Frank Chang Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Just curious to know the process of making release print from internegative. Do labs make the release print from married/composite internegative? Or do labs make the release print from two sources? (i.e. internegative and a separate 35mm reel with soundtrack only) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tyler Purcell Posted September 15, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 15, 2016 So it goes: Cut Negative Interpositive Internegative Release print The Interpositive will be a "composite" of the picture and sound track, married together on the printer. It's during the interpositive process that color changes are applied as well. A few internegatives will be struck from the interpositive in order to make release prints. Quite a few prints can be struck from an internegative before it starts to fall apart. But of course, the best prints are made from a duplicate negative, which is really the highest quality composite source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted September 15, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 15, 2016 You mean original negative would be the highest quality source for a print -- you make prints either from the original negative or the dupe negative, you don't make prints from an interpositive, that would require some sort of reversal process to go positive to positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Chang Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 So David, do when labs make the release prints, do they use an internegative that is married or do they use 2 sources (i.e. internegative and a separate 35mm reel with soundtrack only) separately during the duplication release print? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tyler Purcell Posted September 15, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 15, 2016 You mean original negative would be the highest quality source for a print -- you make prints either from the original negative or the dupe negative, you don't make prints from an interpositive, that would require some sort of reversal process to go positive to positive. Sorry, yea I was thinking dupe negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny N Suleimanagich Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 The sound is printed onto the film during the IP stage usually before the picture is printed from the OCN. Can be optical or Dolby/DTS/SDDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted September 15, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 15, 2016 That surprises me. I have never heard from a European lab that the projection positives would not receive the soundtrack directly from the original sound negative which has been exposed after a master. We are used to have either the original camera negative or an internegative on the printer along with an original sound negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 It used to be that the soundtrack was copied to the duplicate negative, but only for B&W and certainly not in the last fifty years or so. I see this configuration only on very old archive material in B&W from the 1950s or before. Currently all soundtracks are printed from a separate sound negative that can be used with the original negative (if suitable for printing) or from the duplicate negative. Friends in large labs told me they could strike about 2500 prints from one set of duplicate negatives. A separate sound printer head is used because the exposure of the soundtrack is quite different from the picture. Also, light changes in the picture would do no good in the soundtrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny N Suleimanagich Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) I should have articulated that better I didn't mean to say that IP has sound on it as well (besides as Dirk mentions this archival style) rather the sound is printed after picture lock, before color timing etc, to a separate negative but at the same stage as IP. Edited September 15, 2016 by Kenny N Suleimanagich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted September 15, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 15, 2016 I was waiting for a lab person to answer that, my understanding was that the optical track was added in a separate exposure pass but I wasn't sure if that was still true once they went from silver application tracks to cyan or high-magenta dye soundtracks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tyler Purcell Posted September 16, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 16, 2016 I was always told they ran it through the printer at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 The printing machine has two printing heads, one for picture and one for sound. Two negatives are threaded to make one positive print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Chang Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 What is the average life-spin for the internegative for making the positive print? 300 to 500 positive prints? I think I have heard 1,000 to 2,000 positive print before the need to change the internegative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny N Suleimanagich Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) There is additional useful information on this in this thread. I believe the most common sound recording film is still Agfa ST8.D Edited September 16, 2016 by Kenny N Suleimanagich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted September 16, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 16, 2016 The printing machine has two printing heads, one for picture and one for sound. Two negatives are threaded to make one positive print. I assume that doesn't mean three pieces of film are sandwiched together but that there are two heads side by side to expose the image and then the sound as the print stock passes through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 David, that is correct. I would like to add that in case of a direct blow-up/reduction on an optical printer, the sound negative is exposed after the image on a separate contact printer, using only the soundhead. Agfa ST8D was a very good stock, but no longer available and no longer manufactured. Kodak and Orwo have comparable stocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Dirk, Any chance of a photo showing the two headed contact printer. (picture and sound for the release print) It would be very educative for the rest of us. Thanks, Gregg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 I will get a picture on Monday; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk DeJonghe Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Here is a picture of the 35mm bi-directional panel printer, image head on the left, sound head on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Thanks Dirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Chang Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 Just pulled out 38 reels that are marked FF35MM I/N B Wind. I assume FF means Full Frame and does this means 1.33 or 1.37 ? Is it normal for internegative (without married audiotrack) to be full frame at 1.37? And is it normal for internegative to be full frame at 1.37, but the theater/release print at 1.33? Anyone know what B wind means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Chang Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 Sorry. Corrections above. Please ignore the questions above. The questions should be: Just pulled out 38 reels that are marked FF 35MM I/N B Wind. I assume FF means Full Frame and does this means 1.33 or 1.37 ? Is it normal for internegative (without married audiotrack) to be full frame at 1.33? is it normal for internegative to be full frame at 1.33, but the theater/release print at 1.37? Anyone know what B Wind means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted September 19, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted September 19, 2016 "Full frame" is a bit vague in this case -- it's not unusual, for example, for cameras to expose 4-perf 35mm Full Aperture (silent) which is 1.33 but the viewfinder is set up to compose the image within the offset smaller 1.37 Academy area or whatever. FF may just mean that the lab didn't do any masking when masking the IN, whether or not the original has a 1.37 Academy hard matte in it or not. Putting a projection mask, a hard matte, whether 1.37 Academy, 1.66, 1.85, etc. into the IN was not the norm... but it wasn't uncommon either. Either way, the projector itself has a physical matte that covers the soundtrack area and crops the image to something from 1.37 to 1.85, etc. Once widescreen cropping to 1.85 became the norm, it can be confusing to look at the original negative or any contact-printed dupes because they can show the full aperture, leaving it to the projector mask to show the correct area - but there may be an image on the 1.33 full aperture silent area even if it was composed to be cropped to the offset 1.85 projection area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Chang Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 Thanks David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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