Mathew Collins Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Hi, A Question related to workflow of between camera negative and release print. The Inter Negative(I.N.) is printed to Release print. While processing the release print, what layers of dye would be present in Release prints? Is it same layers as I.N.? Yellow, Magenta and Cyan layers? How the color reproduction happening in screen while going thru projector? -Mathew Collins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted July 13, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 13, 2019 Print stocks were (well, still are) made to have very low sensitivity, so they have extremely fine grain, and there may be some tweaks to the colour response and contrast to ensure things come out looking nice. Other people may be able to say more about that. At its core, though, it's all colour film producing a negative image using broadly the same basic chemistry. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Collins Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 Just now, Phil Rhodes said: Print stocks were (well, still are) made to have very low sensitivity, so they have extremely fine grain, and there may be some tweaks to the colour response and contrast to ensure things come out looking nice. Other people may be able to say more about that. At its core, though, it's all colour film producing a negative image using broadly the same basic chemistry. P Thank you Phil. How would the image formed on screen, when white light passed through the Y,M,C layers of release print? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 The print stock is indeed sensitive to yellow, magenta and cyan, as these are the dyes present in the IN, but the layers are developed to blue, green and red, respectively, as these are the dyes required to produce a positive image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted July 13, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 13, 2019 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtractive_color Actually the color dyes in a print are yellow, cyan, and magenta in order to create all the colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted July 13, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 13, 2019 https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/2383_ti2397.pdf see page 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Collins Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) Just now, David Mullen ASC said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtractive_color Actually the color dyes in a print are yellow, cyan, and magenta in order to create all the colors. When projector light passes through the print, does it have to pass thru 3 layers, first, Green sensitive emulsion ie; Magenta Layer Next, Red sensitive emulsion ie; Cyan layer and finally Blue sensitive emulsion ie; Yellow layer Then no light will be passed. I think there is something wrong with my understanding. Edited July 13, 2019 by Mathew Collins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted July 14, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 14, 2019 You’re mixing up the concept of exposing the raw print stock with light versus passing light through the developed print. In the unexposed print stock, there are emulsion layers sensitive to colors that when processed form yellow, cyan, and magenta dyes. In the processed print, there can be areas with no dye, allowing white to be on the screen, or just one dye, or two dyes over each other, or all three dyes over each other. Unexposed film stock is opaque — processed film is semi-transparent. When the white projector light passes through yellow dye, you get yellow on the screen, when it passes through cyan, you get cyan, when it passes through magenta, you get magenta. But when you have two dyes over each other: yellow + magenta = red yellow + cyan = green cyan + magenta = blue and yellow + magenta + cyan = black This is a subtractive process, the dye in the print is filtering out certain color wavelengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 19 hours ago, David Mullen ASC said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtractive_color Actually the color dyes in a print are yellow, cyan, and magenta in order to create all the colors. Thanks for the correction, I've obviously had that misconception for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Collins Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, David Mullen ASC said: You’re mixing up the concept of exposing the raw print stock with light versus passing light through the developed print. In the unexposed print stock, there are emulsion layers sensitive to colors that when processed form yellow, cyan, and magenta dyes. In the processed print, there can be areas with no dye, allowing white to be on the screen, or just one dye, or two dyes over each other, or all three dyes over each other. Unexposed film stock is opaque — processed film is semi-transparent. When the white projector light passes through yellow dye, you get yellow on the screen, when it passes through cyan, you get cyan, when it passes through magenta, you get magenta. But when you have two dyes over each other: yellow + magenta = red yellow + cyan = green cyan + magenta = blue and yellow + magenta + cyan = black This is a subtractive process, the dye in the print is filtering out certain color wavelengths. David, Thanks for the information. Every time your one replay clears many questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Collins Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) In the ECN-2 processing given in the link, https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf The order of emulsion layers in Negative are in the order Yellow, Magenta, Cyan layers from the top to bottom. But in KODAK VISION Color Print Film / 2383 https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/2383_ti2397.pdf or in ECP-2E Processing document, https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2409(2).pdf The layers in the print film are given in a different order, Magenta, Cyan, Yellow .Any specific reasons for this change in order? Edited July 16, 2019 by Mathew Collins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 16, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 16, 2019 http://www.brianpritchard.com/colour_films_with_unusual_sensit.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Collins Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) > http://www.brianpritchard.com/colour_films_with_unusual_sensit.htm Thank you Simon. Good information in the link. Magenta layer is sharpest and changed as top layer in positive films. But Kodak did not follow the same order in Negative films. Edited July 17, 2019 by Mathew Collins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 17, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 17, 2019 Negatives aren’t optically enlarged several hundred times like positives in projection. The negative image is generally transferred at one-to-one ratio on printers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Collins Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 Thank you Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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