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Can someone please shine a light on some recent issues I had with a shoot on an Eclair ACL


jack layfield

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Hey there i was wondering if someone could help with some recent issue I had on my first shoot with my Eclair ACL. 

I had bought the camera and just got it back after having the mount changed as there was issues with it from the previous owner. Everything seemed to run fine, ran some practise film through and it did what it was suppose to.

I had ran a test clip on a 200ft mag and the footage came back with some of it quite out of focus and some totally fine, this was i believe due to the lens (Canon-16 Macro ZoomC10x12 12-120mm) and when at its widest (10mm) it was soft and zoomed in (120mm) everything was sharp. 

So I went ahead with the shoot but used a friends canon 8-64 T2.4 as thought this could've been the issue...

First with the 200ft mag it all came back soft, the zoomed in stuff shows a bit more detail but not sharp at all and i could see in the viewfinder that it was in focus.

Then the 400ft Mag the first fist minute was soft and then it just went completely blurry you can hardly make out whats going on in the footage what so ever. 

I have attached the images and i would really appreciate if some could look and let me know what they think may of happened. Obviously quite devastated that lost this footage an also spent a fair bit on the camera so far so not the results i wanted.

200ft https://imgur.com/mmcRxOU

200ft https://imgur.com/pAcOeJJ

400ft https://imgur.com/cy5xEje

400ft https://imgur.com/0CkWe5m

Thanks for any insights. 

Edited by jack layfield
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Without watching the videos, to me it sounds like that the lens mount has a mounting problem and the weight of the lens shifts the ffd during the shoot, or it could be a ground glass /mirror problem. Pressure plate issue or mag mounting issue can do that as wellbut pressure plate would make the problem more inconsistent.

So I believe the weight of the lens causes something to go out of tolerance slowly during the shoot. Something may be aged or loose, I would send it back to service to find out the exact issue

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Hi Jack!

Which ACL version do you have? Does it have the multispeed motor? Also, what lens mount does it have? The original TS-mount? Or has it been replaced with PL? Did you use some lens adapter? Did you focus using the scale on the lenses or just by eye?

Was the ground glass adjusted after the work on the mount - you'd use a prime lens that definitely works, focus it to infinity and then there is a procedure for adjusting the ground glass - can be easily done by the camera user.

Those 400ft mag stills however look like an issue with film transport, not lens. How did the camera sound during the shoot?

 

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6 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

Without watching the videos, to me it sounds like that the lens mount has a mounting problem and the weight of the lens shifts the ffd during the shoot, or it could be a ground glass /mirror problem. Pressure plate issue or mag mounting issue can do that as wellbut pressure plate would make the problem more inconsistent.

So I believe the weight of the lens causes something to go out of tolerance slowly during the shoot. Something may be aged or loose, I would send it back to service to find out the exact issue

Okay thanks for this the company who did the work assured me the mount would take that lens with an adapter so i can get back in touch with them.

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4 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

Hi Jack!

Which ACL version do you have? Does it have the multispeed motor? Also, what lens mount does it have? The original TS-mount? Or has it been replaced with PL? Did you use some lens adapter? Did you focus using the scale on the lenses or just by eye?

Was the ground glass adjusted after the work on the mount - you'd use a prime lens that definitely works, focus it to infinity and then there is a procedure for adjusting the ground glass - can be easily done by the camera user.

Those 400ft mag stills however look like an issue with film transport, not lens. How did the camera sound during the shoot?

 

Hey Heikko thanks for getting back to me

So I have the Eclair ACL 2 with the heavy speed motor, I have a c-mount and used a c-mount to PL adapter. i focused mainly by eye but it was all shoot on sticks so made sure i was always roughly within the right distance. 

I didn't do anything with the ground glass and never spoke with the engineer who replaced the mount about it. 

I had never used the 400ft mags so the sound i believe was okay, didn't hear anything out of the ordinary though. One thing i did find funny was the loading of the film with the single perf as it didn't go round the bottom but more across (not sure if you understand but added a screen shoot and i did it the same way as the dotted line)

Also another strange thing is it worked for a few shots of my test clip also attached. 

Loading the mag https://imgur.com/dBPyUgq

200ft Clip Test https://imgur.com/wH3Bhcu

200ft Clip Test https://imgur.com/LiW52Ur

 

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The 200ft mag footage is just out of focus, the 400 ft mag looks like the loop may have slipped and the film is moving during exposure, as Heikki said.

So you have a couple of issues there, although it’s possible the 400 ft problem was just a loading error/outsized loop.

Was it an actual camera engineer who replaced your mount? If so they should have checked things like the flange depth and ground glass focus after working on your camera. 

If you were eye focussing, did you make sure to have the eyepiece set for your eye, so that the ground glass crosshair was in focus? If that was OK, but your footage doesn’t match what you saw in the viewfinder, then the ground glass is not at the same depth as the film gate. This is usually a factory setting, and rarely goes out unless a camera has been disassembled and incorrectly re-assembled, or the mirror has been displaced somehow.

When a properly calibrated zoom goes out of focus as you zoom out, it means the camera flange depth is out, which is quite possible if the new mount wasn’t checked for correct flange depth. You have a lot of room for flange depth error with a 120mm focal length, which is why it seemed ok on your first test at the long end of the 12-120, but the wider you go the more critical flange depth becomes. It only needs to be less than a tenth of a mm out of tolerance to make images quite soft at the wide end.

To avoid these sorts of issues, it’s really important to have a second-hand camera like this (and ideally the lenses and adapters too) checked by an experienced camera tech after purchase. They can easily measure the important settings and check how the transport is working and whether you might have any problems before you waste money on film and processing. You can’t just assume a vintage camera will work flawlessly, even if a seller says so. 
 

17 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

Was the ground glass adjusted after the work on the mount - you'd use a prime lens that definitely works, focus it to infinity and then there is a procedure for adjusting the ground glass - can be easily done by the camera user.

But how do you know the lens is perfectly calibrated? A 50mm could be 0.03mm out of tolerance in its back-focus but will still line up very close to the infinity mark, even assuming the camera you’ve checked it on is perfectly calibrated. If you use a wider lens with less tolerance for flange depth error it becomes hard to judge exact infinity focus through the viewfinder. Also, in order to make sure a zoom holds focus through its range you need to make sure the flange depth is correct, seperate to the ground glass focus, which really needs a depth gauge to measure. These settings all need to be roughly within 0.01mm of tolerance.

I think the easiest and safest way to set up extremely fine settings like this on a film camera is to give it to a tech with the right tools - depth gauge, calibrated test lens and collimator. It will take about 15minutes to check. Plus a tech should pick up any other issues with the kit after a quick appraisal.

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Yes, I agree that the best option is to have a tech look at it. Too many variables.

Generally speaking I wouldn't use PL mount lenses with a C-mount adapter. Get a TS to PL adapter. C-mount really is not suitable for heavier lenses. TS-mount is the outer ring around C-mount - I'm pretty sure the company meant using it for PL lenses.

What mount does your 12-120mm have?

 

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18 hours ago, jack layfield said:

One thing i did find funny was the loading of the film with the single perf as it didn't go round the bottom but more across (not sure if you understand but added a screen shoot and i did it the same way as the dotted line)

That thread path with the dotted line is correct for B wind film, emulsion in. Someone can check me, it's been a while. The solid line path would have to be an emulsion out roll, which I never remember seeing, or ever spooling off. So not sure how to explain that. Maybe this can arise when experimenting with some lab stocks. A wild guess.

To my fingers the feed spindle is happy spinning either way, so that aspect is no problem.

Re the problems generally...Agreeing what others have said. My feeling is that too much is put at risk... teaching yourself about film (there's a lot to learn),  with an unfamiliar camera, of uncertain condition. My positive advice is that for your next project you invite a sympathetic operator or AC who has some gear and learn from them. Also, you can immediately find any 16mm shoots that are happening, talk to the people, offer to help, find a way to be near the camera, learn to load.

 

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On 6/26/2021 at 6:55 AM, Dom Jaeger said:

The 200ft mag footage is just out of focus, the 400 ft mag looks like the loop may have slipped and the film is moving during exposure, as Heikki said.

So you have a couple of issues there, although it’s possible the 400 ft problem was just a loading error/outsized loop.

Was it an actual camera engineer who replaced your mount? If so they should have checked things like the flange depth and ground glass focus after working on your camera. 

If you were eye focussing, did you make sure to have the eyepiece set for your eye, so that the ground glass crosshair was in focus? If that was OK, but your footage doesn’t match what you saw in the viewfinder, then the ground glass is not at the same depth as the film gate. This is usually a factory setting, and rarely goes out unless a camera has been disassembled and incorrectly re-assembled, or the mirror has been displaced somehow.

When a properly calibrated zoom goes out of focus as you zoom out, it means the camera flange depth is out, which is quite possible if the new mount wasn’t checked for correct flange depth. You have a lot of room for flange depth error with a 120mm focal length, which is why it seemed ok on your first test at the long end of the 12-120, but the wider you go the more critical flange depth becomes. It only needs to be less than a tenth of a mm out of tolerance to make images quite soft at the wide end.

To avoid these sorts of issues, it’s really important to have a second-hand camera like this (and ideally the lenses and adapters too) checked by an experienced camera tech after purchase. They can easily measure the important settings and check how the transport is working and whether you might have any problems before you waste money on film and processing. You can’t just assume a vintage camera will work flawlessly, even if a seller says so. 
 

But how do you know the lens is perfectly calibrated? A 50mm could be 0.03mm out of tolerance in its back-focus but will still line up very close to the infinity mark, even assuming the camera you’ve checked it on is perfectly calibrated. If you use a wider lens with less tolerance for flange depth error it becomes hard to judge exact infinity focus through the viewfinder. Also, in order to make sure a zoom holds focus through its range you need to make sure the flange depth is correct, seperate to the ground glass focus, which really needs a depth gauge to measure. These settings all need to be roughly within 0.01mm of tolerance.

I think the easiest and safest way to set up extremely fine settings like this on a film camera is to give it to a tech with the right tools - depth gauge, calibrated test lens and collimator. It will take about 15minutes to check. Plus a tech should pick up any other issues with the kit after a quick appraisal.

Hey Dom thanks for your response this is all real helpful. I will go back to the engineer who replaced the mount and ask these about some of these points.

I believe the engineer is qualified for this kind of thing but i will def find out if he knows more about what happened. 

Thanks a lot 

Jack 

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  • 7 months later...
On 6/26/2021 at 8:55 AM, Dom Jaeger said:

But how do you know the lens is perfectly calibrated? A 50mm could be 0.03mm out of tolerance in its back-focus but will still line up very close to the infinity mark, even assuming the camera you’ve checked it on is perfectly calibrated. If you use a wider lens with less tolerance for flange depth error it becomes hard to judge exact infinity focus through the viewfinder. Also, in order to make sure a zoom holds focus through its range you need to make sure the flange depth is correct, seperate to the ground glass focus, which really needs a depth gauge to measure. These settings all need to be roughly within 0.01mm of tolerance.

Just to get back to this: back in 2016 I received my ACL back from Bernie. He had laser brightened my ground glass and did some general servicing on the camera. When I got it back, I realized the viewfinder was blurry. Bernie had forgotten to calibrate the ground glass, so he then instructed me how to do it and told to use the infinity. I did that, and was happy.

Fast forward to 2022, and I happen to do some lens tests and find out that in fact, my viewfinder has been showing wrong image all along. Whoops! Suddenly all those mis-focused wide open shot shots got their explanation. Suddenly I also found out why the Arriflex Standard mount lenses I bought in 2020 didn't seem to focus correctly (they just would seem to get more in focus the closer I focused them to infinity).

Well, using the knowledge that those lenses were working correctly, I set my camera one meter away from wall. I put Siemens star there, opened the lens wide open (t2.2, so not that wide but...) and then adjusted the ground glass. I had to take it to the extreme in order to show sharp image when those lenses were focused at one meter.

But ta-da! Now my Arri-S lenses work as intended. The setting might not be 100% accurate, but it is definitely much more accurate than it was before.

Lesson to be learned? If your camera tech lives thousands of kilometers away from you and has just returned the camera to you and you have to set the ground glass, do not use infinity of a SLR lens in a C-mount adapter. You'll end up wondering how you could have missed the focus every time you used t1.3 and focused by eye....

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