristics you describe, only a fool would refuse to use it. I don't think this board is populated by fools.

Edited by JD Hartman
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Straya cu**!

Hah? Instead of dousing someones sticker frenzy you want me to design an led fresnel? I dont know how to design an led. I only know how to give a realistic, non DP opinion of an led fresnel.

The solutions arent there yet. Litepanels and celeb are about the only things that have bettered what I used in a lighting truck 5-10 years ago. The rest is undelivered promises.

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The solutions arent there yet. Litepanels and celeb are about the only things that have bettered what I used in a lighting truck 5-10 years ago. The rest is undelivered promises.

 

I do think the Hive fixtures offer enough advantages over comparable sized HMIs and LEDs that they will find a place in production and on the shelves of rental. Here’s my thinking:

 

Plasma emitters use solid state, hardened components that improve their reliability under harsh location production. Plasma bulbs are rugged and vibration resistant, and so will not break the way HMIs bulbs do. Since the LEP emitter is extremely compact the emitter, driver, and power supply can all fit in the lamp head eliminating the need for a separate ballast connected by header cables (the acknowledged Achilles heel of HMI systems.) Finally, with much lower UV emissions, LEPs do not require elaborate and ultimately finicky safety switches. In total, LEPs have an order of magnitude better reliability than conventional HMI lamp heads while offering the same full color spectrum needed for motion picture production.

 

Since their light output is not a function of the AC line frequency as it is with HMIs, LEP lamps are flicker free at all shutter angles and all frame rates (even extreme high speed frame rates.) Finally, Power Factor Correction (PFC) is standard in LEP lamp heads where it is not in HMI ballasts. As a result, it uses power more efficiently than the less expensive non-PFC HMIs (the K5600 Jokers) and they generate virtually no line noise.

 

Where, it is as much the Harmonic Noise that non-PFC electronic HMI ballasts kick back into the power stream, as it is the higher Apparent Power of non-PFC electronic HMI ballasts, that limits the total number of them that can be reliably operated on conventional portable generators; the efficiency and near unity Power Factor of LEP heads means that you can operate more of them on portable gas generators (use this link for details.) For instance, you can only safely operate four 575W HMIs with non-PFC electronic ballasts on a 6500W portable AVR generator, where you should be able to operate 23 of the Hive Wasp LEP heads (each with an output comparable to a 575W HMI) on the enhanced 7500W output of our modified Honda EU6500is. That is a major increase in production capability with portable gas generators that is possible with LEP heads that is not possible with electronic HMI ballasts.

 

To put that in perspective, to not have to rent a movie blimped tow generator in order to obtain decent production values with High Def cameras is a much bigger cost savings than just the difference in the rental price of the equipment. Until recently, to power HMI lights over 1.2kw or Quartz lights over 2kw required a large diesel movie generator. Movie generators are not only expensive to rent, but they come with hidden costs that usually break the budget of independently funded movie productions or regional commercial spot productions. Movie generators require special tow equipment not found on Ryder or Penske rental trucks. For that reason, movie generators require that you rent a more expensive grip truck from a rental house in order to tow them. Rental companies will not send out a grip truck without a company driver - further adding to the expense of renting a movie generator (driver rates typically run about $400/10hrs with overtime after 10hr). Though you will probably have to pay a higher rate for the Hive fixtures than comparable sized HMIs, the ability to operate them on small portable generators and common wall outlets translates into a net savings compared to the cost of a diesel tow plant, a truck to tow it, the feeder cable, and the man power to set it all up.

 

Milestone_Volt_Set_WS.jpg

Set of Chevy Volt Spot powered by nothing more than a Honda EU6500

 

In fact, something of a milestone was recently set when a commercial for the Chevy Volt was shot with nothing more than Hive Plasma lights operating on batteries and a 60A generator. Normally, sets for car spots are cluttered with diesel generators, large feeder cables and the multiphase distribution boxes required to power big lights, cameras, and basecamp trailers. A proof of concept spot for Hive, the spot was the first car commercial ever made where everything was powered by batteries and a 60A Honda EU6500is generator. Use this link to see the commercial and the behind-the-scenes “making of” video.

 

Where LEP is a radically new technology, there is a lot for the end user to get their head around. But the benefits are real and so it is just a matter of time before they will catch on. For more details about the benefits to using LEPs verses LEDs or HMIs, see a newsletter article I wrote the use of portable generators in motion picture production. It is available at http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html#anchorHigh%20Output%20LEPs.

 

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer

ScreenLight & Grip

Lighting Rentals & Sales in Boston

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It makes a huge difference no matter where you are with voltage as you generally can at least double the number of lights you can run 1) on the same power run, or 2) on the same breaker. This is kind a big deal in terms of laying down cable. Also you genny's will get smaller if you happen to be using the same amount of light.

 

 

What are you saying here? Watts are watts. If you double the voltage, you can reduce the cable size(theoretically) because you have halved the current, but the watts consumed by the lights remains unchanged (P = I x E). The generator size would be the same, all loads would be across a pair of hot legs, there would be no neutral leg.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I've never worked as a spark in any 220 volt country, but I have worked on commercial and industrial electrical systems.

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I think Adrian's just saying that since you're halving the wattage (with these fixtures compared to HMI), that regardless of the voltage on location, you'll get twice the bang for your buck.

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By the way, prompted by something Vittorio Storaro said about the diameter of cables in the U.S., I wanted to ask this: if America ever decided to switch from 110 V – 120 V to 220 V – 240 V, would that be a big step in a positive direction? Would the cables really be thinner, and is that the only thing that’d change? This’ll probably never happen, since, I think, it would cost a whole lot.

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  • 4 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Thank you Stuart for the the review of the Wasp 1K. It covers the technical aspects well but what do you think of the light from a creative DP point of view? How is the quality of the light? Have they fixed the melting issue you had with the plastic lenses when you add a scrim? How do you think the Wasp 1K compares to the Arri M18 1800W HMI?

 

I own 3 of the smaller Wasp 200W par plasma lights. I love these lights; the colour, the quality of the light. They are so easy to set up and operate. Plug into the wall and go. Compared to HMIs and LEDs of similar output I find they produce a more beautiful light on faces. The single source shadow falloff is gorgeous. I prefer the glass lenses to the plastic lenses. Sometimes I will use the light with a soft Chimera but most often I use it as a strong back light or background light and often through windows. It is a really nice night time key light. The original model had the power source combined with the light and I found the unit awkward and heavy. The more recent versions, separating the lamp from the power source, work much better. They never flicker at high speed. Last week I used all 3 lights on a 3,000fps shoot of a fly taking off.

 

I can't wait to try the Wasp 1K. I've been a DP for 28 years. When I started the ISO/ASA of film was rated at 200. On drama and TV commercial shoots we used 4K, 6K and 18K HMI lights running off expensive generators. And large crews! Now that I have returned to shooting documentary and doc dramas (and loving it) the crew is tiny and the producers laugh at you if you ask for a large Genie. I'm in constant search for that beautiful, strong output light that you can plug into a wall. I have all kinds of LEDs but there is something about the quality of plasma lighting that is beautiful.

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It appears that Hive offset the mounts for the plastic lenses further from the front lens on this unit, so it might not have the yellowing issue. Melting was mainly a problem if you used a scrim and lens on the 250W units. I imagine if you set a scrim right next to the lens on this 1k unit the lens will melt in the same manner. We didn't do a full day burn in on the light with a lens, so I don't know what to expect long term. The spectrums of the 250W unit and 1k unit are different and I don't have any data about the IR part of the spectrum

 

We had an Arrisun 1200W unit in the shop at the same time. You can see it in the background of the video. The Arri unit put out about 1/2 to 3/4 stop more light. The extended CRI had about the same average on both units with R9 being severely low.

 

Speaking of that, Dom really liked that the unit doesn't melt your face. The Arri felt light a hotter light to stand under. No issue with the Hive.

 

Dom's skin is a pretty good green detector. What I noticed by eye is that his skin went a bit green under the Arri unit, whereas I didn't notice it as much with the Hive light. Seems weird give the large yellow spike in the Hive spectrum, but this was just my non-scientific judgement and I don't have any data to back it up. Of course, the two lights are different color temperatures with Arri being spot on at 5500K (measured) and the Hive at 6000K. That difference was noticeable by eye.

 

We didn't want to highlight the fan noise in the video, but the ballast and fixture were very noisy. Hive is going through a production change to change out the fans to quieter ones so by the time you see a unit that may not be something to be concerned about. the fixture is brand new, so you have to expect a few things to get fixed in the first few months of production.

 

I really love the 250W units, especially now that they're color tunable. I use them all the time, but it took two years for Hive to figure out how to make them reliable in terms of the ballast and bulb flicker. I've pretty much given up on their lenses and bounce or diffuse the light. Sometimes I'll use it as a hard light through a window. I also like that they produce nice, healthy looking skin tones, unlike a lot of LED and HMI units.

 

Stuart Allman

--------------------------

illuma.blogspot.com

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Well...the C-700 said 5500K. I was taken back for a second too, but I measured it three more times to make sure we were getting correlated results.

 

The FilmGear HMI we have in the shop measures 6000-6300K, depending on settings. That's what I initially expected for the Arri as well. Arri must use better bulbs. It's CRI was much, much higher than the FilmGear fixture.

 

I wish the shop had a full time C-700. It's a great marketing BS meter. We had to borrow one for the day to do the video.

 

Stuart Allman

---------------------------

illuma.blogspot.com

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Hey Stuart, thanks for your candid comments on the Wasp plasma 1K. They are very helpful. I stand corrected. The small hive is indeed a 250W light, not 200. Wishful thinking on my part. I do have a few more questions about the Wasp 1K. The ballast dims 50%. Did that change the color of the light or effect it's performance in anyway? Is the light locked to the one color temp? No lower color temp choice like on the Wasp 250? Did you try pointing the light straight up or down? On the earlier model of the 250 I had slight flickering issues when the light was pointing straight down. Since corrected.

 

Hive has gone through growing pains adapting plasma tech into a film/digital friendly light. I think this is expected with any new tech. I recall back in the the late 80s when the new Kino Flo lights were making there way on to sets in Toronto, Many of the local gaffers hated them because they were breaking down all the time and they were not enough replacement parts around. But young, starting out DPs like myself were falling in love with the quality of the light, the softness and good color. And we were hounding the rental houses to buy more fixtures. It took Kino Flo awhile to work out all the production kinks but in the end they go it right. I ended up buying their largest light, a 16 - 6ft bulb Blanket light that I still use. It fits on to a 6x6 frame and actors love it.

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Reading back over this thread I see the disdain for using scrims from at least one person. It's important to note that the small 250W Wasp and the new 1K Wasp lights are similar to HMI's and fresnels in that they are designed to use scrims to reduce light. Call me old fashion but I like the measured regiment of a scrim. When you put a single or double scrim in a light you know exactly what you are getting. When I'm on set with my tiny crew and I have to make an adjustment to a light, often I'm the one that has to trudge over to the light. If it's an LED I dial down the dimmer but I can't really measure how much I dimmed, not from my position at the light. So I go back to the camera only to realize I dimmed too much or too little. Back to the light I go. It drives me crazy.

If I'm using scrims, I can stand at the camera, look at the subject or background and past experience will tell me,"Ok that's a half stop down I need to go. Simple and efficient.

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Unfortunately I didn't test for flicker when the fixture is tilted up or down. I've faced that issue too with the 250W fixture, but I haven't had that issue in the latest incarnation of their products. I now use the Bee bounced up into poly quite often as a soft key light and haven't had flicker issues over hours of use.

 

The 1k doesn't have a color temperature knob. I use it all the time on the smaller lights to match fluorescents or cool daylight, so that feature will be missed.

 

We didn't test for color temperature shift when dimming. In the past Hive said that their light goes very blue when dimmed, just due to the plasma technology, and that's why they had to use scrims. This is just speculation on my part, but maybe they combined the color temperature control with dimming and compensated for color shift while dimming(?) The light didn't immediately appear to go very blue while dimming, but I don't have any hard data to back that up.

 

The 1k is *way* beyond my budgets and I'm pretty happy with the smaller fixtures, so I'll probably stick to those. However, I worked on a film earlier this year as a gaffer and I really wish we could have had a couple of 1k's.

 

Stuart Allman

--------------------------

illuma.blogspot.com

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Hi Stuart

 

Just trying to understand and clarify this comment from you:

 

The FilmGear HMI we have in the shop measures 6000-6300K, depending on settings. That's what I initially expected for the Arri as well. Arri must use better bulbs. It's CRI was much, much higher than the FilmGear fixture.

 

HMI CCT and color rendering metrics are primarely a product of the brand of bulb/globe, what kind of usage the the globe has been subjected to, globe running hours and age. System parameters like ballast speed/frequency; optical train such as open face vs. Fresnel, typically have lesser impact on the CCT and color rendering metrics.

 

Filmgear has typically not provided globes/bulbs when the fixtures are sold from us. We normally recommend Osram HMIs (their rated CCT is 6000K) as that is the brand we design and test the fixtures with, but we have no control over what the distributor/dealer/user decides to put in their fixtures.

 

Can I ask you what particular model fixture and brand of globe that you were testing?

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