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How to get connected with an Agent?


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On a very large budget show that might be the case, but most people on this forum don't work in that arena. If there's no more money to be had, then there's no more money to be had, agent or no agent. Eventually producers just move on and find someone else that will do the job, whatever it is, for the amount on offer. And in film, there is always someone who will do the job for the amount on offer. Never a problem.

 

R,

 

 

Yes sure.. but a producer will nearly always try to get someone they want..or someone the the dir they want,wants.. rather than just anyone would will do it for the amount on offer.. and risk the whole shoot going pear shaped ..crew wise, after director it has to be the biggest slot to fill... and an agent will always get a better deal for anyone, on the say,the top 5 list.. people dont like to talk money..and no one wanted to be a DP to become rich as the sole purpose.. and producers are alot better at negotiating than the average DP.. so the agent is going to get you more than 10% anyway.. if you can get a good agent ,you would be mad not to really..

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No idea even why a DOP, or production designer would need/want an agent?

 

 

 

Anything over a million dollar budget is likely to be a union show. Local 600 doesn't list rates for DPs on features. It's all subject to negotiation. Hence the need for an agent

 

 

If there's no more money to be had, then there's no more money to be had, agent or no agent.

There's always more money to be had than the producer is offering. How much more is the question.

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It's a myth to believe that a producer will cough up more money because an agent wants him to. Here's the deal folks, the movie gets budgeted and the producer starts to make offers. If agents push line items for key talent up, up, up, the movie will go over budget plain and simple. I have been in this situation many times with agents when hiring key cast. They agent says, well what's the budget of the movie? I tell them. Next I hear, well gosh you have plenty of money to pay my client a lot more than this offer! I say well no I don't there are 300 other items in the budget besides your client, and all of that needs to be paid as well.

 

I can never get over how many film crew people live in a fantasy world, and really have zero clue how a movie gets financed and budgeted. I guess I can understand it from the POV that a crew member is in their own little world and is only thinking about their own bank account. The producer has to keep the big picture in mind and that means ensuring that entire crew gets paid and that there is sufficient funds for post production.

 

When I make an offer to key crew, the amount is the amount, it's always take it or leave it. I don't think over four features one person has elected to "leave it." The reason the offer is the offer is because that's what has been budgeted. And I can't rob Peter to pay Paul. Meaning, I can't steal money from post and hand another 30% to a DOP. I mean come on guys, time for a dose of reality here.

 

Known actors are a different kettle of fish, I expect to go through quite a few offers before landing on the right square. But these are also people that have the greatest negotiating power as well.

 

R,

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There's always more money to be had than the producer is offering. How much more is the question.

 

No, that is quite incorrect. And spoken by someone I assume has never produced a movie and been responsible for its delivery and managing all the money.

 

R,

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When I make an offer to key crew, the amount is the amount, it's always take it or leave it.

 

R,

Richard, This is just a general producer question. If you frequently encounter agents submitting counter proposals, would it not make more sense then to begin with a figure that's lower than what you can afford? In order to create the impression that you are able to play nice and then eventually arrive at the figure that you already knew you could afford?

 

I am just curious if that's something that you maybe tried in the past but abandoned in favor of "This is the offer, take it or leave it." If so, what led you to giving up on negotiation? Was there just endless pushback from the agents that continually broke your ceiling?

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No, that is quite incorrect. And spoken by someone I assume has never produced a movie and been responsible for its delivery and managing all the money.

 

R,

No, never produced a movie. i have, however, produced many, many music videos, and so I'm very aware of how things are budgeted.

 

No producer ever makes his best offer up front, therefore there is always a better rate to be negotiated. Even when you reach the upper limit, if they want you bad enough, they find the money, either from other departments, or from that 10% contingency fund that they don't like to talk about.

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Richard, This is just a general producer question. If you frequently encounter agents submitting counter proposals, would it not make more sense then to begin with a figure that's lower than what you can afford? In order to create the impression that you are able to play nice and then eventually arrive at the figure that you already knew you could afford?

 

I am just curious if that's something that you maybe tried in the past but abandoned in favor of "This is the offer, take it or leave it." If so, what led you to giving up on negotiation? Was there just endless pushback from the agents that continually broke your ceiling?

 

 

This is really only done with lead actors. Standard practice for the producer to leave some, "wiggle room." So that at least the agent can go back to his client and say, hey look I'm working for you. As I said above, on the huge budget shows I'm sure the studio does come up in price to attach the very best of the elite DOPs, but if your movie budget is 175 million who really cares?

 

In the 1-3 million dollar class, I don't know of any producer who is going to waste time discounting their offers 25-30%, only to add this back on later when the agent of the crew member asks for more money. I mean really, it's just a fools game at that point and a total waste of time. I had an ASC member DOP one of my movies, and I politely explained to the agent that my offer was best and final based on the budget of the movie.

 

Again, producers are responsible for funding hundreds of line items. A crew member is only responsible for themselves.

 

R,

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No, never produced a movie. i have, however, produced many, many music videos, and so I'm very aware of how things are budgeted.

 

No producer ever makes his best offer up front, therefore there is always a better rate to be negotiated. Even when you reach the upper limit, if they want you bad enough, they find the money, either from other departments, or from that 10% contingency fund that they don't like to talk about.

 

Not how I work, just a waste of time. I don't have the time or patience for games with people that can be easily replaced.

 

The purpose of the contingency is to fund unforeseen costs, not to raise salaries up front.

 

R,

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The purpose of the contingency is to fund unforeseen costs, not to raise salaries up front.

 

 

If your preferred DP costs more than you'd budgeted, wouldn't that be an 'unforeseen cost'?

 

I've done many films and been told there is 'no money', yet they always seem to find a few extra dollars for cast, or for locations, or for stunts. The truth is that crew wages are regarded by producers as something that can always be negotiated downwards, but therefore, by extension, they can always be negotiated upwards as well.

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If your preferred DP costs more than you'd budgeted, wouldn't that be an 'unforeseen cost'?

 

 

No. A bonding company, for example, would not consider your scenario to be an unforeseen cost. An unforeseen cost would be going over days due to delays throughout the production.

 

At some point crew have to accept the fact that they are only worth so much. DOPs shooting in the 1-3 million dollar budget range are going to be a dime a dozen and easily interchangeable.

 

R,

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DOPs shooting in the 1-3 million dollar budget range are going to be a dime a dozen and easily interchangeable.

 

 

And here's where I have to respectfully, but wholeheartedly, disagree. Crew may be interchangeable from a financial point of view, but they are very rarely interchangeable on an artistic, or personal level. You may pride yourself on your hard-nosed attitude toward crew, but the truth is that most directors and producers see a value in paying a premium, however small, for the DP they want.

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I'll tell you what Stuart…..you can DOP my next film and I will budget $1000.00/day for you. However, I am only going to offer you $100.00/day. Over the course of three weeks of back and forth via your agent, you can bring me up to $1000.00/day.

 

Then you can tell everyone…we sure got the better of Richard, we made him pay me 10X his original offer!!!

 

This way you'll be happy, and I'll stay on budget, everyone is a winner!!!

 

R,

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but they are very rarely interchangeable on an artistic, or personal level.

 

I'm sorry but they are. There are so many DOPs available and all of them in the same budget range would do a great job.

 

Here's the deal, I can easily get an ASC member for just a little more than I would pay a relatively new DOP. The reason is because if that ASC DOP isn't working, he'd be happy to come out and make $1000.00/day. Especially if the phone hasn't rung for six months, which can quite often be the case. So now I have an older ASC member on the crew, who will do a great job for me. Same for production designers, same for composers, same for editors. You can usually always get someone way more experienced than an "up and comer" for the price of an up and comer, because many times the more experienced people just want to work, & need money.

 

R,

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Pretty sure this was the point I was making when I said "no producer ever makes his best offer up front".

 

And the point I'm making is that we can play games for three weeks if it makes you feel better. I just don't have time for games.

 

R,

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I'm sorry but they are. There are so many DOPs available and all of them in the same budget range would do a great job.

 

Here's the deal, I can easily get an ASC member for just a little more than I would pay a relatively new DOP. The reason is because if that ASC DOP isn't working, he'd be happy to come out and make $1000.00/day. Especially if the phone hasn't rung for six months, which can quite often be the case. So now I have an older ASC member on the crew, who will do a great job for me. Same for production designers, same for composers, same for editors. You can usually always get someone way more experienced than an "up and comer" for the price of an up and comer, because many times the more experienced people just want to work, & need money.

 

R,

I'm curious why someone who appears to have such a low opinion of DPs would choose to frequent a forum dedicated to them. In just a few posts, you've stated that they are all interchangeable, and do basically the same job, and that the only difference between an ASC member and any other DP is a matter of cost.

 

If you regard a DP as nothing more than a line item on a budget, then your interchangeable comment may be correct, but if you care in the least about their individual talents and personality, then it's hard to understand your attitude.

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And the point I'm making is that we can play games for three weeks if it makes you feel better. I just don't have time for games.

 

R,

 

 

But Richard.. you must be the only producer in the history of cinema, to actually offer up their best price straight off the bat.. your as rare as rocking horse shite.. for all the others an agent is needed :)

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My experience with producers has always been a good one.

 

When I was a trainee on features I had to negotiate my salary and I always ended up with a bit more of what they offered at the beginning.

 

When I was a 2nd AC, I had to negotiate my salary and I always ended up with a bit more of what they offered at the beginning .

 

Now, I have to negotiate my salary and I also end up getting a bit more of what they offered at the beginning .

 

And I'm talking about €50.000.000+ movies when I was trainee and 2nd AC and €1.000.000+ movies nowadays.

 

There are also cases where the producer asked me straight away what salary I was expecting and I found that that was the best position to be because you just throw a unrealistic figure and then the producer comes back to you with an actual figure of what they csn afford and that's a very honest one.

 

Rarely I have been offered a wage which was the final wage because there was no room to negotiate, as in maybe once or twice.

 

On the other hand, on commercials it has always been the case of negotiating for two or three days because the initial figure was / is absolutely ridiculous in terns of what is paid in the film industry.

 

On the topic of getting an agent, I think that it is an interesting option.

 

Agents will get your work out there to people that you don't know and even if they don't bring you any work at the beginning, having an agent is good because they know everything that is happening around and they can offer guidance on the different aspects of the business and also on different projects.

 

And as many people have stated, they talk about money and other things with the producer and if you don't like talking about money or negotiating, that's the main reason to have one.

 

For some reason, having an agent makes people think that you are more empoyable! nonsense! But that's the reality.

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I think it's worth being clear on a couple of things here.

 

Agents make a certain amount of sense for people working at high levels - TV shows or feature films with six or seven figure budgets.

 

Most of the people who want to work in film, or who ever will work in film, will do it at much lower levels than that. At that point you will not get paid very much regardless of how honest the person paying the bills (who at that level probably doesn't rate the term "producer") decides to be. No agent is interested in representing people who work at this level because it isn't worth the agent's time. They want to represent people who make $1000 a day, not people who might make a tenth of that in five years and probably make absolutely nothing now.

 

That isn't to say that there is no potential to negotiate. There often is, and Richard's approach is, as ever, tiresomely predictable. All producers plead poverty. All producers claim that their first offer is what's in the budget. It is rarely true. If only so as not to have to deal with that, an agent is desirable, at least.

 

For most people, though, it's neither available nor necessary. The reality is that by the time anyone needs an agent they'll already know all about them and probably have the right contacts. If you have to ask, it's not for you. It's not for most people.

P

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And to be fair, Richard, I have personally walked into a location with a producer that told me... as we were walking in... that she had a $1000 for the location, but when the owner asked what the producer could pay, she said $500 and the owner happily took it. Point is, you don't lie about how much you have in the budget, but many producers absolutely do. And I've called producers I've worked with out on this and they told me everyone has to lie a little bit if they want to produce anything. Which is also a lie.

 

It's actually refreshing to here a producer say lying about the budget is a waste of time. ^_^ :P

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I'm curious why someone who appears to have such a low opinion of DPs would choose to frequent a forum dedicated to them. In just a few posts, you've stated that they are all interchangeable, and do basically the same job, and that the only difference between an ASC member and any other DP is a matter of cost.

 

If you regard a DP as nothing more than a line item on a budget, then your interchangeable comment may be correct, but if you care in the least about their individual talents and personality, then it's hard to understand your attitude.

 

 

Well Stuart are you trying to tell me that a certain DOP is crucial to the making of a particular movie? And unless the producer can hire this particular DOP the movie cannot be made?

 

Unless that is your position, then yes, the DOP along with all other crew and dept heads are interchangeable.

 

R,

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That isn't to say that there is no potential to negotiate. There often is, and Richard's approach is, as ever, tiresomely predictable. All producers plead poverty. All producers claim that their first offer is what's in the budget. It is rarely true. If only so as not to have to deal with that, an agent is desirable, at least.

 

You know Phil, an employee does not have a right to an employers money. The employee has a right to say no to an offer from an employer and walk away, they have that right. Nothing more.

 

Maybe you don't realize what you are promoting with your philosophy, you are actually encouraging the producer to make low offers, when he knows the agent/employee will come back and ask for more money. Since all crew are of the misguided idea that there's always more money.

 

Again, many of you don't seem to get it, not that I blame any of you as none of you have ever produced a movie. You've never signed the papers for a seven figure bank loan that will be used to cash flow the production, I have.

 

So I say again, and again, and again, the producer is responsible for the entire budget, that means ensuring there is sufficient funds to pay out every single line item. So adding more money to salaries just because an agent asks for more cannot be done without endangering the entire production. Besides the on-set crew only cares about how much money they can scoop out of the production while they are on set, they don't give a hoot about all the post production that is to come that they will have no involvement in.

 

I have dealt with IATSE 667 in Toronto, and their attitude has always been very clear….Richard we don't give a poop about you or your production, we want as much money as we can get for our members and that's it. This attitude is quite prevalent amongst many crew, not all, but quite a few.

 

I think many of you need to concede that there needs to be someone on set who says the word….no. If there wasn't then you'd have chaos and no movie would ever get completed as the crew would scarf down the entire budget like a shark eating the carcass of a dead whale.

 

R,

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I think many of you need to concede that there needs to be someone on set who says the word….no.

 

Oh, absolutely. I've told a lot more producers to piss off than have ever said no to me, which, if you think about it, is every reason that I should probably be a lot more demanding.

 

:D

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I personally think that negotiations are a waste of time.

 

All people being hired should have the budget documents itemised and see how the money is being distributed, that would make things easier for the line producer and for the crew members so everybody knows what things cost and the reason why things can't go up or down.

 

To be fair, I've never produced a 7 figure movie but I was in all stages of pre / prod and post as an intern in two really big (at the time :D) Spanish movies learning how things affect the final budget and it was a very helpful experience, it actually is very interesting knowing how to deal with insurances and banks, which is something that I enjoyed at the time.

 

I have also found that in narrative projects everybody is more straight forward than in commercials.

 

And you are right, everybody is interchangeable in narrative projects.. not in commercials tho!

 

Did I ever say that I wanted to become a producer when I started studying??

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Did I ever say that I wanted to become a producer when I started studying??

 

 

No, and you made a smart career choice to avoid it.

 

R,

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