Kinetta

[Mitch Gross]

Well that makes no sense to me. A Panaflex can use a short eyepiece or a long one. Guess what--so can a Betacam or an Arri SR or an Aaton or whatever. On any of these cameras when you use the short eyepiece handheld you can certainly pull your own focus.

 

I find the Aaton design incredibly comfortable on my shoulder. Jean-Paul, the man behind the machine, even called it the "cat on the shoulder" design because it so comfortably wrapped around one's body. I usually stick a foam mousepad on my shoulder for longterm handheld work, but I find it's really comfortable.

 

The problem I have with most Betacam-style shoulder mount cameras is the handgrip on the lens. The placement makes me have to reach up just a little too high and tilt my wrist back because the handgrip is parallel to the lens. I wish they were designed to rotate so that I could crank my fingers forward about 45 degrees. As it is I find that my fingers tingle and fall asleep after prolonged periods of handholding. I much prefer the walnut handgrip of my Aaton with it's lower placement on the front rods and its orientable design. Vastly more comfortable.

 

The Aaton and the Arri SR are very well balanced, especially if you use a prime lens. With a zoom they can start to get front heavy, but that's when I like them with the 800' mags to help counterbalance. I don't like the Arri 800' mags that much but the Aaton ones wrap the shoulder even more and are a joy. I find that most video cameras are only properly balanced when I put on a really big battery brick like a Hytron 120, so it means that I need to carry a LOT of weight on my shoulder.

 

The failure of the Kinetta to fully balance comes with its incredibly small size. I long ago mentioned to Jeff the idea of a small rail system to extend the "mag" section of the camera back from the sensor and lens. He said it was easy enough to do and has the advantage of making the camera instantly balance-able when you switch lenses.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

There are all kinds of odd shoulder rigs, balancing outfits and battery mounts available for the home video market - I imagine you could probably stick a Kinetta on any of those and be OK.

 

Phil

[chrisM]

It doesn't hurt a Betacam to be built for shoulder work when it's on sticks

 

The Betacam has about the most unstable tripod plate mount of any camera I've used. It's just plain wobbly, and Sony haven't tried to improve it much. Philips have at least made a much more stable compatible mount.

 

I'd take an SR or an Aaton with a prime over a DigiBeta 790 with a monster wide angle zoom lens anyday, and I've done a lot of handheld on 790's!

[Rob van Gelder]

Discussions like this always recall the moment at Panavision when I pointed out that their extension viewfinder made it impossible to reach the lens. "But you have someone else to focus," they said. "No, I don't," I said. "You are an idiot," they said, or words to that effect.

 

Phil

Hi Phil,

How are you?

 

I know you are not an idiot but you can expect an answer like that from Arri as well:

"Sie sind verrückt!" when you would try the same with an Arricam and extension Eyepiece.

 

Certain things are for certain set-ups, not everything is universal, but I´m sure you know!

:P

 

Rob van Gelder

[Mark Allen]

Those in the know... (Mitch?)

 

When the kinetta goes beta - will Jeff be allowing some test raw scenes to be posted so we can check out the quality of the imagery?

 

Mark

[Jason Rodriguez]

When the kinetta goes beta - will Jeff be allowing some test raw scenes to be posted so we can check out the quality of the imagery?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I believe that the "beta" of the Kinetta will be available at some specific rental houses around the country starting sometime in November. Right now Jeff's still waiting on chips from Altasens who have delayed the shipment of the 3560 that the current version of the Kinetta's based on.

 

Based on this information, I'm not too sure the "beta" will be a "free" try-out; frankly IMHO that seems a little too good to be true since there's a lot of risk involved when you have such a wide beta release. Might be a cheaper rental rate, but I'm not sure about that, so don't quote me on that one. But either way, the Kinetta should be available for rental sometime around the November/December mark.

[Mitch Gross]

I think Jeff said Beta testing beginning sometime this fall or winter (depending on chip delivery) and available for purchase or rental sometime in 2005, like the first quarter. As soon as it gets out to Beta I'm sure that web images will become available, but I can assure you that a web image tells one extremely little about what the performance of such a camera is truly like.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Sure, but they can post DPX stills for download, which should be representative.

 

Nobody seems to do this, for some reason.

 

Phil

[Mark Allen]

If there are a handful of shots posted from objective cinematographers who are showing strengths and weakenesses of the camera - raw files onlline would be really helpful because it would give me a chance to really examine the results from my own personally subjective stance.

[Mark Allen]

I figured I would wait until mid November to ask this, but has the Kinetta made it into beta yet?

[sfinx]

Anybody more news on the Kinetta? Hope this camera is still going to come......

[Mark Allen]

I decided I'd wait another two months after my last post to put out a page for any more information regarding the camera... anyone have any news about it?

 

It's almost been 8 months since this thread was started. I'm just curious if they are running into problems - does it look like a 2006 release date?

 

Mitch Gross?

[Brad Grimmett]

You should check out CML-Kinetta. I'm sure there's more info there than there is here.

[Mark Allen]

You should check out CML-Kinetta.  I'm sure there's more info there than there is here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good tip, I tried to register there for like 15 minutes and it failed over 10 times, so I gave up.

[Brad Grimmett]

Good tip, I tried to register there for like 15 minutes and it failed over 10 times, so I gave up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it's pretty easy. Even I was able to do it, so it can't be THAT hard!

[Mark Allen]

Well, it's pretty easy.  Even I was able to do it, so it can't be THAT hard!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I had my web programming friend investigate and it turns out their mysql database was "hosed." However, seems to be working again today - bad timing I guess yesterday. So I've joined, thank you.

[Tim Tyler]

I had my web programming friend investigate and it turns out their mysql database was "hosed."  However, seems to be working again today - bad timing I guess yesterday.  So I've joined, thank you.

 

I emailed Jeff Kreines and sent him a link to this thread.

[Guest Jon Armstrong]

There is always a discussion about image quality and the invariable talk of 1080i 4.2.2 going to the local Multiplex. When you consider that the image is a poor quality and smaller than a 2K transfer. When you consider that most feature want a 4K transfer from a DI then HD 1080 even at 4.4.4 progressive is still a bit poor. Cameras such as the Kinetta will be the way to go since they have the ability to depart from this strange fascination with television standards.

For myself, I find the approach to post production the most peculiar. Whilst everyone strives for greater resolution, the post is relegated back to 2.35:1 on a DV stream (about 200 lines resolution) or, as an ancient Motion JPEG.

I was recently involved in the formulation of a new form of digital workprint. The project was a 35mm 2.35:1 production but the director was adamant about wanting a high quality means of viewing rushes and a cutting regime that was good. What we set up was a a 24 frame transfer at 1080i 4.2.2. Whilst we where forced to go through a tape intermediate, the intention was to go straight from telecine to HDD. Apart from a small problem (later solved) of a 4 frame corruption at 5:40:13 the system worked better than anyone expected.

Whilst doing this work we did some experiments on 4K digital image.

The material was transfered to storage as RAW data. The data was then layed into a 4K timeline.
Since this will not play in real time, the scenes were bladed the same as normal and the batch exported at DVCPRO HD 720 24p. Since this maintained the same timecode reference as the source material the source could then be edited and the EDL applied to the source. With grading we now have a DI ready for printing.

Digital aquisition will become the norm. In Australian terms, a 400' roll of stock and processing plus transfers etc is about $1000. HDD storage is cheap.

[Mike Brennan]

Anyone seem under the hood of the Kinetta?

You know circuit boards and stuff?

Does it exist other than as a block of plastic with a lens mount?

Anyone seen a live picture from it?

Eyewitness accounts only please.

 

Mike Brennan

[Phil Rhodes]

I've seen it produce colour bars; nothing more.

[Guest Jon Armstrong]

I've seen it produce colour bars; nothing more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its not the Kinetta that you should worry about, its the surfacing of a technology that will change the face of film making.

 

I am not a Luddite. I love film and think that the obsession with 2/3 CCD is a stupid line to take even if your footage is only going to TV (including HD).

 

As a still photographer, I turned my back on digital swearing that Mr Fuji and Mr Kodak would keep me from digital for the rest of my working life. I was wrong big time.

 

Even if the Kinetta is an Urban Myth, there will soon be others. The technology is here and the economics make sense.

[Mike Brennan]

I've seen it produce colour bars; nothing more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes me too... or it could have been a kodachrome slide projected in the viewfinder:)

 

Mike Brennan

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

The thing that really concerns me about it is the storage system; those little 2" hard disks don't have the world's greatest transfer rate, and I'm not sure the maths works out.

 

I kind of presume it does, as I doubt they're just lying about it, but it's a pretty mean feat.

 

Phil

[Michael Most]

Hi,

 

The thing that really concerns me about it is the storage system; those little 2" hard disks don't have the world's greatest transfer rate, and I'm not sure the maths works out.

 

I kind of presume it does, as I doubt they're just lying about it, but it's a pretty mean feat.

 

When you put 14 of them together in a RAID configuration, as Jeff has done, you get a very robust transfer rate. Add in the fact that it's recording Raw files, which are only about 3MB per frame at 1920x1080, and it works out just fine.

[Michael Most]

Its not the Kinetta that you should worry about, its the surfacing of a technology that will change the face of film making.

 

For personal and do-it-yourself projects that can't afford anything else, perhaps. Not necessarily for the professional end of the industry.