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Need guidance for my career transition, anyone can give me some advice? [Desperately]


Samuel Lu

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For someone lighting a bigger set after working primarily on smaller ones, how do you know what kind of G&E package to rent? Or if you're starting small but get hired on a bigger job – who finds the right gaffer and G&E crew to work with you?

I suppose if you have a producer who brings on an experienced gaffer this is not an issue.

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1 hour ago, M Joel W said:

Just out of curiosity – why has no one recommend working your way up camera dept or G&E? 

I don't know anyone who works in G&E who has been a passionate photographer in the past. Most of the guys I know who are G&E enjoy being G&E, many had zero experience going in and were trained on the job. I don't really see the career path from G&E to Cinematography, even though as we all know, many people have done it in the past, in today's world I just don't see it happening much. 

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20 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I don't know anyone who works in G&E who has been a passionate photographer in the past. Most of the guys I know who are G&E enjoy being G&E, many had zero experience going in and were trained on the job. I don't really see the career path from G&E to Cinematography, even though as we all know, many people have done it in the past, in today's world I just don't see it happening much. 

How much is an aspiring DP meant to know about lighting? To what extent is the DP directing grip and electric and to what extent the camera department? One thing I'll say for Deakins is he has his lighting diagrams all set up (though if he collaborates with someone else on them I don't know) – but if I'm not mistaken he started in documentary on smaller sets, too, I believe. 

Or generally will you have a gaffer who is autonomous enough to translate the DP's intention even if the DP isn't super technical? I mean, let's say you understand what each light does and the basics of hard source/soft source and color temperature and whatever. What percentage of the lighting decisions are made by the DP directly and what percentage by the gaffer interpreting the DP's intent?

What if you understand less than that? And are starting purely as a photographer moving to video or film?

Or more? Do some DPs micromanage every aspect of G&E? I imagine someone working their way up camera dept or G&E would be more likely to?

What about some like Kaminski or Elswitt? 

Genuinely curious, not trying to be a contrarian or anything. I haven't been getting on set enough lately.

Edit: I have seen a number of people work their way up over a few years, often by going to film school and/or buying a camera package, so I think it is possible. I'm just curious because if someone asked me to shoot something on a larger scale, I wouldn't know how to run a set to light it. But with planning and a good gaffer, I think I could articulate my intent.

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28 minutes ago, M Joel W said:

For someone lighting a bigger set after working primarily on smaller ones, how do you know what kind of G&E package to rent? Or if you're starting small but get hired on a bigger job – who finds the right gaffer and G&E crew to work with you?

I suppose if you have a producer who brings on an experienced gaffer this is not an issue.

Thanks for commenting, Personally, I think to make a film is unnecessarily that complicated (of course it depends on the level of the standard). To tell a story, I just need to know how to light a scene realistically, and all the visual stuff together enables the audiences to immerse in that story. No matter it is practical or HMI, or simply use the free source, the sunlight if I can manage the process efficiently in a certain period of time window.  (It is easier said than done, though. A guy with zero sense of filmmaking can be judgemental on a movie.)

Yet I am talking about indie filmmaking not the production studio work which I have no idea about it. To get to the high end film set, I think that heavily rely on the network you have, obviously the fastest route would be going to a film school, but again, it still depends on the person's personality and the way he/she works, so the film school can be good for someone also can be bad for someone(time and money wasting). For me? I don't know, I haven't gotten a chance to get into one, but I am seriously considering to go one. It provides an opportunity to let me work a lot with professional equips and teamwork in a relatively very short period of time, those practices can accelerate my skill learning, and if I am talented, I guess I will get some attention from the people around me in different groups. But no matter which route to choose, I think to get on to the top tier, it requires a major component- LUCK.

Again, to a person like me, has zero network in filmmaking industry, I can't just randomly travel around in Burbank to buy some $2.95 coffee to convince some professionals to give me an opportunity.  

Just some thoughts out of my imagination, I could be totally wrong, which partially I hope so.

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21 minutes ago, Samuel Lu said:

Thanks for commenting, Personally, I think to make a film is unnecessarily that complicated (of course it depends on the level of the standard). To tell a story, I just need to know how to light a scene realistically, and all the visual stuff together enables the audiences to immerse in that story. No matter it is practical or HMI, or simply use the free source, the sunlight if I can manage the process efficiently in a certain period of time window.  (It is easier said than done, though. A guy with zero sense of filmmaking can be judgemental on a movie.)

Yet I am talking about indie filmmaking not the production studio work which I have no idea about it. To get to the high end film set, I think that heavily rely on the network you have, obviously the fastest route would be going to a film school, but again, it still depends on the person's personality and the way he/she works, so the film school can be good for someone also can be bad for someone(time and money wasting). For me? I don't know, I haven't gotten a chance to get into one, but I am seriously considering to go one. It provides an opportunity to let me work a lot with professional equips and teamwork in a relatively very short period of time, those practices can accelerate my skill learning, and if I am talented, I guess I will get some attention from the people around me in different groups. But no matter which route to choose, I think to get on to the top tier, it requires a major component- LUCK.

Again, to a person like me, has zero network in filmmaking industry, I can't just randomly travel around in Burbank to buy some $2.95 coffee to convince some professionals to give me an opportunity.  

Just some thoughts out of my imagination, I could be totally wrong, which partially I hope so.

I think you're right – sorry for derailing the thread. I'm curious about how studio pictures are lit for my own reasons that are not directly related to this thread. People I know who have taken this path (smaller projects to bigger projects) mostly work in ads and music videos to start, then later move into features. Even those who have gone to film school. So I would start looking to shoot music videos maybe but am not an expert. 

I do think sets are a good place to network so starting in another position might not be so bad if you're working for someone whose work you admire.

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54 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I don't know anyone who works in G&E who has been a passionate photographer in the past. Most of the guys I know who are G&E enjoy being G&E, many had zero experience going in and were trained on the job. I don't really see the career path from G&E to Cinematography, even though as we all know, many people have done it in the past, in today's world I just don't see it happening much. 

I am terrified to join the discussion here since I am a total outsider. 

From the psychology standpoint, I cannot imagine myself working in G&E Dept. I also have no Gaffer experience, but being a professional portrait photographer more than a decade, I do understand how lighting works, I walk into a room, I will immediately know it is good or bad for the overall image, I can do some modification on this room to make it 'prettier', make everything include the small props fit my color pallet, to move distraction out of the frame.... I guess you guys call that Production Design.

In my photography career, I used to work on my own, like the running&gunning 1 man crew, for a long time, and later I have managed a relatively big photography crew (about 20 people) to shoot some high end fashion brand's advertising stuff, the logic is pretty much the same, you want to make something big, you also need a bigger team to help you to bring an idea to life. I have no doubt about it.

I may not know all the professional terms of filmmaking, but let's be honest, a good painter may be can not produce a winning picture, but he/she definitely can make an image stunning. 100% agree that we need to learn something from scratch, but the learning curve would be significantly different. The skills are teachable and learnable, but the 'STYLE' is not taught by anyone but adopted by yourself. 

 

Edit: If there's a chance to let me work as a grip, running guy, or a person who takes care of the trash and coffee, I would more than happy to take it, I haven't had a chance to see a real set yet. Everything is an opportunity for me. I am just trying to be honest, I won't do that for long, I got to find a way to touch the camera.

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20 minutes ago, M Joel W said:

I think you're right – sorry for derailing the thread. I'm curious about how studio pictures are lit for my own reasons that are not directly related to this thread. People I know who have taken this path (smaller projects to bigger projects) mostly work in ads and music videos to start, then later move into features. Even those who have gone to film school. So I would start looking to shoot music videos maybe but am not an expert. 

I do think sets are a good place to network so starting in another position might not be so bad if you're working for someone whose work you admire.

Some people recommend me to apply for a still photographer on a film set, I think that's very reasonable since I can straight start to work without no problem, heard that actors hate still photographers? (according to Team Deakins Podcast).

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Just start shooting stuff and see what happens. It's literally all you can do.

Bear in mind when Deakins talks it down, he's probably basing that on his own experience. And his own experience as a cinematographer is enormous, which is great, but the way he got in decades ago probably didn't tell him that much about how things work now. What he may mean is that you can't do it the way he did it, which is no great surprise given that you aren't an English film student in the 1970s.

If there was ever a fixed route in, there certainly isn't now. People seem to get all kinds of jobs for all kinds of strange reasons, or no reason at all.

You almost certainly won't end up exactly where you wanted to be; almost nobody ever does, but if you're willing to accept that, and if you can genuinely afford to try, fine.

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18 minutes ago, Phil Rhodes said:

Just start shooting stuff and see what happens. It's literally all you can do.

Bear in mind when Deakins talks it down, he's probably basing that on his own experience. And his own experience as a cinematographer is enormous, which is great, but the way he got in decades ago probably didn't tell him that much about how things work now. What he may mean is that you can't do it the way he did it, which is no great surprise given that you aren't an English film student in the 1970s.

If there was ever a fixed route in, there certainly isn't now. People seem to get all kinds of jobs for all kinds of strange reasons, or no reason at all.

You almost certainly won't end up exactly where you wanted to be; almost nobody ever does, but if you're willing to accept that, and if you can genuinely afford to try, fine.

I am trying my best to know some people who work as a filmmaker, I don't care he/she is a professional filmmaker or like me just love this industry, and there is only one reason for doing this, is to shoot something, if I am good at acting, I would invite my best friends Mr. Tripod and Mr. C-stand work with me to tell some simple story. If there's not audience at all, so be it, the fulfillment and the joy I about to get is nowhere else I can get.

So, it is a rough journey, I get it, I knew it before I dropped off my still photography career, I asked myself, what kind of life that I want to have, how do I want people remembering me... I guess the answer will bring me peace when I hit the road.

(Everything looks gorgeous from outside.  The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. 理想是一座围城,城外的人想进去,城里的人想出来。)

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1 hour ago, Samuel Lu said:

理想是一座围城,城外的人想进去,城里的人想出来

I do like that!

I don't think it's so much a rough journey as an uncertain one, which is a roughness all its own. You have only very general control over where you end up. You may not get to do exactly the work you choose (almost nobody does) and that has to be OK.

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2 minutes ago, Phil Rhodes said:

I do like that!

I don't think it's so much a rough journey as an uncertain one, which is a roughness all its own. You have only very general control over where you end up. You may not get to do exactly the work you choose (almost nobody does) and that has to be OK.

“Get to do exactly the work you choose” is a place called Utopia. The moment we realized it never exists the moment we become a free man. Otherwise, we are only the prisoners of our own device

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8 hours ago, Samuel Lu said:

Edit: If there's a chance to let me work as a grip, running guy, or a person who takes care of the trash and coffee, I would more than happy to take it, I haven't had a chance to see a real set yet. Everything is an opportunity for me. I am just trying to be honest, I won't do that for long, I got to find a way to touch the camera.

Honestly, being a PA (production assistant) is where MANY top filmmakers start. They get their feet wet, make some connections, use those other people from their days working as a PA to make short films and next thing they know, they're making bigger shows.  Guys like Spielberg started that way, back when you could just show up on set and work. Harder to do that these days, but becoming a PA on a bigger show maybe tougher than you think. May have to start out small and many shows limit the PA's ability to connect with the main unit crew. However, if you want a lesson in what its like to work on a big movie, that's a good lesson, if you can make it happen. 

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7 hours ago, Phil Rhodes said:

Bear in mind when Deakins talks it down, he's probably basing that on his own experience. And his own experience as a cinematographer is enormous, which is great, but the way he got in decades ago probably didn't tell him that much about how things work now. What he may mean is that you can't do it the way he did it, which is no great surprise given that you aren't an English film student in the 1970s.

That's why it's so hard to give advice unless you're doing it now. 

I work with young people daily and I see how much they work and how they struggle. Thanks to low cost digital technology, there are so many ways to get your feet wet on your own productions for low cost. There are SO many creatives world wide who will work for literally peanuts, just to work on SOMETHING. It just wasn't like that in the past. 

Prior to film schools pumping out creatives with crazy unrealistic dreams. Prior to the digital democratization of filmmaking. Prior to streaming/low-cost internet distribution, things were much more straight forward. There was simply way less competition and there was a lot of work. It was impossible to build a demo reel based on some bullshit you shot specifically for the reel, it was too costly. Low budget indy films just didn't exist,  you were working for a major, or you were not working. It was in a lot of cases, easier to get into the industry if you knew the right people, but of course harder to find/meed the right people because prior to the modern internet, the information was just not out there. You needed to be in the right social circles and hope that you meet the right person. It's not much dissimilar today, but it's A LOT harder due to simply how many people are making content. We have never in the history of this industry had so many people making professionally looking content than we do today. Just glance at all the "filmmaking" channels on YouTube. Guys making a living "teaching" filmmaking on YouTube, but none of them have ever worked on a real film set. Some of the have millions of subscribers and 100's of videos, shooting with 8k cameras, full crews and really decent production value. Film producers in the 80's would DIE to get millions of views on their feature films, let alone some random educational video series. 

So again... what I tell people who want to come into the industry today, is the same thing I tell my students. Get a backup career launched and make YOUR OWN content on the side for fun. Don't try to be a "crew person" because the rate of failure with young people going that route is very high. I see it all the time, people come, they try for a few years, get burnt out and go home. Then they do what I suggested and go back to school for some other remedial job and make projects on the side. Funny enough, that's exactly what I do now... having tried the freelance crew member on and off for the 19 years I've lived here. Yet some 24 year old whose parents bought them a Red Helium, prime kit and tripod, is always going to get work. They may get paid like shit, but if they're doing a dozen different jobs a month, how long before they have a super amazing reel and get some better paid work? I feel bad for those who can't afford to buy a nice camera and work their ass off, eating ramen noodles and living in a two bedroom apartment with 4 people for $600/month until they either make it, or they fail miserably. Again, can't tell you how many people I've met who come here all excited and a few years later, disappear. 

Unless you find your niche and push hard to be "that guy" everyone knows who is in that niche, I don't think you can be successful anymore UNLESS you have a lot of money and/or unbelievable connections; IE friends/parents get you in. I can count on one hand, how many people I know are super successful without nepotism. Without some sort of huge financial boost that either got them through AFI (a film school where the connections actually work to further your career) or got a camera/made a movie that's helped launch their career. 

For the record... when I look back on my life, the only regret I have is not being focused enough. Had I just been a bit more focused, a bit more dedicated when good opportunities arose, I think my freelance career would be a bit more successful. I just get bored of all the games, the shit you have to wade through in order to move up the ladder. For what? So for the rest of my life, I can deal with the same shit? This industry is not glamorous, it's honestly a shitty business, it's not all roses and lollipops. 

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9 hours ago, M Joel W said:

How much is an aspiring DP meant to know about lighting?

From my experience working with some pretty decent DP's, most of them know quite a bit about lighting.

9 hours ago, M Joel W said:

Or generally will you have a gaffer who is autonomous enough to translate the DP's intention even if the DP isn't super technical?

There are DP's who aren't very technical and there are guys like Deakins who are VERY technical.

9 hours ago, M Joel W said:

I mean, let's say you understand what each light does and the basics of hard source/soft source and color temperature and whatever. What percentage of the lighting decisions are made by the DP directly and what percentage by the gaffer interpreting the DP's intent?

On a real show, the decisions are made way up front, sometimes months before production. The DP and gaffer will work together figuring out what they'll need, not necessarily for every scene, but for the tricky ones. They'll location scout, they'll look at charts of sun movements, they'll figure out color temp's and if they need to block windows, build big diffusion over exterior scenes, etc. It's very complicated honestly, it's just the gaffer can focus on the actual implementation and the DP can "direct" the gaffer, just like the DP directs the assistants, who are more in charge of the camera/lensing. 

9 hours ago, M Joel W said:

What if you understand less than that? And are starting purely as a photographer moving to video or film?

Most of the time photographers don't use cinema lights. Nor do they need to compose for a moving shot, where the lighting maybe different in multiple spots in a given scene and that needs to be thought out. As a DP,  you have WAY more to worry about. I've worked on dozens of pretty high profile fashion and commercials, focused on stills. We never move the camera on those shoots, we shoot the exact moments the fashion photographers shoot, just with characters in motion. A lot of times, if we were to lessen the focal length, we'd see reflectors, lights, rigs, all sorts of things in frame. So we even have to shoot at the same or greater focal length, that's how "restrictive" photography is compared to cinematography. On a lightweight narrative, I have to light an entire scene AND keep it consistent for however long it's going to take to shoot it. So we have to know how long the sun is going be up and where it's going. We need to know how that will effect our shot and compensate. Sometimes Directors want to shoot dozens of takes, medium, close up, cowboy, extreme close up, wide, inserts, over the shoulder, reverses, and that takes time. If you want the first frame of that scene to match the last frame 8hrs later, you need a great game plan. That's what separates photographers and cinematographers in my opinion. 

9 hours ago, M Joel W said:

Do some DPs micromanage every aspect of G&E? I imagine someone working their way up camera dept or G&E would be more likely to?

Nope. A good gaffer will take care of everything. I've DP'd with some great gaffers. It's amazing what they can do. You just come up with the game plan on the scout, you get to set in the morning and the lights are already set up, the camera is ready to go. You have a sip of coffee and after a quick check over things, you are good to go. 

Honestly, there are plenty of examples of G&E people moving to camera, but it's less than you'd think over-all. 

9 hours ago, M Joel W said:

What about some like Kaminski or Elswitt? 

No idea, haven't seen either one of them work. 

9 hours ago, M Joel W said:

Edit: I have seen a number of people work their way up over a few years, often by going to film school and/or buying a camera package, so I think it is possible. I'm just curious because if someone asked me to shoot something on a larger scale, I wouldn't know how to run a set to light it. But with planning and a good gaffer, I think I could articulate my intent.

I DP and Direct my own work, I have a great camera assistant and (try to) have a great gaffer. On my last short, I had no gaffer. It was horrible, the amount of mistakes we made, was unacceptable. I blame myself because we forgot to load the truck entirely, so when I got to set, we didn't have what we needed and instead of waiting, I went a head and shot the scenes and I'm horribly dismayed with the outcome. Nobody cares tho... I beat myself up for the mistakes, but if we had a gaffer, they'd have a check list and they'd know what was in the truck and what wasn't. It's things like that, where you really need a proper crew and yes, a great gaffer will help guide a less experienced DP. Honestly, I've been in situations where the gaffer has saved my ass as a DP, I've also had times where gaffers couldn't light themselves out of a dark room, knowing nothing about color balance for instance. But hey, it's a learning experience for everyone right? 

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On 10/1/2021 at 11:20 PM, M Joel W said:

Or generally will you have a gaffer who is autonomous enough to translate the DP's intention even if the DP isn't super technical? I mean, let's say you understand what each light does and the basics of hard source/soft source and color temperature and whatever. What percentage of the lighting decisions are made by the DP directly and what percentage by the gaffer interpreting the DP's intent?

It's almost infinitely variable. Some people are hugely dependent on their gaffers, operators and the director and really just expressed a desired mood for the crew to implement. Other people place every light. Sometimes directors place lights.

One of the biggest lies of film and TV is that there's any one way of doing anything. Almost everything is a matter of opinion at some level, to the point that behaviour that looks borderline incompetent to one person may look inspired to someone else. 

In certain geographic localities, on certain kinds of job, there's naturally lots of commonality, but even within that it's all over the place. This is one reason that lists of guidelines, let alone rules, are inevitably going to be either so specific they exclude reasonable behaviour, or so general they really help nobody.

The only exception is be on time. After that, it's all opinion.

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19 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Just glance at all the "filmmaking" channels on YouTube. Guys making a living "teaching" filmmaking on YouTube, but none of them have ever worked on a real film set. Some of the have millions of subscribers and 100's of videos, shooting with 8k cameras, full crews and really decent production value. Film producers in the 80's would DIE to get millions of views on their feature films, let alone some random educational video series. 

Like how "traders" teach people how to "trade" in the stock market. How "successful guru" teach people how to be "successful". They all make a big fortune on the internet due to the Information asymmetry, and the advantage of ignorance, lack of education.

The human nature has never changed in this realm, human tend to believe that magic pill.

People always need something to kill their time(money), nothing wrong with that, demand & supply 101. Somehow, I just not that type of person. I hope I will always stay true to myself no matter the circumstances are.

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On 10/2/2021 at 7:13 PM, Phil Rhodes said:

Almost everything is a matter of opinion at some level, to the point that behaviour that looks borderline incompetent to one person may look inspired to someone else.

Yeah I can see this.

Part of the reason I asked about G&E is that was the advice I was given when I was younger. But I don't think it was intended as good faith advice... At the time (given the specific context of the comment) it was more of a put down, I think (the entire comment was much less polite than just that)... 

That said some of the DPs I've worked with who've done quite well have gone out of their way to work in G&E or camera dept. on sets with top DPs so they can observe and learn. Or take classes with top shelf still photographers.

But from what I've seen, it's supplemental to their main approach to career, which is shooting smaller projects and moving up to bigger and bigger ones. Back in the day all the AFI grads seemed to have an A7S (with vintage lenses) so I'm not sure you even need much gear-wise to get started. 

Not knocking other departments – I received similar good faith advice from others (work in G&E or camera when you're in a new market to help network and learn to light and how a set is run), but I think they also recommended doing my own thing on the side if my goal was to shoot rather than work as an AC or grip, particularly if I had my eye on indie-oriented projects.

 

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On 9/30/2021 at 12:40 PM, Samuel Lu said:

Where would you recommend me to know some directors? I am in LA.Thank you!

There's no way you're going to hook up with an amazing director as an unknown DP.  Once a director has already proved themselves, that ship has sailed. You will not be able to work with them cause they can pretty much get anyone they want.  You can try to hit up schools or screenwriting groups.  Convince a writer that you can shoot one of their short films and take it from there.

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4 hours ago, Michael LaVoie said:

There's no way you're going to hook up with an amazing director as an unknown DP.  Once a director has already proved themselves, that ship has sailed. You will not be able to work with them cause they can pretty much get anyone they want.  You can try to hit up schools or screenwriting groups.  Convince a writer that you can shoot one of their short films and take it from there.

Thank you for your advice. 

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