Jump to content

Sony F5 questions


Max Field

Recommended Posts

I know many here are CineAlta fans (and haters) so I'll dump the following questions here:

1.Without the expansion box, what is the highest possible quality of recording? ProRes 10 bit? Something comparable?
2. Is the dynamic range really 14 stops?
3. How are the skin tones?
4. Does it chew through batteries?
5. Is it good at around $6000 or will the camera go lower?
6. What is the sensor size? I know "Super35" leaves a bit of variation in millimeters..

Thanks to any and all who can answer!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's been a while since I used one, but:

1. The F5 uses XAVC - I, which is a 10 bit 4.2.2 codec. We used to transcode to ProRes for post, but these days a lot more software can cope with XAVC natively.

2. Yes. Bear in mind that the native ISO for the F5 in Cine-EI mode is 2000, and it is considered a little noisy. Because of this most users rate the camera at 800 ISO to clean the shadows up, at the expense of 1 1/3 stops of highlight detail.

3. I've never had any complaints about the F5's color. It's not the same color science or sensor as the more expensive F55, but it still looks good.

4. Not sure about this. I don't remember having to change batteries more often than any other camera.

5. Who knows?

6. The sensor is the same width as s35, but it's 17:9 not 16:9, so it's not as tall.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

in the productions I have been in the F5 was usually rated between 1000 and 1600 ISO if light levels allowed. These were mostly for large screen cinema release almost exclusively shot in RAW and for less demanding applications the 2000 may be OK depending on the shot type and content. 

It is a wonderful multi-purpose camera with clever intermediate lens mount system with sturdy adapters. There is still no good alternatives to it for higher budget doc uses we need it for (the DP upgraded to F55 and the newer X-OCN capable recorder when it came out but still the same system. if you need raw with it, don't bother with the old recorder unless you can get it for free. the x-ocn is much better format especially if shooting larger amounts of material... the old almost uncompressed raw is complete overkill for any application and just uses lot more storage space) . 

There is noticeable difference in colours between F5 and F55, the F5 being a little more video-ish especially on greens

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Power consumption on the F5 body alone (no EVF, no recorder, etc) is about 25W, which is reasonably frugal. Things like the AXS-R5 and a viewfinder might be more or less permanently installed, though, so figure, eh, double that? I'm guessing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
On 1/21/2020 at 2:47 AM, Max Field said:

5. Is it good at around $6000 or will the camera go lower?


The FS7 has been such a successful camera, and for most shoots performance so close / identical to a F5 (in fact some people will prefer / request a FS7 over an F5!) that this has forced secondhand prices of a F5 to go way way down. 

An F5 will sell for only a little more than a FS7, or just sometimes sometimes, if you're really lucky, the same as an FS7!

There are however less F5 cameras for sale than FS7, simply because the FS7 is a far far more popular camera, so prices of an F5 vs FS7 might lag a little until we see more F5 sales data pop up. 

But we're seeing FS7 cameras already selling for sub US$3K, and I'm sure they'll hit $2.5K before this coronavirus economic crisis is over. 

Which makes me predict that we'll see this year an F5 sell for approximately half of that "around $6K" figure you were thinking of. In the general $3K ish region. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/23/2020 at 5:13 AM, Max Field said:

Thanks guys, oh one last thing. When it shoots in 2k does the sensor get cropped? Or does it capture the whole thing and downscale?

You've got both options. Although I think if you want the top end 2K high speed options, you'll need to crop it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • Premium Member
On 1/20/2020 at 5:47 AM, Max Field said:

1.Without the expansion box, what is the highest possible quality of recording? ProRes 10 bit? Something comparable?
2. Is the dynamic range really 14 stops?
3. How are the skin tones?
4. Does it chew through batteries?
5. Is it good at around $6000 or will the camera go lower?
6. What is the sensor size? I know "Super35" leaves a bit of variation in millimeters..

Thanks to any and all who can answer!

1. 4096x2160 XAVC 480mbit/sec. 422 10bit. Base frame rate only. Great codec. Need to drop down to 300mbit/sec to get variable speed shooting. Just make sure the camera comes pre-installed with the 4K License if you buy used. 

There is a Prores Board Upgrade avail that allows 1080p Prores4444 in RGB recording mode. But it’s not useful as a mastering codec since it’s only HD, locked at the base frame rate, and has more noise than the 4K XAVC 480 codec. Results may be different in the F55, I am only talking about the F5.

2. Close, but with more stops allocated to shadows than highlights. Alexa has more overall dynamic range, and several stops more in the highlights if you rate the camera slower, as most people do. I use 1250 ISO with SLog3, which allows for 5.3 Stops over middle grey before clipping.

3. Depends on your color grading skills. There’s enough color information with the top codec and S-Gamut.cine/SLog3 for decent results. 

4. Very battery efficient - I think it’s around 35w with the LCD EVF and no Raw Recorder. You can easily get by with 4x 100wH batteries or 2x 150wH batteries a day. 

5. No idea. Definitely would buy used and not new though. 

6. I believe the sensor height is under 13mm, so on the smaller side for S35. Hasn’t been a problem for me. But if you shoot a lot of 2x anamorphic format, then I would go with a larger sensor camera. 

7. Your choice of 2K Full Sensor or 2K Crop. The Full sensor is doing some line-skipping or similar shenanigans that cause visible moire. The 2K Crop does a full scan, so it’s just noisier and softer. Can use it with S16mm zooms if you want extended focal range in a single lens. Tried it once, it’s a little too soft and noisy for my taste. There is a 2K OLPF avail if you are shooting a lot of 2K Full Sensor that helps to soften the moire. A bit of a pain to swap out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2020 at 2:38 PM, David Peterson said:


The FS7 has been such a successful camera, and for most shoots performance so close / identical to a F5 (in fact some people will prefer / request a FS7 over an F5!) that this has forced secondhand prices of a F5 to go way way down. 

An F5 will sell for only a little more than a FS7, or just sometimes sometimes, if you're really lucky, the same as an FS7!

There are however less F5 cameras for sale than FS7, simply because the FS7 is a far far more popular camera, so prices of an F5 vs FS7 might lag a little until we see more F5 sales data pop up. 

But we're seeing FS7 cameras already selling for sub US$3K, and I'm sure they'll hit $2.5K before this coronavirus economic crisis is over. 

Which makes me predict that we'll see this year an F5 sell for approximately half of that "around $6K" figure you were thinking of. In the general $3K ish region. 

f5 is a better camera than the fs7.. for many reasons   ..  mainly the EVF ,the fs7 is really bad in Rez and construction .,Side LCD panel ,hot buttons and menu display, 4 x SDI , DC in XLR, Lemo plug.. and basic stuff like TC in and V mount ..and a pro level lens mount ..  and the overall construction is far more superior.. alloy than plastic..

The main reason there are alot of f5,s for sale now, I sold mine too, is because we have all gone over to the Fx9 , as the fs7 was always a step backwards ..the fx9 being worthy of the change ..f55 owners are also going to the fx9.. or owning both ..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

1.Without the expansion box, what is the highest possible quality of recording? ProRes 10 bit? Something comparable?

There's several options:
- 4k XAVC Class480 (the best non-raw 4k codec on the camera - this is a solid option)
- 4k XAVC Class300 (too thin for my tastes, you need to drop down to this to record 4k @ 50/60p)
- 1080p SR444 (my favourite internal codec on the camera - PERFECT supersampled 4:4:4 HD, tops out at 30p though)


2. Is the dynamic range really 14 stops?

Close-enough. The highlight latitude is very good, you get 6-stops of overexposure headroom, which is excellent.

3. How are the skin tones?


Fine IF you know how to grade the footage well. Always shoot SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine for the best results, the more limited colour gamut is much easier to wrangle nice results out of in post (and works okay, with a bit of tweaking, with the S709 colour science from the Venice).

4. Does it chew through batteries?


No, it sips them. Power is a non-issue on the F5/F55 (compared to other cameras)

5. Is it good at around $6000 or will the camera go lower?


$6000 is a BARGAIN. The prices of all digital cameras will always be falling (as they're superceded), but the F5(5) as still so relevant, that I don't think they drop much lower than this for quite some time to come.

6. What is the sensor size? I know "Super35" leaves a bit of variation in millimeters.

It's pretty close to standard S35mm 24 x 12.7mm you won't notice any real difference between it and a 16:9 Alexa or Canon C300 (they're all in the same ballpark).


Here are some links to framegrabs from narrative pieces I shot on the F5:

At Last (shot in SR444): 
http://dreamsmiths.com.au/#/atlast/

Untitled_1.159.1.jpg?format=2500w

Max (shot in 4k Raw) http://dreamsmiths.com.au/#/max/
Max_2.15.3.jpg?format=1500w

Splendor Solis (shot in 4k Raw): http://dreamsmiths.com.au/#/splendor-solis/
Splendor-Solis-Grade_1.80.1_1.jpg?format

Walk the Earth (I think shot in 4k XAVC): http://dreamsmiths.com.au/#/walk-the-earth/
WTE+Grab_8.jpg?format=1500w

 

Edited by Mark Kenfield
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Great stuff as always Mark! That desert extreme wide shot is epic.

I've not bothered with SR444, but I've shot Prores4444 internal in RGB mode. I was getting an excessive amount of noise even at 640 ISO, so I quickly switched back to XAVC 480. This was after running APR and Black Balance multiple times. Could it be just my camera?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Interesting, I've never actually encountered an F5(5) with the Prores upgrade before, so haven't been able to put it to use personally (the lack of 2k and 50p/60p in 4:4:4 made it difficult to justify the cost).

I always found SR444 extremely clean (rated at my usual 1000 ISO - which was were my F5 actually exposed SLOG2/3 properly).

Probably worth comparing the internal Prores4444 to SR444 output and see if there's a difference.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/8/2020 at 3:03 PM, Robin R Probyn said:

f5 is a better camera than the fs7.. for many reasons   ..  mainly the EVF ,the fs7 is really bad in Rez and construction .,Side LCD panel ,hot buttons and menu display, 4 x SDI , DC in XLR, Lemo plug.. and basic stuff like TC in and V mount ..and a pro level lens mount ..  and the overall construction is far more superior.. alloy than plastic..

I'm not disagreeing about the F5 being a better camera! Is why I keep on being tempted back to the dark side, to buy a new camera such as the F5 to upgrade from my F3

However, most people don't see the point in an F5 over and FS7 and won't pay extra for an F5. Thus why we're seeing a situation where an F5 can sell for very similar prices (or just slightly more) to a FS7 secondhand. 

  

On 7/8/2020 at 3:03 PM, Robin R Probyn said:

The main reason there are alot of f5,s for sale now, I sold mine too, is because we have all gone over to the Fx9 , as the fs7 was always a step backwards ..the fx9 being worthy of the change ..f55 owners are also going to the fx9.. or owning both ..

Yes, I've got a friend who is an F5 owner and just got the FX9. We're doing a shoot together for an advert this monday. 

BTW, totally random factoid: I just heard about a Sony F5 that had been modded to have a Lemo timecode input instead of BNC!! :-o 

Edited by David Peterson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, David Peterson said:

I'm not disagreeing about the F5 being a better camera! Is why I keep on being tempted back to the dark side, to buy a new camera such as the F5 to upgrade from my F3

However, most people don't see the point in an F5 over and FS7 and won't pay extra for an F5. Thus why we're seeing a situation where an F5 can sell for very similar prices (or just slightly more) to a FS7 secondhand. 

  

Yes, I've got a friend who is an F5 owner and just got the FX9. We're doing a shoot together for an advert this monday. 

BTW, totally random factoid: I just heard about a Sony F5 that had been modded to have a Lemo timecode input instead of BNC!! ?

Thanks .. yes I was also talking generally too sir  ..  the times Ive had to point out the differences  have been many ? ..  Fs7 II .. I used it a couple of times .. and have to say the variable ND .. its hard to not have that once used .. but everything else was a pain.. massively the lack of TC in.. (what were they thinking ).. but then came the fx9.. needs a couple of FW up dates .. V2 should have been now but COVID delay..  but still its the new Fs7 in that its by far the best bang for the buck at $10k. ish .. the 6k down sample makes up for the lack of  class 480 , plus the encoder is much  improved from the 8 year old f5/55 tech.. alot of Venice progress in the Fx9..  you'll like it Im sure ..

Never heard of the Lemo TC for f5/55.. I guess they had their reasons .. Ive found BNC to be fine personally .. 

Edited by Robin R Probyn
TC comment
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...