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2022 Film Stock Price Increases?


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2 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

 And why would anyone buy his toy when you can get a brand new one from arguably the best maker ever?

he was NOT going to sell the processor, he built the lab to process his own films and tried to get money back from it by processing films for customers. It is just that running a film lab it not a very good business on its own and he had to wrap it after a while. The idea was never to sell film processors; he wanted to run his own film lab because there was no film labs left in Finland after the Finnlab closed over 10 years ago ( was it 2009 or 2010, don't remember)  and the nearest available lab is in Sweden

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1 minute ago, aapo lettinen said:

It is just that running a film lab it not a very good business on its own and he had to wrap it after a while.

Exactly, that's why there were no labs lol. 

It's not rocket science, generally if there is no businesses that do XYZ thing, then it's usually because it's not a profitable thing to do. 

Plus the big shows want to be at the big labs. So even if there WAS a big show in Finland, they would never process locally. London is so close, they'd just ship. You'd be shocked how many films shoot in places like India and ship to Fotokem in LA. It's all a matter of trust and quality, something you can't build with a small independent lab very easily. 

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22 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It's not rocket science, generally if there is no businesses that do XYZ thing, then it's usually because it's not a profitable thing to do. 

Not sure this is an accurate statement from a business perspective. If that were true, how did businesses ever come to exist in the first place?

Businesses often fail because they assume "if you build it, they will come." But marketing is perhaps more important than the service or quality thereof in most cases. Cannot tell you how many businesses fail because people don't even know they exist.

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12 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

he was NOT going to sell the processor, he built the lab to process his own films and tried to get money back from it by processing films for customers. It is just that running a film lab it not a very good business on its own and he had to wrap it after a while. The idea was never to sell film processors; he wanted to run his own film lab because there was no film labs left in Finland after the Finnlab closed over 10 years ago ( was it 2009 or 2010, don't remember)  and the nearest available lab is in Sweden

Having been the first customer and having helped him as a friend, I can tell that the reason for closing the lab was not financial. The reason behind building the lab was that A.A. wanted to make movies of his own on 16mm film and being a l'uomo universale, a true master of many things, building a lab & scanners was also a nice challenge for him.

Running such an amateur lab can become a burden, however, if your original intention wasn't really to become a lab owner in the first place. His contribution was really nice at the time, but I'm happy that he can now concentrate on things he likes (building things) and not running a laboratory. Shame though that he never got in to making those movies he had planned to do.

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Little update. 

Pricing will go up in Feb not Jan. They haven't finalized the new price list yet. 

It will be on ALL products, not just motion picture. 

On a good side, Kodak's office in Hollywood is selling short-ends and re-can's (mostly 35mm) at a highly discounted rate currently. If ya need 35mm, this is the best deal I have seen since 2016. So call them and ask about the short-ends and re-can's. They have most stocks available and some are sealed, with dented cans. Most are only a few months old production date. They sadly don't get much 16mm in, I bought a bunch of what they had tho. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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16 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Little update. 

Pricing will go up in Feb not Jan. They haven't finalized the new price list yet. 

It will be on ALL products, not just motion picture. 

On a good side, Kodak's office in Hollywood is selling short-ends and re-can's (mostly 35mm) at a highly discounted rate currently. If ya need 35mm, this is the best deal I have seen since 2016. So call them and ask about the short-ends and re-can's. They have most stocks available and some are sealed, with dented cans. Most are only a few months old production date. They sadly don't get much 16mm in, I bought a bunch of what they had tho. 

Literally came here to say the same thing haha. Went to their hollywood office today and also heard that february is the month of the price increase. Stocked up from b&h for now with their student discount, they finally had some 16mm in stock.

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4 hours ago, Marco Montenegro said:

Hey folks I spoke to mr Brown personally from Kodak and he said he is not aware of any price increases. I shoot film only and I would be bummed if they increase it but he said that prices are the same 

Correct, the pricing is the same currently. The price change won't happen until the new price list comes out. It could be a week, it could be two weeks, but it's happening very soon. The good news is that Kodak has a great new discounted film program of re-can's, short ends and returned stock. So getting discounted stock won't be an issue at all. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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Ok guys, pricing increase is done! New prices are available on Kodak's website. 

16mm Color Negative went up around 10%, which is not bad at all. 

Looks like 35mm went up less. 

Well, this is good! 

https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Kodak-Motion-Picture-Products-Price-Catalog-US.pdf

 

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4 months on and the prices in the UK have gone up twice. They are now a little more than 20% up from last year. Makes non-commercial projects even more difficult to finance, sigh…

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45 minutes ago, Uli Meyer said:

4 months on and the prices in the UK have gone up twice. They are now a little more than 20% up from last year. Makes non-commercial projects even more difficult to finance, sigh…

Two points:

1) Do the resellers have film to sell? It seems 16mm Kodak film is pretty much sold out currently in Europe.

2) In Finland the price of Diesel has nearly doubled from 1.2 € / litre to 2.3 € / l. It is expected to go over 3 € this Summer. Expensive times ahead!

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1 hour ago, Uli Meyer said:

4 months on and the prices in the UK have gone up twice. They are now a little more than 20% up from last year. Makes non-commercial projects even more difficult to finance, sigh…

Kodak has only done one update on pricing, most likely the 2nd increase is not related to them, but general inflation. 

The pricing on 16mm stock only, went up 11%. 

Kodak is going to update the pricing again in 2023. 

I was told when they're done, the pricing will be around $1/ft for 35mm and around $.70/ft for 16mm. 

I hope it's not going to happen. 

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38 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Kodak has only done one update on pricing, most likely the 2nd increase is not related to them, but general inflation. 

The pricing on 16mm stock only, went up 11%. 

Kodak is going to update the pricing again in 2023. 

I was told when they're done, the pricing will be around $1/ft for 35mm and around $.70/ft for 16mm. 

I hope it's not going to happen. 

Kodak has got to do what they got to do -

Quote

In the company's first-quarter earnings call, CEO Jim Continenza said the company's losses were due to supply chain disruption; shortages in distribution, material, and labor; and increased costs of materials. He added that the company is taking steps to solve the problem by increasing lead times, stocking more materials, and by raising prices on its products.

 

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At those prices, noone will shoot film except for some studio pictures. Some s16 may be prevalent but 35 will be done except for big pictures. S16 is nice and doable but it is a look and not every project or filmmaker wants the s16 look unfortunately. We'll see what happens...

Edited by Giray Izcan
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8 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

Kodak has got to do what they got to do -

And the new Alexa, new Venice and new Red, plus Kodak's price increase, are enough to drive people away from film. 

Kodak isn't doing well financially, they're burning through money. Analysts are starting to get worried. 

This year, I've lost more 16mm gigs than ever. I though the pandemic was bad, this is outrageous. I've shot 3 things this year so far, usually I'm shooting weekly. The price increases have just pushed an already teetering financial situation over the top. Where I agree, Kodak has to do what they gotta do, poor management is their biggest problem. Their business mistakes, trickle down to the people who use their product. 

I predict, if Kodak does raise the price again in 2023, that'll be the end. Home movie people will not be able to afford that 1 roll of 50ft Super 8 or 100ft roll of Ektachrome 16mm. People like me doing commercials and music videos, will be laughed out of the meeting with our exorbitant prices for shooting on film vs digital. The big studio's will look at film costing several million more than digital and they'll just not green light it. 

Mix that with the biggest recession we've had in decades, I feel like this could be the end. 

If Kodak isn't making 80M feet a year, or so, they will not be able to keep the motion picture portion of their business, it's that simple. 

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9 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I predict, if Kodak does raise the price again in 2023, that'll be the end. Home movie people will not be able to afford that 1 roll of 50ft Super 8 or 100ft roll of Ektachrome 16mm. People like me doing commercials and music videos, will be laughed out of the meeting with our exorbitant prices for shooting on film vs digital. The big studio's will look at film costing several million more than digital and they'll just not green light it. 

If your prediction comes true, that would mean Kodak is on a suicide mission. Film just had a mini renaissance and by raising prices, they are putting all those analog cameras back to doorstopper status. I spend quite a few grand each year on non-commercial film projects but I don't know how many people like me are out there. In Germany there is a saying "Kleinvieh macht auch Mist" (small livestock also produces manure) but maybe not enough to support the Kodak business model, if there is one.

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50 minutes ago, Uli Meyer said:

maybe not enough to support the Kodak business model, if there is one.

Oh I don't think there has been a business model for years. 

I bet you wouldn't be surprised to know that Kodak's motion picture division is run by people who umm, are "film" people. They're mostly executives, business people who are hired for their skills at business, not understanding the industry. 

Anyway, Kodak doesn't make their money off motion picture really, it's a small part of their profits. So they could cut it off and still survive. At one point, the "executives" will have to make a decision (when they've destroyed film through high prices) to keep making it or kill the whole thing off. I don't think it's a purposeful suicide mission, but to stay alive, they will need to make some difficult decisions. 

The worst part is, they've been doing well as of recent, but that was all before the 2022 price hike. 

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If you look at the Kodak's latest financial report you can see that compared to Q1/2021 their sales revenues are up 25 million dollars but the cost of sales revenue is up 35 million dollars. That's totally unsustainable.

The only segment where Kodak has made progress in moving towards profitability in Q1 vs 2021 is Advanced materials which includes MP film. Still, only from loss of 4 million dollars to 3 million.

It's likely that one reason why there has been that movement towards profitability in that segment is the price hike. Still, the costs associated with the rising prices of materials and logistics have been keeping them from reaching the profitability yet.

Would you sell projects where you yourself lose money to your clients?

But well, if it's going to be too expensive to shoot film, ahem, I'm ready to take in all those worthless door stoppers you might have - 435, 235, 416, LT... ?

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My simplistic statement once again....we need the big directors and producers to choose film.....for it to trickle down to us at the bottom....I speak for myself.....but hey there's always Ilford atc to keep us photographers shooting 

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5 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

My simplistic statement once again....we need the big directors and producers to choose film.....for it to trickle down to us at the bottom....I speak for myself.....but hey there's always Ilford atc to keep us photographers shooting 

Prior to the pandemic, I would agree. Post pandemic and right before a huge recession is about to start? 

The studio's are all struggling, much of what is being shot now, was green lit prior to the pandemic. Once these shows are done, things will change. 

I hate to be negative nanny, but the writing is on the wall and it's not all Kodak's fault, it's all circumstantial. 

I'm not even worried about still film, it's much easier to be profitable with that. I'm worried about motion picture becoming so expensive that Kodak just gives up making it due to lower demand. Film as a medium ain't going anywhere. 

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It all remains to be seen. There are many things we don't know:

  1. Are lock downs going to continue in China?
  2. How long does the war continue in Ukraine?
  3. When are the logistics issues and raw material price issues going to get solved?
  4. How profitable is the motion picture film business vs. other segments of "Advanced materials" business?
  5. How much does Kodak need to raise prices? As much as people here don't like business people, it's their job to find the sweet middle road of asking not too low prices and not too high prices; business has to be profitable, but prices can't go too high or you'll lose your customers. They aren't idiots and they very much like getting paid. Motion picture film is still a good business with lots of paying customers (hey, they have currently an issue of having nothing to sell - their product is so loved!)

But it's certainly true that things must be difficult for studios too after the pandemic and cinemas having been closed for a long time. Even Netflix is losing customers (I haven't been a customer for some years now, I wasn't too impressed with what they had to offer) but then again, I'm not sure if they have that many shows that are shot on film. Who knows how everything is going to turn out? At times I wonder if there is much content I want to even see myself these days - I myself have been a big fan of many nerdier franchises such as Star Wars, Star Trek, LOTR - but at times it feels that nowadays they are more interested catering to audiences that don't really watch those series anyway than to those who have been fans for a long time. These new shows aren't shot on film either, but if that's the culture these days in studios in general, I guess it can be quite difficult to recoup the investments.

Well, that was somewhat off-topic already, but in the end, in regards to the topic we don't know but we'll eventually see. Meanwhile, it's a good idea to shoot on film if you can get your hands on some! ?

Edited by Heikki Repo
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The popularity of film seems to be increasing. Not just in stills. I was in a big camera store a few days ago and overheard the staff saying that "We're going to have to do something" to respond to this strongly growing interest in film. Their whole store is chock a block with digital gear. I heard one staff member say to the others "It's about our jobs!"

They said a customer comes in, enquires about a film camera or service, finds out the shop has nothing to offer, and walks out saying they will do business with such and such an online firm that does offer film equipment and services.

This trend has been growing long enough for it to look like more than just a flash in the pan. People want something that their mobile phones can't already give them. I still think that film will survive. Prices and supply might be a bit worrisome for a while. Just keep shooting film if you can afford a bit every now and then.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
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Filmmaking past a certain level is expensive no matter what you do, though obviously film as a shooting format is sunk if you can't get film stock. But in terms of expense, to get a really nice look out of digital you need something like a Sony FX9, and even though you're not buying film for it there's the massive drop in value of that camera body as newer models are released. I'd see that as a major concern. I wonder if digital gear will begin to see supply problems too. I bet not all is completely rosy in the digital world, either.

 

 

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