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Can DS8 (double super 8) be projected on a Super 8 projector?


Jacek Kropinski

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Can DS8 (double super ? be projected on a regular Super 8 projector? I’ve tried several different projectors and viewers and the frame sits half way down the picture beyond all possibility of adjustment. It seems the frame size is different to Super 8. 
If it is indeed different how does one adapt a Super 8 to frame DS8 (double super 8)? I’ve searched in vain for any info on DS8 projectors. 

Any information or advice would be very welcome. 

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Double Super 8mm is exactly the same as Super 8mm once it has been slit in two; it should play back fine on a typical Super 8mm projector after being slit .

Are you sure you aren't trying to project Double Regular 8mm film that has been slit? 

If the sprocket hole is the same size as a 16mm, you have Standard Regular 8mm or Slit Double Regular 8mm (same thing)...

Edited by Frank Wylie
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2 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

Double Super 8mm is exactly the same as Super 8mm once it has been slit in two; it should play back fine on a typical Super 8mm projector after being slit .

Are you sure you aren't trying to project Double Regular 8mm film that has been slit? 

If the sprocket hole is the same size as a 16mm, you have Standard Regular 8mm or Slit Double Regular 8mm (same thing)...

Thank you Frank but yes it is definitely DS8 Super 8 and definitely does not play  correctly on  various Super 8 equipment I have tried to view it with . The cinematographer who shot it in the 1971 used the then newly released 8mm Canon Scoopic or Zoom DS8 as it was marketed as - an 8mm version of the renowned Canon 16mm Scoopic. https://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/cine276.html?fbclid=IwAR0vOeNJ3johdV_8kg0gIcSxMb11qEQn2krBs0f5O2p04idV_OtbKcj3UDI

This is incredibly rare, important and valuable archival footage for a documentary I am making and I can get it scanned no problem but I have been given 26 200 foot rolls he recently discovered in storage, so need to see what's on them before I commit such a large sum to scan footage which may be useless to my film. The scanning house told me it won't play back correctly on any Super 8mm equipment but may play correctly on 16mm equipment with half the screen being blank of course. It worries me though that one side of the film would have no support when going through the gate.

The film is definitely 18mm perf but the picture on Super 8 equipment is split in 2 with the bottom half of the image on top and the top half of the image below. I'm looking for a way to somehow adapt one of the projectors or viewers I have to accommodate this film so I can judge what I want scanned..

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3 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

If the sprocket hole is the same size as a 16mm, you have Standard Regular 8mm or Slit Double Regular 8mm (same thing)...

One curious thing Frank, when I was rewinding the film in a Bolex projector (Bolex Paillard 18-5L Super 8mm) by reversing the camera, it played fine when I removed the frame from the gate, but forwards it had the split and very jittery frame. Any thoughts? (I didn't want to risk damaging the film by playing it through a homemade gate so only ran a couple of feet of previously scanned footage).

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I’m a bit confused, is the film 8mm wide or 16mm wide? If it’s 8mm wide how do you know it was Double Super 8? Just from the owner’s description?

As Frank described, Double Super 8 is a camera format, basically the same idea as Double 8, using 16mm film with double the perforations (though different size perfs for Super 8). You expose it twice in the camera, once on each half. Then after processing the film gets slit lengthways to produce normal Super 8 film (half as wide). It should then be exactly the same as normal Super 8 film, and can be used in a projector.

If the frame alignment is off, you should be able to adjust that within the projector. My 18-5 projector allows for considerable re-positioning of the frame. 
If the film is precious however, I would suggest viewing it on a good quality viewer/editor rather than a projector. They are less likely to damage the film (even though Bolex 18-5 projectors are usually very gentle on film).

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sounds confusing. 

Do you mean that you have ds8 film which is developed but has not been slit yet and it has the two 8mm films together? There is no projector for such a film but if you need to slit a developed film to separate the two 8 films there is a Lomo slitting tool available which can do that. Test first with scrap film to ensure that the tool is working correctly.

I think it would be useful if you can post a picture of the actual film here so that we can see what is going on

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Regular 8 and super8 have very different perforation size and shape so we can tell immediately which one it is by looking at a picture which shows the full perforations.

About the slitting. If the film is very precious, it should be possible to scan it without slitting to reduce the risk of mechanical damage and to be able to scan two streams at the same time to save costs. Depends on the scanner how it would work. As Dom said the projector has more complicated film path than a simple viewer so if the goal is to protect the film at any cost then it would be wise to limit the handling of it to a minimum before scanning and to avoid projecting it

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I do not know of any safe way to preview unslit Double Super 8mm film.

Paying someone to slit it and put it on spools (maybe even clean it ultrasonically) so you can use a typical Super 8mm editor/viewer is probably the least costly option, but do get a decent viewer like a Goko or an Elmo and CLEAN and TEST it before you run your film through the thing!

Don't get a crappy Baia or other plastic monstrosity;  you will regret it!

Edited by Frank Wylie
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2 hours ago, Jacek Kropinski said:

One curious thing Frank, when I was rewinding the film in a Bolex projector (Bolex Paillard 18-5L Super 8mm) by reversing the camera, it played fine when I removed the frame from the gate, but forwards it had the split and very jittery frame. Any thoughts? (I didn't want to risk damaging the film by playing it through a homemade gate so only ran a couple of feet of previously scanned footage).

Thank you Frank but the film is slit and on Super 8 200ft. reels. It simply does not play on Super 8 equipment.

The same equipment does play normal super 8 perfectly. I called Pro8mm here in LA who are DS8 experts and behind the push to revive it. They told me this morning it will not play on regular 8 equipment. 

And yes, my biggest concern is to not damage the film in any way which is why I am being so cautious.

I appreciate your advice.

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1 hour ago, Dom Jaeger said:

I’m a bit confused, is the film 8mm wide or 16mm wide? If it’s 8mm wide how do you know it was Double Super 8? Just from the owner’s description?

As Frank described, Double Super 8 is a camera format, basically the same idea as Double 8, using 16mm film with double the perforations (though different size perfs for Super 8). You expose it twice in the camera, once on each half.

Thank you Dom. 

The film is slit and on Super 8 200ft. reels. It simply does not play on Super 8 equipment.

The same equipment does play normal super 8 perfectly. I called Pro8mm here in LA who are DS8 experts and behind the push to revive it. They told me this morning it will not play on regular 8 equipment. 

And yes, my biggest concern is to not damage the film in any way which is why I am being so cautious.

I appreciate your advice.

1 hour ago, aapo lettinen said:

Do you mean that you have ds8 film which is developed but has not been slit yet and it has the two 8mm films together? There is no projector for such a film

Thank you Aapo. 

The film is slit and on Super 8 200ft. reels. It simply does not play on Super 8 equipment yet the same equipment does play normal super 8 perfectly.

I called Pro8mm here in LA who are DS8 experts and behind the push to revive it. They told me this morning it will not play on regular 8 equipment. They told me it can be played on a 16 mm equipment but as it is split only half the frame would be filled. 

That sounded weird to me because one half of the film would not be supported through the gate which is why I came to ask the experts here.

And yes, my biggest concern is to not damage the film in any way which is why I am being so cautious.

I appreciate your advice. Thank you.

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19 minutes ago, Jacek Kropinski said:

The film is slit and on Super 8 200ft. reels. It simply does not play on Super 8 equipment yet the same equipment does play normal super 8 perfectly.

I called Pro8mm here in LA who are DS8 experts and behind the push to revive it. They told me this morning it will not play on regular 8 equipment. They told me it can be played on a 16 mm equipment but as it is split only half the frame would be filled. 

It sounds like Pro8mm think the film is unslit. Otherwise their advice doesn’t make sense. When slit, double Super 8 should be exactly like normal Super 8. That’s the whole point, otherwise how do people view their film? There are no Double Super 8 projectors, as it is (was?) only a camera format. 
 

You describe the frame being offset, with the bottom half on top and the top half on the bottom. That just means the projector (or editor/viewer) needs the frame position adjusted. All projectors have this facility. In a Bolex 18-5 it’s here:

86E910AE-7712-448F-8D94-5A6F0C83E60E.jpeg.65477b7e66d29fcb497118d7ca382f92.jpeg

 

 

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1 minute ago, Dom Jaeger said:

You describe the frame being offset, with the bottom half on top and the top half on the bottom.

Thanks Dom. I was a surprised as you are and asked the associate to double check and he confirmed it. As he was asking someone else for advice I think you may be correct that my question was misinterpreted in the chain.

However, the DS8 footage is offset as you say and beyond all frame adjustment of the equipment I am using. Which is why I posted. And yet the equipment plays regular Super 8 no problem A real conundrum.

 

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1 minute ago, Jacek Kropinski said:

Thanks Dom. I was a surprised as you are and asked the associate to double check and he confirmed it. As he was asking someone else for advice I think you may be correct that my question was misinterpreted in the chain.

However, the DS8 footage is offset as you say and beyond all frame adjustment of the equipment I am using. Which is why I posted. And yet the equipment plays regular Super 8 no problem A real conundrum.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Dom Jaeger said:

All projectors have this facility. In a Bolex 18-5 it’s here

One of the projectors I tried was Bolex 18-5 - I bought last weekend. I researched an and saw how gentle it is on film so I did that right at least ?

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I think there may be some misunderstanding here about the actual format of your film and projector. Bolex made 18-5 projectors for both Super 8 and Standard 8. You need to make sure your film and the projector are both Super 8.

If you post pictures it may help.

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3 minutes ago, Dom Jaeger said:

I think there may be some misunderstanding here about the actual format of your film and projector. Bolex made 18-5 projectors for both Super 8 and Standard 8. You need to make sure your film and the projector are both Super 8.

If you post pictures it may help.

Dom I have been in the business for 40 years - I know super 8 film but hadn't heard of DS8 until last week when I received these rolls.

Here is the projector and a snap of the film: 

Bolex 1.jpg

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Super-8 that is, the image lies just next to the perforation hole.

Regular-8 has the frame line on the middle of the perforation hole, like 16 mm. It’s also called the interimage.

DO NOT USE dual format projectors. NOT GOOD. They can work but most don’t do the job right for both film sizes. For Super-8 and Single-8 films (identical geometry) use a pure 8-S projector. Double-Super 8 is a camera format, the film being 16 mm wide. After processing and slitting it’s called Super-8. For standard 8 or normal 8 or regular 8, everything the same, use a pure 8-R projector or viewer. Regular 8 derives from Double Eight since 1932. That’s the original double-width-half-length system.

 

Your projector may run the films correctly, if

  • the stock is not too badly shrunken,
  • laced correctly,
  • in order.

The latter means that the film path is meticulously clean, not scratched or worse still, wearing burrs. The advance claw must run on the center line of the perforation holes and not be damaged (smooth plane underside). The sprocket drums must be intact and the film guidance around them correctly seated. The film side guide in the gate needs to function properly, else image steadiness is nil.

I will take care of your equipment, in case nobody does.

 

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4 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

You have Double Regular 8mm.

Thank you Frank. Double Regular 8? But the sprocket holes are vertical and in the middle of the frame. From my research Double 8 is 16mm film with regular 8mm perforations on both sides, exposed by flipping over and then splitting after processing.

If this is indeed Double 8 would that then explain why it's not plying on a regular 8 equipment?

8mm_and_super8_and_double8.png

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11 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

The projector you show is Super 8mm.

The film strip you show is Regular 8mm.

You have Double Regular 8mm.

No, that’s Super 8.

This is Regular 8:

6E78961F-F223-4EE4-A2DC-48F04DFA697B.thumb.jpeg.93204058e64614a3c61d5ce5efe507e4.jpeg

 

The projector is also Super 8, so I can’t explain why it doesn’t work. Perhaps the projector is faulty and the frame adjustment is stuck at one extreme.

I have encountered Double 8 that was poorly slit, not exactly down the centre so one half was wider than it should be, which caused problems going through a projector, but that shouldn’t offset the frame.

I can only suggest trying the film on a viewer/editor.

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Have you tried comparing a short length of your DS8 film with another piece of super-8 film that you know is alright, over a lightbox ?  Then you'd see straightaway if there's any shrinkage or uneven splitting involved. If shrunk, very often another projector may play it OK.  But as I think aapo  said earlier, it's probably not a good idea to project it.... or perhaps with a decent hand-viewer. Hopefully a scan should be steady.

Edited by Doug Palmer
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