22fps for car action scene?

[Vince Sweeney]

Looking for experiences doing car or general action scenes shot at a slightly slower frame rate. The goal in this case is to help slightly speed up two cars in a simple chase while keeping it realistic looking.

 

An experienced DP once told me that he had done that for some car action shots and found that 22fps was a sweet spot to give the cars more drama, since the stunt cars had to be driven slower than the director was wanting for safety. He said 21fps was where it became noticeable and 23 didn't make enough difference.

 

I recall what seemed like slower rates being used on Hal Needham movies like the Cannonball Run and often on 80's TV shows like Knight Rider. I assume they were dipping down to 20 or more.

 

I would think that it may be useful, and maybe even more so when a person isn't in frame which could make unnatural speed movements more obvious.

[Gregory Irwin]

Ive worked on the majority of the Fast & Furious pictures (in addition to numerous other action pics) and we constantly shoot our action sequences at 22 FPS & 90 degree shutter. Its just enough of a frame rate change to enhance the action without calling attention to the change.

 

G

[Bruce Greene]

I have another idea. Shoot your chase at 48 fps and 359 degree shutter.

 

Why?

 

This may give your more choice in post production speed changes. You can always drop every other frame to get a true 24fps action. But, if you speed it up or create ramping speed changes, you will have extra "in between" frames to use to smooth the motion. Especially if you ramp the speed change rather than apply a simple speed change.

 

Before you begin production, take your camera, or any camera that has control over the frame rate, and experiment with this shooting cars on the street and changing the frame rates in post. If you still have some "jitters", try applying some motion smoothing to the footage to create the "missing" frames. Having the extra frames in the original file may help you gain more realistic frame rate changes than only having 24 original frames each second.

 

At the very least, you should be able to determine what frame rate gets you the results you are after.

[Vince Sweeney]

Thanks Gregory! That solidly confirms the idea.

 

48/359 may be worth experimenting with but as this will be shot on 35mm film, 22 is more attractive.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Vince Sweeney

[Bruce Greene]

Thanks Gregory! That solidly confirms the idea.

 

48/359 may be worth experimenting with but as this will be shot on 35mm film, 22 is more attractive.

Yes, I assumed a digital capture :)

[Dom Jaeger]

The Mad Max films used quite noticeably sped up frame rates that I always loved, a kind of signature look to the series. I don't know what the frame rates were, but just from the look of it I would guess it was down under 20 fps for some scenes.

[Robin R Probyn]

In the case of Digital capture.. would it be better to shoot normal frame rate and do the "speed up" process in post.. rather than baking in the look at source ..?

[Bruce Greene]

In the case of Digital capture.. would it be better to shoot normal frame rate and do the "speed up" process in post.. rather than baking in the look at source ..?

Yes and no. I only suggested shooting at 48fps so that one would have a lot of frames to blend to make a new frame rate in post.

 

But, shooting 24 fps and changing to 22fps in post can look pretty ugly, especially with cars traversing the frame. Very jerky. If you shoot 22 fps in the camera, it will look more natural, with all the correct frames appearing at the correct time. You can apply frame blending in post, but with the missing frames so far apart, there will be artifacts often. i suggested shooting 48fps to minimize frame blending artifacts when changing frame rates in computer post production.

[Robin R Probyn]

Yes and no. I only suggested shooting at 48fps so that one would have a lot of frames to blend to make a new frame rate in post.

 

But, shooting 24 fps and changing to 22fps in post can look pretty ugly, especially with cars traversing the frame. Very jerky. If you shoot 22 fps in the camera, it will look more natural, with all the correct frames appearing at the correct time. You can apply frame blending in post, but with the missing frames so far apart, there will be artifacts often. i suggested shooting 48fps to minimize frame blending artifacts when changing frame rates in computer post production.

 

 

Yes not questioning your advise at all.. I didn't even understand it..!..well over my head.. just a general question.. interesting though..

[David Kobzantsev]

On 12/8/2018 at 4:25 AM, Gregory Irwin said:

Ive worked on the majority of the Fast & Furious pictures (in addition to numerous other action pics) and we constantly shoot our action sequences at 22 FPS & 90 degree shutter. Its just enough of a frame rate change to enhance the action without calling attention to the change.

 

G

Hi Gregory! Do you by chance know how fast your stunt cars were going (MPH) when you filmed them at 22 FPS & 90 degree shutter? (It's so amazing to hear your advice on this thread--such amazing talented work on the Fast & Furious pictures.) Thank you! 

[roberto schaefer]

I've worked with 2nd unit Director par excellance Dan Bradley who is a master of car chases and crashes. He always had us shooting at 22fps but not a 90º shutter. He adjusted the shutter enough to replicate 24/180. To keep the same motion blur feel but just sped up a little to add an edge to it all.

[David Mullen ASC]

14 hours ago, roberto schaefer said:

I've worked with 2nd unit Director par excellance Dan Bradley who is a master of car chases and crashes. He always had us shooting at 22fps but not a 90º shutter. He adjusted the shutter enough to replicate 24/180. To keep the same motion blur feel but just sped up a little to add an edge to it all.

Yes, I wouldn't do both a short shutter AND a reduced frame rate, one or the other. I find shooting at 24 fps with a 144, 100, or 90 degree shutter will make fast motion look a bit less sloppy, more precise, and feel slightly sped-up.  Or I'd shoot at 22 fps with a 180 degree shutter (or whatever gives you 1/48th per frame as Roberto is suggesting.)

[Thuryn Mitchell]

Just to get my head wrapped around this concept : the workflow suggested here is to
shoot at 22fps and then speed it up to 24fps in post? Or drop 22fps shot footage in a

24fps timeline? Sorry , im a little confused. 

Thanks in advance! 

[Dan Finlayson]

@Thuryn Mitchell You'll always want your timeline/sequence in your NLE to be set to 24fps (or 23.976 when appropriate).  You'll then want to tell your NLE to play back your 22fps footage at 24fps instead.  You can now drop it in your timeline like any other footage

[Thuryn Mitchell]

Thanks for the clarification Dan!