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CInematographers should not be paid... What?


Tyler Purcell

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Nonsense? You left.

 

Quite sensibly, I should add, but don't lecture me on the benefits of this place.

 

P

 

I was dragged out against my will Phil. :)

 

I come over pretty much every year, and ponder seriously coming back. It's a great country with lots to be proud of. I firmly stand by the beauty and history of the UK which is largely unmatched anywhere.

 

It only really lacks quality inland power boating. I see the guys going out onto the North Sea at Bridlington but that doesn't look like much "fun" to me. :blink:

 

Here's the back of my boat on Lake Simcoe, in the province of Ontario.

 

 

 

R,

post-4653-0-78773300-1468593369_thumb.jpg

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Awww!

 

I could have a boat if I wanted. It would look like this, right down to the colour of the water.

 

MyDremboat.jpg

 

I'd love one of these!

 

You are welcome to come out with us Phil, I'm sure you'll have a fun time as we tow you in the tube at 30 knots.

 

R,

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Like Matt, I've done a ton of freebies, spec work, or $200/day type jobs in the past and some very recently. Most of which I've posted frame grabs from in the last year or two. It's simply part of doing business, finding new directors and clients to work with, adding some missing pieces to your reel, and getting your name out there.

If you've already made it, you've got consistent/steady money coming in through your agent and you want to help out friends on your spare time between jobs, I can see doing a day or two for free, just to "experiment" with things.

 

However, what Matt states is an entirely different thing. He suggests and promotes giving away your services no matter what because in his words "you're not good enough". That may sound "realistic" but it isn't when you've gotta pay the bills as well. So I guess if all you do is little fun jobs on the weekends with friends, in between your full-time job, who cares if you get paid for those fun jobs right? But you can't have a full time job because when you score a good gig, it's most likely going to be during the week. My first feature was a surprise, they can knocking and if I had a job, I would have not been able to take it. Same goes for all the work I've had this year. Its been literally non-stop and there is no way I could have had any essence of a regular job.

 

Also... there is a HUGE difference between no-pay and low-pay. I've worked on several pretty large productions for $150/day, because they had a full crew and paid everyone the same rate. Heck, I was just the camera op on a feature length educational series that wrapped last week and it was $300/day, but I didn't even flinch because it was "acceptable" money and I know the budget limitations.

 

It's not the DP's who I'm frustrated with, it's the filmmakers who feel entitled enough to post online looking for free help. It's one thing to help your friends, it's another for a random person to ask for help and expect you to do it for free. It's the same in post production, there are literally millions of people who will bark at the opportunity to work for free, which is really sad. There is a big difference between mentoring with an expert at a certain trade AND doing it yourself. Man, I'd absolutely work for free if it meant I could stand beside a top cinematographer and learn.

 

My entire narrative reel is composed almost entirely of freebies. If I only put paid work on it, my reel would be mostly talking heads, doc work, greenscreen, and the insides of corporate offices. So when a director offered me the opportunity to shoot an actor in Ken Watanabe's costume from 'The Last Samurai' fighting through a sandstorm in Death Valley (for free), of course I said yes!

It's funny you mention this because I wholeheartedly agree. However, I don't think you need to take "FREE" work in order to build a reel. Helping friends for a day is great, I do it all the time. But I think you should be able to score real paid work to help your reel. Personally, my biggest struggle is not having a decent camera/lens package. People just expect cinematographers to have their own equipment, which really sucks. I mean, I do have my own equipment, its just film not digital. So I do get work out of my cameras, just not as much as I could if I had 4k digital stuff. All of that to say, I agree that a day of freebee work to get some fodder for your reel seems worth it. If I were placed in your shoes, I may also take it. However, that's not every show you do.

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However, what Matt states is an entirely different thing. He suggests and promotes giving away your services no matter what because in his words "you're not good enough". That may sound "realistic" but it isn't when you've gotta pay the bills as well.

 

This generalises to an industry-wide problem.

 

Lots of people do lots of very hard work and pay for the privilege of so doing. We call these people "students" and we call the institution in which they do it "college."

 

If the training scheme for this industry is, in essence, largely self-directed and involves lots of working on low-budget stuff, then fine, that's the training scheme. But that isn't a training scheme that anyone should be required to pay to attend.

 

P

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I think Matt's point was to be open to working for free if it benefits you in some way. You need footage, you need to step up a tier. I don't think he intended it to be a call to everyone to give up the idea of a day rate entirely.

Edited by Michael LaVoie
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I think Matt's point was to be open to working for free if it benefits you in some way. You need footage, you need to step up a tier. I don't think he intended it to be a call to everyone to give up the idea of a day rate entirely.

Forget about the cinematographer for a second... think about the person who would advertise they need a cinematographer for a job, show up to set with a super technocrane and Alexa with Arri Super Speed's and not be able to pay their cinematographer ANYTHING. No gas money, no $100 and a hand shake, NOTHING!

 

The problem is the paradigm today is free help. Doesn't matter what position you're in, whether it's audio, editing, gaffing, cinematography, acting or even writing/directing. Everyone wants something for free and it's the reason this industry has fallen apart. How do you build relationships with filmmakers who only value equipment but not your effort?

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What about the jobs all over the internet (Especially Atlanta?) advertising need for a cinematographer between $100-400 day rate, single day.

 

But you need your own (insert name of camera here) and must have lenses, lights, G&E.... all of the things. To me these are not DP jobs, these are "We need a 20 year old Viedographer with rich parents" jobs.

 

Needing a specific camera is one thing. Paying me $100 and expecting me to own or rent a $30,000 camera is entirely another.

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Tyler, you're reading your own issues into Matt's opinions. You've completely missed the context of what he's saying.

 

Obviously, he's not talking about devaluing the craft of cinematography or labor in general. He's a successful commercial DP. He has an agent. By his own admission, his day rate is in the range of $1.5-3k/day. I guarantee you he is not working for free on 'real jobs' with established clients and agencies. His agent is not going to look favorably on him working for free UNLESS IT LEADS TO NEW CLIENTS AND BIGGER JOBS. That's why you do freebies as a DP. Full stop.

 

His point is that career cinematographers need to work their way up the ladder. It takes a long time to build skill, connections, and a body of work, and the need to keep improving never ends as you step up into the next level.

 

He is saying he exact same thing that you and everyone else has said on this forum: owning a camera does not make you a DP; you will suck at shooting for the first few years, accept it and work hard to get better; you will always suck compared to the guys at the next level, use that fact as fuel to improve; understand how you fit into the different rate structures and the tiers of production; keep working your way up by making opportunities for yourself.

 

AGAIN, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ASPIRATIONS OF MAKING A LIVING FROM SHOOTING FULL-TIME, then Matt's advice probably won't have any relevance to you.

 

You have to have some bread-and-butter income in order to do freebies - whether that is shooting corporate and industrials, working as an operator or AC, or working part-time in a different field. That's a given. But if you do that indefinitely, you will never advance to full-time, high-end work that could allow you to join the union, make your hours so that you get healthcare, show enough profit on your tax returns to qualify for a mortgage, and eventually retire on your savings.

 

Btw, I do not have an agent, and I'm not in Local 600. I'm in Richard's lower 95% bracket. So I'm struggling to make my way into the major leagues as well. But I understand that I have to work hard and pay my dues, and then rely on some luck and hope I have enough talent to make it. And I do make a living from only shooting these days. I'm not doing freebies for fun (though they can be). I'm doing them so I can get to Stuart's level. Maybe even David's level some day. From there, who knows.

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But if you do that indefinitely, you will never advance to full-time, high-end work that could allow you to join the union, make your hours so that you get healthcare, show enough profit on your tax returns to qualify for a mortgage, and eventually retire on your savings.

 

The overwhelming majority of people will never do any of those things regardless of what they do.

 

P

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I've touched on this argument before... The reality is that you're almost expected to work for free early in your career. People are simply not 'hired' for $100+ dollar a day jobs in any great quantity. Yes, there is some chance that if you move to an area high in filming, and you network enough to meet the right people, you might get a PA job on a paid set. Might. Then again, there is just as much as a chance you won't.

 

Also, it depends on what you want to do. Filmmakers - those who are involved in making the movie (Producers, directors, etc.) would be wasting their time as a PA. To ever work your way up from that position is just not that common. Yeah, it happens - but PA tends to lead to other technical jobs. Just because someone can handle a grip cart does not mean they have any creative ability. So for a filmmaker, you're much better off doing your own things or helping other friends do their own things.

 

If you're interested in technical jobs like crane ops, gaffers, grips, camera ops, etc - you're probably better off going to film school to get a base understanding and then looking for entry level PA or related jobs to gain experience and network.

 

Cinematographers, at least in my mind, tend to fit somewhere in between filmmakers and technical crew. Though I will say that many cinematographers get their job by knowing the director or producer, so I say it's still be to work - even volunteer your time - for other filmmakers to get your name out there and build a reel.

 

Then there is a whole other group of people that seem to be left out, and possibly even downright degraded by some here - those who do it for fun. Much like community theatre, some people just like to be involved in film and do it as a side hobby - or like me they have enough of an income from their other businesses they own that they don't need a large income from film and have plenty of time to spare.

 

By all means, the opinion of these people I get from a few posters here is somewhat grim. They seem to be relegated to second-class - and not real - filmmakers. I can tell you from spending 10 years working in community theatre, and 4 years running a semi-professional theatre, there is as much talent there as there is in the professional field. Talent is not determined by payscale, that is just the reality. I sat in on many audition for amateur performers and amateur technicians, and was blown away by the professionalism and talent every time.

 

Remember: some people just like to entertain for the fun of it. That does not mean they are stupid or can't possibly be at the level of their professional counterparts.

 

Just my $0.02

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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Hi Landon,

 

On your argument that PAs don't move up to be directors or producers, I don't find that to be the case at all. Many of the directors I have worked with, I first met when they were working as a PA and I was working as an AC.

 

Almost everyone who jumps into the filmmaking business does so because they want to be creative. Many have scripts or stories they want to tell. And as they say, the positions of Director and PA are the two entry-level positions in Hollywood. It's only partially a joke.

 

I don't think anyone here is denigrating amateur filmmakers. There are talented amateurs in all kinds of fields. One does not have to be a professional to be a good filmmaker. That said, professionals are generally held to a much higher standard - there are many folks here who seem to relish ripping into the work of professional craftspeople at the first opportunity. There's certainly a double standard going on there.

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That said, professionals are generally held to a much higher standard - there are many folks here who seem to relish ripping into the work of professional craftspeople at the first opportunity. There's certainly a double standard going on there.

 

Well if you spend 175 million on a movie you should be held to a pretty high standard, don't you think?

 

I'm still mad about Batman v Superman, I mean what the HECK!!!! :wacko:

 

R,

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Tyler, you're reading your own issues into Matt's opinions. You've completely missed the context of what he's saying.

Sure, but isn't that the whole idea? Don't we look at what other people say and try to figure out how their words fit our own situation?

 

Obviously, he's not talking about devaluing the craft of cinematography or labor in general. He's a successful commercial DP. He has an agent. By his own admission, his day rate is in the range of $1.5-3k/day. I guarantee you he is not working for free on 'real jobs' with established clients and agencies. His agent is not going to look favorably on him working for free UNLESS IT LEADS TO NEW CLIENTS AND BIGGER JOBS. That's why you do freebies as a DP. Full stop.

He is a successful "commercial" cinematographer, but that's a speciality market. His agent isn't booking him feature/television or even short-form, narrative or documentary, as there aren't really any credits on IMDB to show that work. So sure, that's why he gets 3k a day, to basically be a fashion cinematographer in NYC, of which there are many of. So his "advice" on getting work is pinpointed on his own little world, living in NYC and being a part of the "commercial" industry.

 

I understand your point of freelancing for free in order to experiment, meet new people and build relationships. But as I said earlier, who says those people will re-hire you? Who would have any devotion to some guy they brought in for free, unless of course you continue working for free. At some point, after a bunch of freebee's, you've gotta tell them no and they'll just find someone else. That's the problem Satsuki, generally if you work for free, it means you are "that guy" who can always be called upon to work for free.

 

Also, I don't know WHAT Matt has done. It's clear he's an entrepreneur and enjoys 3D pre-vis, but outside of that, I have no idea.

 

His point is that career cinematographers need to work their way up the ladder. It takes a long time to build skill, connections, and a body of work, and the need to keep improving never ends as you step up into the next level.

I get his point, I just don't agree with it at all. I don't agree with filmmakers "hiring" people for no money. I don't agree with ANYONE in this industry, student, novice, expert, NOT getting paid for time they spend on someone else's project.

 

If it's your own project, if you're working with close friends, if it's a student project or even something commercial for a client who you DO make money with on other projects... then OK, I get it. There are very specific situations where financial gain isn't relevant/important. However, to say most of the time you'll be working for free is setting up poor innocent people watching his video, for failure in my book. How is some kid who just graduated college, going to follow his advice?

 

He is saying he exact same thing that you and everyone else has said on this forum: owning a camera does not make you a DP

Right, but I'm a pretty big advocate for going out and shooting your own stuff to practice your craft. It's hard to do that when you don't have a camera.

 

Btw, I do not have an agent, and I'm not in Local 600. I'm in Richard's lower 95% bracket. So I'm struggling to make my way into the major leagues as well. But I understand that I have to work hard and pay my dues, and then rely on some luck and hope I have enough talent to make it. And I do make a living from only shooting these days. I'm not doing freebies for fun (though they can be). I'm doing them so I can get to Stuart's level. Maybe even David's level some day. From there, who knows.

What makes you so certain those freebee's will work vs shooting your own stuff with friends?

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I don't think anyone here is denigrating amateur filmmakers. There are talented amateurs in all kinds of fields. One does not have to be a professional to be a good filmmaker. That said, professionals are generally held to a much higher standard - there are many folks here who seem to relish ripping into the work of professional craftspeople at the first opportunity. There's certainly a double standard going on there.

I believe that indies should be held to the same standard as pros...provided you account for the differences in your analysis. Too many people expect indies to compete with Hollywood without the budget being taken into consideration.

 

I guess a way to look at it is this...reverse the roles...take Michael Bay, Spielberg, or any A-lister Director and see what they could do with a budget of 500k, 250k, 100k, 50k, 25k or less even and NO favors from A-lister friends. Could they make anything better? I cannot definitively answer this but it would be a fun case study to explore.

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