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Having arguments with your director


Daniel Meier

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Interesting thread, ..

 

my question becomes, what if your style and the directors style are complete opposites?

 

Example, Director likes MANY camera movements, zooms etc, .. and you are more trying to keep the camera

from being noticed and interfering w the story?

 

Are there times when you should just say you're not comfortable? how do you handle these?

I realize we have to pay bills, eat etc, .. but is there a time when you shouldn't?

 

I guess a good producer wouldn't put two opposites together, and you'd find these things out in Pre.

 

You always have the option to turn the job down. That's why you should talk to the director beforehand and get a clear understanding of the visuals for the movie. If you all can't come to an agreement, well, you both have the option to walk away. But usually a director will seek out a dp/cinematographer because they like their prior work and want that cinematographers' style for their movie. Michael Bay like a lot of camera movements on long lenses, David Fincher like more static shots on wider lenses, they both work with cinematographers that's good at giving them the look they're after.

Edited by Reggie A Brown
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I think unfortunately not everyone is in a position to turn down jobs with directors whose style they aren't into.

I am getting to a point where I can be slightly selective over my work, but if its a good gig, paying my full rate the director for me is into whatever they are into and I will do my utmost to realize their vision in a way that I feel is professional and as fitting as I can get to what I believe it should be.

 

I think a level of trust has to come into it as well, when your working at a certain level most directors should know what they are talking about to a degree (should being the key word here, definitely not always the case) and I think part of our job is finding a way to constructively and un-offensively suggest ideas and to start a collaborative discussion where your ideas are taken seriously and seen as contribution, not opposition.

 

Its a side of the job that is very much overlooked in my opinion - the relationships you form with everyone around you play a huge role in whether the final piece is something you are happy with.

 

I think something here to take into account is we are not talking solely features or narrative work - I work predominately in commercials currently.

Edited by Jordan Buck
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Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts on this one.

 

This was a student film. But those were no students of a film school. It was some type of media school, where they teach you everything including production, sound, editing, camera, directing, graphic design, animation. You know, the ones where most of the graduates end up as a jack of all trades.

 

I came into this project as a substitue DOP. As their first-choice-DP left, to do a paid job.

 

@ Macks Fiiod:

It was a No-Budget shoot. I did not get paid.

 

@ Reggie:

Thanks for the Youtube link. That Cooke TV channel is full of interesting videos.

 

@ Oron:

I see your point right there. But I think the same applies to music video as well. As they can even be stronger on the visual side at times.

 

I guess my problem here was, that I was used to the style of other directors I'd been working with before. Which would give me way more freedom and trust in my work.

This has been the first letdown as such. And since I wouldn't get paid, I at least wanted to enjoy shooting a dialogue the way I had always dreamed about. As this was my first dialogue scene ever.

But whenever I was about to suggest another way of approaching a shot, I could feel that vibration in the air, before even asking her. I guess the chemistry just wasn't right.

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On some sets both the director and dp may be treated as "for hires" like anyone else so in that case, if they decide to sink the ship either due to incompetence or poor planning, organization etc. becoming a yes man and a partner in that effort may lead to both of you being fired. If they are running the production into the ground, definitely have a word with the 1st A.D. and UPM. Though I would expect these folks to be well aware of it if you are consistently not making your day and the reasons are obvious.

Edited by Michael LaVoie
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@ Macks Fiiod:

It was a No-Budget shoot. I did not get paid.

If the director is ALREADY deferring to others, it's only common courtesy that they should take your word on most things as the cinematographer volunteering services for free.

Like the only thing you're really getting out of it is a portfolio piece, so you may as well make sure it'd be something you'd at least like to represent your talents.

 

My statements there are only applicable to your situation of variables. Protocol for other freebies will be different depending on who you're working with.

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I think when someone is giving up their time for free.. the rules of a professional gig don't apply.. they should also take into account your doing them a "favor" .. its not a hired gun situation .. and if the dir is asking other people on set how to shoot something.. they should be giving greater weight to the dp.. but basically its why you have long standing relationships between Dir and Dp,s.. to avoid your situation .. many equally famous and accomplished Dir and Dp,s have had major fallings out during production.. so Pre isnt always going to catch it.. style and temperament I guess.. you work with people you get on with..

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many equally famous and accomplished Dir and Dp,s have had major fallings out during production.. so Pre isnt always going to catch it.. .

Sure, but those kinds of fall outs are not over the very simple and basic disagreements presented in this thread.

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Daniel, I think you have to chalk this one up to a learning experience. Now that you've got this experience under your belt, apply what you've learned on the next shoot.

 

And take into account that you can always say no to a gig. As others have said, if you have qualms about a job offer, then try to get as much info as possible before committing. You should be getting something of value out of it - experience, connections, money, showreel material, favors, the satisfaction of helping a worthy cause, or perhaps just fun with good friends. If there's nothing in it for you, then you probably shouldn't take the gig.

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What if your style and the directors style are complete opposites?

 

Example, Director likes MANY camera movements, zooms etc, .. and you are more trying to keep the camera

from being noticed and interfering w the story?

 

Well, you have two choices - try and work it out, understanding that ultimately you are there to serve the director and assist them. Or find a way to gracefully bow out of the project, which is sometimes easier said than done.

 

The thing is, your 'style' basically just comes down to personal taste. Now hopefully, the director has offered you the job because they enjoy your work and share your taste. But if not, then perhaps they simply want the benefit of your experience.

 

Or they like you personally and trust you to complete their job on time and budget.

 

On a darker note, maybe the equipment included in your bid is just enough to win you the job over the DP they really wanted.

 

Or in the worst case, they just need a warm body to push the record button.

 

In these scenarios, 'your style' is not really relevant to the job, or at best of minor importance. Nobody likes to think this is the case of course, but it happens all the time. Every job has unique parameters and expectations, and it's good to keep them straight.

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Sure, but those kinds of fall outs are not over the very simple and basic disagreements presented in this thread.

 

 

You,d think so.. but Ive seen happen over basics too... but most likely underlying personalty trait dislikes bringing it to the fore.. the DP working on the Wolverines shoot in Tokyo.. just got in a taxi and left,got on a plane the next day.. there have been alot of big name DP/Dir bust ups way into actual shooting.. Ive only had it on a very smaller scale.. once in 20 odd years which is pretty good.. but I don't really go along with this your just a remote for the director.. and he/she takes the glory or humiliation .. my name is on there too.. thats how dp,s get work.. other dir,s see your credit.. if the director is asking for a really just plain card carrying fully paid up crap shot..purely down to their not having any talent /experience..nothing to do with style etc.. I really wont do it.. or at least shoot it two ways.. Im not there to pan, tilt and invoice.. that would be the day to retire to my Rose garden.. :).. but yes end of the day.. you will not gt on with some directors.. thats fine.. but they have to listen to you too.. its not a one way street.. we arnt just a remote motion control unit.. or a packet of corn flakes..

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If this is the case and you're doing the job because you cannot afford not to, then do what the Director wants and be fabulous to work with in order to get more work and more trust and more involvement next time.

 

I think unfortunately not everyone is in a position to turn down jobs with directors whose style they aren't into.

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Cinematographers live and die not only based on the quality (and how quickly one achieves said quality) of their work but by their reputation as well. Two candidates for the position of cinematographer on a shoot can have equally impressive reels and resumes but the question often asked to break the tie is with whom would you prefer to be locked in a sound stage for 14 hours? One's reputation precedes them prior to the interview process......a director or producer looks at a prospective D.P.s resume and checks in with the people this person has previously worked with......"how was candidate A to work with?"......you do not want the answer to be "he/she was a pain in the ass, argued about every set up."

One will have a very short career, if any career at all if this becomes the perception.

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Daniel, I think you have to chalk this one up to a learning experience. Now that you've got this experience under your belt, apply what you've learned on the next shoot.

 

Yeah, I'm definitely glad for having made that experience. You grow by your challenges. And there were also some good aspects about it. For example, I have had a wonderful lighting crew.

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Well, they don't have to, but they should.

 

haha yes ! ..Im not putting myself in this position .. but you,ll usually see a producer put a novice director with an experienced DP.. makes sense to cover their a r s e ... (and an experienced Dir can deal with a novice DP.. )... I know the dir is the boss,and yes not a good career move to be an A hole on set.. but equally I personally don't think the DP is there just as a camera remote for the dir ..thats actually doing a disservice to the dir..

Edited by Robin R Probyn
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Phil's point is a very good one.

 

I consider myself a nice guy with good people skills. I think the people I've worked with would attest to that. But many times during my career I've felt I should fight more for certain things, make more of a fuss and force things through. Be more demanding, and less compromising. If I'd done that, it might have improved my work some. But here's what I realized:

 

If you're a hot DP (I'm obviously not talking about myself;), you are highly in demand and can choose to do the best jobs, you probably got there because you didn't compromise much. That's what built your reel. That and your taste. However, if you continue to not compromise and be demanding, the minute you're not the hottest kid on the block anymore, you'll get dropped like a stone. Seen it a million times with hotshot DP's I know that belonged in that category. There's always a new hot DP around the corner they want to use and if your unpleasant, uncompromising and known as a budget breaker, they'll stick it to you the minute you're not cool anymore. So although in the short run being a demanding, no-compromise DP can give you initial benefits, it's not a recipe for longevity.

 

The trick is to fight just enough fights to safeguard the quality of some of the work (not every job is work fighting for, not all the work can be made good) and then be a pleasant human being that people enjoy being around.

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It's the Director's film. Always has been. Always will be.

If a Director you're working with isn't clear on the visuals, and is seeking random people's opinions on how they should approach them - then you (as a DoP) have failed (at the most fundamental level) to provide the support that your Director needs, or to firmly establish yourself as the head of your own department.

And I'm afraid that in such circumstances, you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

I can't see any way in which any of these things could be the Director's 'fault'.

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I'm so glad to have seen this discussion for no other reason than to hear another DP also having trouble with a director (or wannabes director in some cases).

 

I'm on a short film (freebie for my reel) where the director has been rewriting the story every time he sees a new location. Now he wants a dolly shot in littered woods this weekend and we've not pre-arranged the proper gear for such a shot. It's a shame because the story has potential (written by the director), but the captain of the ship is really green.

Sorry to vent. Sometimes I want to go be a director just so I can be the kind of director a DP wants to work with. *headdesk*

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In that instance I'd be a person that offers solutions. Always great to be a person who takes problems away instead of adding to them. Take him to one side away from the rest of the crew and outline the issues and how you can get round them. Give him options on how to get the coverage he needs given the constraints he has and let him make the decision. And if you're clever, present the options in a way that will make him pick the way you want to do it but will make it seem like it was his idea.

Edited by Ben Scott
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I'm on a short film (freebie for my reel) where the director has been rewriting the story every time he sees a new location. Now he wants a dolly shot in littered woods this weekend and we've not pre-arranged the proper gear for such a shot. It's a shame because the story has potential (written by the director), but the captain of the ship is really green.

Sorry to vent. Sometimes I want to go be a director just so I can be the kind of director a DP wants to work with. *headdesk*

 

This is tricky, because we don't know how much you guys talked before hand. Did you ask the director how he works or plan to work? did you made a small test shoot before hand? did you discussed how to you both see each other working together? did you discussed in depth the visual style of the film?

 

If the answer to some of the questions is NO, so I believe you should suck it up and learn that next time you will, as you can't just tell him he is not doing what you planned (many directors work in the way you describe, like Coppola on apocalypse now).

 

However the answer to all the questions is YES, you should stop doing what he asks, take him for a chat and discuss with him what's going on and why his he doing what he's doing, especially if you feel it will heart the visual style of the film. If the answers don't satisfy you you can place your red line there, and say you're not going to do it (this is an extreme example though). usually you can sort something out, if you listen carefully to the director.

 

This is my perspective of course, sure people have more to say.

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