First time shooting on 35mm. - Tips? Things to remember?

[Eirik Heim]

Hi,

Will be shooting my first short film on 35mm the upcoming week. I feel comfortable about it, but still just wanted to make a post to see if there are something I have forgot to think about. Tips and tricks etc.

I live in Northern Norway, and we rearly shoot analog, except when I go out to shoot some stills. Looking forward to this one!

I have my own Arri Alexa Mini package with a WCU 4 and cforce motors including a RF motor. We will be renting the Arricam LT for this shoot and use the RF that will get power from the camera. It has a HD video assist, and as of my understanding, it is good enough to judge critical focus? It will be one int location except three shots. Small lighting packages (almost nothing around here). Will be shooting everythinn og Kodak Vision 3 500T and use a 85 filter for the three shots outside. Thinking of metering at ISO 400 for the interior to overexpose a litle bit, and 320/250 when using the 85 filter outside. Should I overexpose more? Something special to keep in mind? Meter the talents with the incident meter and check the lighting ratio and keep it concistent. Check the frame with a bit of spot metering to keep it inside the dynamic range. 

Any tips and tricks?

Thinking of bringing a litle mirrorless camera and look trough it sometimes to check settings.

 

[Tyler Purcell]

Oh sounds like fun! 

I think a lot of people "overthink" their first shoot on film. They don't trust themselves enough, so they make silly mistakes they'd never make with digital. Not because they're unable, but because they're over thinking things too much. 

One of the biggest mistakes I constantly see is focus. You can't tell focus outside of the viewfinder and it can be tricky to tell when you're stopped down and and/or the diopter isn't setup right for your eye. You need to measure every shot, the moment you trust yourself, is the moment you won't get the shot. Don't trust yourself, trust the tape measure. The viewfinder is a backup and the monitor is only good for framing. Of course, if you're stopped all the way down, this is less of a problem, but many people try to keep their lenses more open to get that shallow depth of field look. So measure twice, shoot once. 

In terms of your metering/exposure questions with 500T, I mean you can't shot 500T outside in daylight without heavy filtering. An 85 filter is not even a stop, you need A LOT of ND filtering. I have an 1.5ND that I use for 250D so I can get my stop in the F8 range. With 500T a 1.5ND and 85 filter should be sufficient for daylight color balance. I will also state for the record, 85 filters will make the image a bit warmer than 250D's color balance. I generally don't run 85's because in the scan you can fix it pretty easily. It actually comes out nice if you're ok with a slightly cooler image, and I mean SLIGHTLY. 5219 (500T) has 9 stops of highlight dynamic range... so yea, you don't have to worry about it lol ?

You'll need to be 8 stops under to have something disappear from frame. So your normal key v fill, ratio can be in the 4 stop range and it'll still be fine. I'm always shocked/surprised when I come back with my film and even in super dark situations, I still have a decent image. So if you're close on exposure, you're fine. 

Hope that helps! 

[David Mullen ASC]

Shoot a grey card or grey scale in flat light of a known color temperature, something that needs no creative interpretation to set the exposure nor to color-correct the frame.   If something doesn't look right later, it would be your only neutral reference. Tracking down where something went wrong is the one issue with film that can drive you nuts because of the number of steps involved.

[Tyler Purcell]

2 hours ago, David Mullen ASC said:

Shoot a grey card or grey scale in flat light of a known color temperature, something that needs no creative interpretation to set the exposure nor to color-correct the frame.   If something doesn't look right later, it would be your only neutral reference. Tracking down where something went wrong is the one issue with film that can drive you nuts because of the number of steps involved.

I 2nd this. I'm so use to scanning my own material, I forget about this all the time. 

Good tip! 

[Eirik Heim]

Thanks for the tips. 

I have an experienced 1st AC who has shot film many times before. Which is nice. I will stay between 2,8 - 4 int and 4 - 5,6 ext. Going to use my own Cooke Panchro I/classics. 
 

I will of course also use NDs as well. Just mentioning the 85 filter because of the three shots I have planned in daylight. Instead of buying a roll of daylight balanced film for thoose. 
 

Agree with metering at 400 when shooting int? Will be using tungsten fixtures. 

[Tyler Purcell]

46 minutes ago, Eirik Heim said:

Agree with metering at 400 when shooting int? Will be using tungsten fixtures. 

Sure! Helps bring up the darker areas. 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I have never shot 35mm. I wonder, though, if it's worth having a set of pre-loaded magazines, ready to go? Is that normal practise?

I also wonder if it's better to shoot 50D outdoors. I suppose you'd have different looks between outdoors and indoors, but IMHO that actually is a good idea. I know some DPs use one stock for the whole production, and I respect that, too. 

If you put NDs in front of the lens, the viewfinder will be very dark. If you can, maybe put the NDs in front of the gate instead. If the camera can support that.

[Tyler Purcell]

19 hours ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

I have never shot 35mm. I wonder, though, if it's worth having a set of pre-loaded magazines, ready to go? Is that normal practise?

Yes, we always pre-load the night before a shoot. I do the same with any film cameras unless it's a daylight spool or super 8 camera. I honestly hate loading the day of the shoot, such a pain. 

19 hours ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

I also wonder if it's better to shoot 50D outdoors. I suppose you'd have different looks between outdoors and indoors, but IMHO that actually is a good idea. I know some DPs use one stock for the whole production, and I respect that, too. 

Depends on what you're doing. I always suggest not shooting 500T in daylight, it's never going to look great. Even with 250D, it can be pretty noisy for exterior. The best stock for daylight is 50D of course. A lot of people will use the same stock across the board, but it's sometimes a 200T, which is actually a great daylight and indoor stock. It's not difficult to light for 200T and with an 85 filter and .9 ND, you've got a pretty decent range to work with exterior as well. 

19 hours ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

If you put NDs in front of the lens, the viewfinder will be very dark. If you can, maybe put the NDs in front of the gate instead. If the camera can support that.

Unfortunately, with most commercial film cameras you don't have a choice. ND filters go in front of the lens. The reason is because the spinning mirror shutter, has to be very close to the film plane. The gaps/distances are simply too tight to have a workable slide system (I know it's been done before). Also, it's a great place for dust to build up in your camera, so any system that does exist, would be useless. The few cameras that have this system, get away with it because they can put the filter between the lens and the shutter, like the Bolex. I personally would love to see a variable ND system  between the lens and the shutter itself. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Tyler Purcell

[Aapo Lettinen]

12 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Yes, we always pre-load the night before a shoot. I do the same with any film cameras unless it's a daylight spool or super 8 camera. I honestly hate loading the day of the shoot, such a pain. 

Depends on what you're doing. I always suggest not shooting 500T in daylight, it's never going to look great. Even with 250D, it can be pretty noisy for exterior. The best stock for daylight is 50D of course. A lot of people will use the same stock across the board, but it's sometimes a 200T, which is actually a great daylight and indoor stock. It's not difficult to light for 200T and with an 85 filter and .9 ND, you've got a pretty decent range to work with exterior as well. 

Unfortunately, with real film cameras, you don't have a choice. ND filters always go in front of the lens. The reason is because the spinning mirror shutter, has to be very close to the film plane. The gaps/distances are simply too tight to have a slide system. Also, it's a great place for dust to build up in your camera. So Bolex's and consumer grade cameras are the only ones which can do this sadly. A camera with a variable ND would be super cool. 

Some cameras DO have in-gate gel filter possibility. I remember the Arricam ST and LT having it and maybe the 435 too. 

If I remember correctly, the CP16R has some kind of filter possibility in the gate too if one is handy enough

[Aapo Lettinen]

the Cameflex has some kind of slot too though I don't remember if it was for in-gate gels or behind the lens gels

[Aapo Lettinen]

it is true that in-gate filter gels easily show dust which can go undetected on the set because it does not show in the viewfinder. additionally keeping the filter perfectly flat to avoid distortions needs care. But in-gate ND filtering is definitely possible with 35mm movie cameras, it is just rare because people are afraid of the dust buildup on the filter

[Tyler Purcell]

18 minutes ago, aapo lettinen said:

Some cameras DO have in-gate gel filter possibility. I remember the Arricam ST and LT having it and maybe the 435 too. 

If I remember correctly, the CP16R has some kind of filter possibility in the gate too if one is handy enough

I've physically owned those cameras. Nobody has every mentioned any of those things. 

[Tyler Purcell]

15 minutes ago, aapo lettinen said:

But in-gate ND filtering is definitely possible with 35mm movie cameras, it is just rare because people are afraid of the dust buildup on the filter

I mean anything is possible, but you'd have to use glass filters on commercial cameras and the amount of static electricity build up in that area is insane. That piece of glass would literally be covered in debris. Also, film does shed... those bits would get right on the filter. You could put a filter system in the gap between the back of the lens and the mirror shutter, but that defeats the purpose. 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I just had an idea! Make the open section of the mirror shutter an ND. Of course you'd have to go through the trouble of swapping them out, but still, it does solve a problem.

[Dom Jaeger]

 

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Unfortunately, with real film cameras, you don't have a choice. ND filters always go in front of the lens. The reason is because the spinning mirror shutter, has to be very close to the film plane. The gaps/distances are simply too tight to have a slide system. Also, it's a great place for dust to build up in your camera. So Bolex's and consumer grade cameras are the only ones which can do this sadly. 

This is not correct.

Arricams have the facility to put gelatin filters in the format mask:

 

Panaflexes also have a filter slot to put gelatin filters between the mirror and the gate:

Here's a box of Panaflex gel filters:

Many other film cameras had provision for filters in the gate - 435s, Mitchells, CP-16s, etc.

There are also plenty of lenses which allow for a rear filter to be screwed in, or have a filter slot at the back of the lens. Off the top of my head I can list the Kinoptik 9.8mm, various Cooke zooms and Canon telephotos, many Panavision lenses.. 

[David Mullen ASC]

No one I know uses the slot in the Arricam for gels, just hard mattes — it’s too close to the film for dust and dirt on the gel to not come into focus. With the Panavision cameras there is a bit more room to get the gel slot further from the film.

[Tyler Purcell]

Very strange, we have complete kits with every accessory Arri made but no filters. That area is known as a masking area not filter. Anyway it wouldn’t work for the obvious reasons above. 

How does the panavision system work? I see a slot way below the aperture plate. 
 

I’ve owned a few CP16s, never seen any slot to insert gels. 

[David Sekanina]

check your format mask box Tyler - I was surprised myself to find this

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Panavision uses a deeper flange depth than ARRI so there is room for a gel filter slot further away from the gate.

[David Mullen ASC]

I really don’t recommend using that gate slot in an ARRI for gels…

[Dom Jaeger]

20 minutes ago, David Mullen ASC said:

I really don’t recommend using that gate slot in an ARRI for gels…

Yes the Arricam manual itself recommends only using the gate filter slot as a last resort, if you couldn’t use a matte box or any other filter options for some reason.

[Dom Jaeger]

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

How does the panavision system work? I see a slot way below the aperture plate. 

As pictured, the filter holder is curved to reach up to the gate aperture.

[Tyler Purcell]

3 hours ago, David Sekanina said:

check your format mask box Tyler - I was surprised myself to find this

OOOOOOO It's a "build your own filter" situation. Got ya. Now I understand. 

I can't find the hard matte box, it's around here somewhere. I'll see if it's in there, I bet you're right. 

[Dom Jaeger]

On 7/23/2021 at 10:44 PM, Eirik Heim said:

We will be renting the Arricam LT for this shoot and use the RF that will get power from the camera. It has a HD video assist, and as of my understanding, it is good enough to judge critical focus? It will be one int location except three shots. Small lighting packages (almost nothing around here). Will be shooting everythinn og Kodak Vision 3 500T and use a 85 filter for the three shots outside. Thinking of metering at ISO 400 for the interior to overexpose a litle bit, and 320/250 when using the 85 filter outside. Should I overexpose more? Something special to keep in mind? Meter the talents with the incident meter and check the lighting ratio and keep it concistent. Check the frame with a bit of spot metering to keep it inside the dynamic range. 

Any tips and tricks?

Thinking of bringing a litle mirrorless camera and look trough it sometimes to check settings.

One thing I would add would be to do a thorough prep at the rental house and check that your lenses are properly collimated. In other words, the focus marks are accurate and reliable. As mentioned, you shouldn't rely on the video assist for focus, you should tape out whenever you can, but that relies on the lens focus marks being accurate. If you do this at the rental house where you rent the LT, you can ask them to check any lenses that might seem a little out in the viewfinder. Most rental houses that rent out film cameras should have the facility to check lens collimation. If you have an experienced 1st AC they should be on top of this though.

[Eirik Heim]

Thanks for all the tips! 
 

Shot the short now and it was a really good experience! The Director was also satisfied. Think I am good exposure and focus wise, and happy with the framing. 
 

I might have made one mistake though. We had some practicals that was one the location. 4 lamps on the wall, not Led. I looked trough my viewfinder on my mirror less camera and an Arri Alexa mini  and could observe not flickering with the same settings. With all the lights on the set powered on. We had 2 x 1Ks on the outside of the window,  2 x 800W on the other side lighting from another room, two other lights in the front out to the left just to lift the shadows a bit. 
 

But afterwards, when I looked through the same cameras, with only the practicals lit, there was slow movering flickering. Hard to notice though. Do I have a problem or did the artificial lights overpower the practicals and no flickering?

I shot at 24 fps and 180 degrees, and yes I should have had 172,8/ 1/50th shutter. But I could not see any flicker chechinkg the lights with everything on…