Repair of Canon Scoopic vs Bolex EL

[Jon O'Brien]

I'm looking around for a standard 16mm camera with relatively quick exposure possibilities. I need something that will be easy and quick to use on the fly. The two cameras that seem just the ticket are the Canon Scoopic M or MS model and the Bolex EL with TTL metering. I hear that both cameras are tricky to repair if internal problems develop. I have two questions if anyone can help. 1) Is the aperture adjusted by the camera with these cameras, or does the operator look through the viewfinder and turn the aperture ring until something in the viewfinder indicates that the exposure is correct? 2) Of these two cameras, which do you think would be easier to repair if problems developed?

[Dom Jaeger]

Hi Jon,

The Scoopic has an auto-iris which works by way of a light meter cell just above the lens connected to a servo motor that controls the zoom iris. It’s a proper multi-bladed (6 or 8 blades from memory) iris, but the zoom is fixed. 

The EL has a light meter cell that can be dropped behind the lens for proper TTL metering, but it has to be moved out of the way before filming can begin, so you can’t meter while filming. It works with any lens you mount to the camera. Two LEDs in the viewfinder tell you when the aperture is correctly set. With this and other Bolexes it’s also possible to use an auto-iris zoom like the various EE or OE models which do meter and automatically adjust the aperture while filming, but the iris is 2 leaf diamond-shaped.

You could contact Du-All or Visual Products in the States to ask their opinion about the servicing issues of each (though I’m not actually sure if they work on ELs). I’ve started working on Scoopics, even though they are a bit of a pain - I have three in my shop at the moment - but every camera has it’s own quirks and I’m far from a Scoopic expert. I don’t work on ELs though, they are not easy to work on and I have more than enough Bolex work with all the other models. 

 

 

[Jon O'Brien]

Hi Dom,

Yes I think I will ask Du-All as they seem to know the Scoopic quite well. It's great to know that you are working on these. The price has really gone up on Scoopics so the days of buying a cheapy on ebay and trying it out and then getting another if it's not so great is gone.

My main concern with the Scoopic is reading reports on the internet of three main issues. 1) Some people say they are difficult to focus on the ground glass. They advise physically measuring distance to the subject. 2) Some people say they see flicker in the footage they get back. The general opinion seems to be that this might be able to be fixed by pressure plate adjustment. And 3), vertical jitter in some Scoopics.

All these things together do weigh against the Scoopic a bit, but on the other hand some people say that these problems are rare.

I like Bolexes, especially the spring-wound models that can be fitted with a motor. The EBM is another possibility. But of course exposure setting is slower with these.

If I could find a really good Scoopic, film tested, that would be great. So quick and easy to shoot with.

[Jon O'Brien]

I'm surprised by the number of sellers who are asking large prices for 16mm cameras now but who don't offer a link to a film test of the camera, nor a money-back guarantee. It's a lot to pay for an old camera, a precision instrument, to just go by luck.

[Simon Wyss]

Don’t pay more than $450, maybe 500, for any Paillard-Bolex H without a guarantee. Although consisting of so many parts their technical value isn’t higher. Since the youngest example could be only three years old theoretically, most of them have thirty to sixty years in their bones. The oldest are 86 now. An EL should be worth less because it’s got less mechanical parts, an EBM still lower.

 

Together with an overhaul costing $654 with me you easily spend a grand in order to have a reliably working camera with a warranty. That’s about a fifth of the initial price of around $5,000 with one lens.

Some examples have fetched 800 or so because a rare model or accompanied by a rare accessory. You can have a Mitchell 16 for three or four grand today, in comparison the Bolex has become way too expensive. Must have to do with the endless tinkering that’s going on these days. I am repairing an H-16 RX-5 whose flange focal distance is off by 0,1 mm. Another conversion to Super-16 that tanked. The camera body is compressed in one spot, none of the people who had it in their hands before me cured this. The mechanism was defunct. Ribald

Have an eye on what you get for your money.

[Jon O'Brien]

Thanks Simon and Dom. What do you think of the Bolex EBM? There's a beautiful, mint camera available in Melbourne. I'm amongst those with their eyes on it.

[Simon Wyss]

If you don’t mind the dependence on electricity and the fact that the mechanism can come to halts with the shutter half or fully open, why not. You have the possibility to add the crystal motor control and a ten times magnifying finder.

[Jon O'Brien]

The possibility of the shutter staying open or half open after a shot isn't such a great thing, especially for editing in camera and providing a nice-looking reel straight from camera. Not that I'd probably be doing too much of that.

It's really looking to me like the Scoopic is the stand-out camera for speed and ease of use. Another option is an SBM or similar with one of those Kern zooms that does have automatic metering. The two-blade aperture design isn't ideal but I'm starting to realise the perfect run n' gun camera just doesn't exist ?

Not in 16mm anyway.

My main concern with the Scoopic is image stability, and the flickering problem. What would cause flickering image brightness? A light leak perhaps? It's something I've not had problems with with a camera before, but several Scoopic users have mentioned that this is a tendency of some old Scoopics.

[Jon O'Brien]

Vertical jitter is a main reason I got out of Super 8, despite their incredible ease of use. It's such a pity the Scoopic can suffer from this. But if you can get hold of a good one, it would be a great camera for sure.

[Jon O'Brien]

Dom, do you find the Scoopic to be reasonably adjustable, in terms of pressure plate adjustment and the gate/pull-down claw area? It must be difficult to really know what the correct tolerances are.

[Dom Jaeger]

On 10/24/2021 at 7:08 PM, Jon O'Brien said:

Dom, do you find the Scoopic to be reasonably adjustable, in terms of pressure plate adjustment and the gate/pull-down claw area? It must be difficult to really know what the correct tolerances are.

You can adjust some things, and I have the repair manual, but it’s not a particularly service friendly camera. Gate jitter could be wear to the movement or claw, which would need parts. The lateral tension is a spring leaf, a  bit like a Bolex:

I don’t really know what causes the flickering some people have noticed. Normally that would suggest uneven exposure due to small speed variations, so perhaps the motor speed regulation on Scoopics is liable to hunt a little. 

As far as EBMs go, they are very much like normal Bolexes in terms of the pulldown/transport/stability. But I think they are way overpriced for what they are. You could add a motor to a Rex4 or 5 and get a similar (in some ways better) package. I don’t think mags make much sense on a Bolex, but the EBM mount is useful if you want to use big zooms or adapt to PL or something. Otherwise I really prefer the spring powered turret cameras, but that’s just my preference.

Here’s what’s  inside an EBM:

And inside a Rex 4 (variable shutter front and mechanical governor not shown):

 

[Jon O'Brien]

I read somewhere (I saved it as a favourite so can find it again) yesterday that someone suggested that flicker could have something to do with LED lights inside the viewfinder. I think that's what they meant. Seems a bit farfetched maybe. Surely you would see a red colour in the flicker if that was so.

The Bolex is unbelievably simple inside. That's amazing.

[Jon O'Brien]

Does anyone know if the large Kern zooms designed to be used with the Bolex H16 Rx models or SBM etc (C mount or Bolex Bayonet) such as the POE, designed for auto exposure adjustment, are readily usable with the auto exposure fully working with the batteries available today? I need something very reliable. There are solutions ranging from packing out the battery compartment with oven foil, to adding a spring on top of the smaller batteries available now. Do these solutions work well?

[Jon O'Brien]

Notwithstanding being overpriced, the great advantages of the Bolex, assuming auto exposure is possible, are the huge number of available spare parts, and the ability to change the lens and presumably do things like collimating the lens, checking FFD etc.

On top of that, the Bolex can film with no battery.

Plus, a spring-driven Bolex just has tons of street cred. They look so cool.

[Doug Palmer]

5 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

 

The Bolex is unbelievably simple inside. That's amazing.

Yes, I wasn't aware of this, thanks Dom for the photo.  Maybe then that's why the electric Bolex's tend to be quieter-running, with fewer cogs ?

5 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Does anyone know if the large Kern zooms designed to be used with the Bolex H16 Rx models or SBM etc (C mount or Bolex Bayonet) such as the POE, designed for auto exposure adjustment, are readily usable with the auto exposure fully working with the batteries available today? I need something very reliable. There are solutions ranging from packing out the battery compartment with oven foil, to adding a spring on top of the smaller batteries available now. Do these solutions work well?

I used a POE Kern 16-100 for a while, and found the auto exposure accurate.  I think I used the recommended old-style battery, but I can't see any reason why smaller batteries with spacing wouldn't work.  I found it a very sharp lens too. Just a bit too bulky.  But the auto exposure was very convenient at times.

[Simon Wyss]

There are fresh prime lenses available with servo iris. A C-mount example:

Drawback is you need an electronic control unit for these but they work nicely. The Xenoplan is a four-glass classic giving sharp an evenly lit images.

[Jon O'Brien]

Thanks Doug -- good to know. Yes, it is a big bulky lens. Not the best in that regard. The Scoopic provides a smaller overall unit.

Simon, thank you for letting me know. I wasn't aware of these xenoplans. I can't find much information on them so far. Do you screw a C mount lens into them? I don't mind using an electronic control.

[Simon Wyss]

They are C mount, ready to attach to a camera, arrow points to it.

I have stolen the images from https://www.stemmer-imaging.com/en/?choose-site=active.

[Dom Jaeger]

Those Schneider lenses are machine vision industrial lenses, the iris is mechanised for remote activation through a control box, I don’t think there’s a light meter cell for auto-aperture function. The focus doesn’t even have a scale, it’s just a ring you lock to a certain distance setting. Lenses like this are not designed for film-making but for industrial monitoring or measuring applications. Plus the whole unit including control box costs several thousand dollars.

[Simon Wyss]

I thought it would be interesting to upset the apple cart (and look which way the apples would go a-rolling. D. H. Lawrence, a sane revolution).

[Doug Palmer]

I don't know if you considered the Beaulieu. Not as well engineered as Bolex and maybe not quite as compact as Canon Scoopic. Interchangeable lens though, and good exposure control. Very nice power zoom, much better than the one fitted to the Bolex POE lens. Viewfinder much brighter.  Lots of filming speeds.  Downside: film loading takes longer.

 

[Jon O'Brien]

I haven't really considered the Beaulieu as I've never seen one in real life or filmed with one. They seem a bit rare over here. If there was a good one around with auto exposure working I'd be interested in checking it out.

[Simon Wyss]

This one maybe?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/124970568301?hash=item1d18d38a6d:g:hqkAAOSwzUFhbGh7&frcectupt=true

[Jon O'Brien]

Beaulieu 16mm cameras are attractively priced. They're maybe not so steady and durable as a Bolex though?

[Simon Wyss]

Beaulieu claw leaves film in +4 position, i. e. perforation hole # 4 counted from the optical axis. Paillard-Bolex +3 consistent with DIN 69. Beaulieu exposure time according to 144 degrees of a disc shutter. Mirror shutter reflex finder really not bad.

Noisy. Lightweight. Small base. Compact and handy. https://www.filmvorfuehrer.de/topic/12697-über-die-dritte-große-europäische-16-mm-film-kamera/