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Oleseaden Lale

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Hi all

Pretty new on here so please pardon me if I'm not exactly doing things the right way. I've been a hobbyist for the most part not until last year when I wanted to do things more seriously and started to do some spec commercials to build a portfolio. However, I'm just wondering what various approaches there are to find crews to work with and start getting more industry experience and jobs? Currently a Doctoral student (in the sciences) but I invest most of my free time into cinematography. I'm basically a 1 man band at the moment and would really appreciate some advice on how to progress from here especially not having attended film school. 

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Welcome to the forum! 

Sadly, there isn't one specific road that works the best. Everyone has their own skillset, their own connections, living in different parts of the world and so each road is very different. There are some real basic tips and tricks that can be given, but just remember it really comes down to many more things than these. Also, I don't think film school does anything anymore, besides make connections that you may or may not use in the future. I for one, have never used my film school connections because I never really made any. The UK is also a very different place than the US. Most of my UK friends struggle to find good work there and resort to traveling more than we do state side. There is also a BIG difference between someone working in Hollywood, where work is literally growing on trees vs someone living in the countryside where bulk of work is 100 miles away. 

With that said, the tricks I've learned over the years are as follows; 

- Make your own films in order to fine tune your craft. Tell stories that maybe other people in the world don't know about. Make them short, interesting and to the point. They don't need to be scripted, it could be documentary, but the more stories you tell, the more your name will get out there, the more resume building you will be doing. This could include music videos, commercials, industrial films as well, anything that you can produce that will hone your skills and look like a finished product. 

- Connect with locals who also want to be in the industry. There are PLENTY, but finding them can be tough. I know there are some UK based groups on Facebook, maybe hit one of them up and start to make a presence on there. There are also local events for sure, you need to find them and attend as many as you can. Your connections are your livelihood in this industry, they are your bread and butter. The only way to survive is to make them, so when you're not working, when you're not shooting, you need to be networking. 

- The film industry is like any other industry, only it's a bit more "catch 22" where if you haven't done something before, you generally won't get chosen to do it. So you almost need to have a wide range of skills that you can demonstrate through demo reel's and/or finished product. Where I don't like building a demo reel full of fake stuff, it can help build you up, it is a trick I see used a lot. Once you have that reel and some decent material for people to watch, it's a lot easier to bid on jobs and potentially get them. 

One thing I will say, it's A LOT easier to get work as a DP if you have a very good camera. If you're just renting gear like everyone else, it's harder to separate you from the pack. This is why so many people focus on gear and less on the craft, in today's age it really sadly is a gear world. 

Finally, education is everywhere these days. Youtube channels, applications that help demonstrate lighting setups in real time, dozens of great books and even groups like this to ask questions. Resources that up until the last decade or so, were a lot harder to access. Today I think everyone has everything they need at their fingertips. It's no longer a world where questions are hard to answer, today everyone can find 80% of what you need and that's all ya need to start. That last 20% can take decades to learn, but if you start by focusing on the basics; good camera, learn your craft, build connections, construct a decent demo and then start bidding on jobs, I think the road is pretty straight forward from there on out. By then, you'll not only know 80%, but also maybe another 5 - 10% on top. 

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3 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Welcome to the forum! 

Sadly, there isn't one specific road that works the best. Everyone has their own skillset, their own connections, living in different parts of the world and so each road is very different. There are some real basic tips and tricks that can be given, but just remember it really comes down to many more things than these. Also, I don't think film school does anything anymore, besides make connections that you may or may not use in the future. I for one, have never used my film school connections because I never really made any. The UK is also a very different place than the US. Most of my UK friends struggle to find good work there and resort to traveling more than we do state side. There is also a BIG difference between someone working in Hollywood, where work is literally growing on trees vs someone living in the countryside where bulk of work is 100 miles away. 

With that said, the tricks I've learned over the years are as follows; 

- Make your own films in order to fine tune your craft. Tell stories that maybe other people in the world don't know about. Make them short, interesting and to the point. They don't need to be scripted, it could be documentary, but the more stories you tell, the more your name will get out there, the more resume building you will be doing. This could include music videos, commercials, industrial films as well, anything that you can produce that will hone your skills and look like a finished product. 

- Connect with locals who also want to be in the industry. There are PLENTY, but finding them can be tough. I know there are some UK based groups on Facebook, maybe hit one of them up and start to make a presence on there. There are also local events for sure, you need to find them and attend as many as you can. Your connections are your livelihood in this industry, they are your bread and butter. The only way to survive is to make them, so when you're not working, when you're not shooting, you need to be networking. 

- The film industry is like any other industry, only it's a bit more "catch 22" where if you haven't done something before, you generally won't get chosen to do it. So you almost need to have a wide range of skills that you can demonstrate through demo reel's and/or finished product. Where I don't like building a demo reel full of fake stuff, it can help build you up, it is a trick I see used a lot. Once you have that reel and some decent material for people to watch, it's a lot easier to bid on jobs and potentially get them. 

One thing I will say, it's A LOT easier to get work as a DP if you have a very good camera. If you're just renting gear like everyone else, it's harder to separate you from the pack. This is why so many people focus on gear and less on the craft, in today's age it really sadly is a gear world. 

Finally, education is everywhere these days. Youtube channels, applications that help demonstrate lighting setups in real time, dozens of great books and even groups like this to ask questions. Resources that up until the last decade or so, were a lot harder to access. Today I think everyone has everything they need at their fingertips. It's no longer a world where questions are hard to answer, today everyone can find 80% of what you need and that's all ya need to start. That last 20% can take decades to learn, but if you start by focusing on the basics; good camera, learn your craft, build connections, construct a decent demo and then start bidding on jobs, I think the road is pretty straight forward from there on out. By then, you'll not only know 80%, but also maybe another 5 - 10% on top. 

All solid advice. Only thing I don't totally agree with is camera ownership, I think it's steadily becoming less and less of a factor, at least in LA. Most of the people I know who own a proper camera package don't really get more work as a result of the camera, it's just a way to make more money since the client pays you for the camera instead of some rental house. For the production, it doesn't really make a difference who they're paying for the camera. What they really hire you for is your skills and visual sensibilities. That and connections / referrals.

The only times when I've seen camera ownership be a factor in getting hired is low budget stuff where they want you to bring your camera for free. So, in that sense, buying a camera could be a decent option if you're just starting out and want to get work under your belt as fast as possible. However, those gigs usually aren't great since they're obviously just making hiring decisions that will save them the most money, not get them the best product.

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I would definitely recommend buying a basic camera package though, but nothing too expensive. Personally, I have a pocket 6k pro kit that probably cost me $3k total, you can get a really great image out of it. In terms of image quality and color I honestly prefer it to the Komodo, which will run you close to $10k for a full package. These days most of my gigs will rent proper cameras but I still get the occasional passion project / low budget thing that my friends are putting together where the pocket 6k really comes in clutch.

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20 minutes ago, Fedor Karpenko said:

The only times when I've seen camera ownership be a factor in getting hired is low budget stuff where they want you to bring your camera for free. So, in that sense, buying a camera could be a decent option if you're just starting out and want to get work under your belt as fast as possible. However, those gigs usually aren't great since they're obviously just making hiring decisions that will save them the most money, not get them the best product.

Correct and the OP lives in Coventry which is 100 miles away from any "entertainment" industry in the UK. So it's not like he'll be going into the city to borrow cameras so he can start learning. The key is to get a camera, learn and then use that camera on shows until you can work on big enough shows where you don't need to be a camera/kit guy, which may never happen honestly. 

I can count on my hand how many shows I've worked on where everything was rented. The bulk/majority of the work I've done in Hollywood, the DP brings their kit as well. Maybe not as the "A" camera, but they will use their kit for something. Everyone I know has Alexa Mini's or Red Helium's, they don't sit around. I make $1200 - $1800/day because I have a kit. If I didn't have a kit, I wouldn't get the jobs at all. Same goes for post production. I've done one feature with "rented" equipment and that was because the studio didn't allow us to work from our homes. Now, everyone works at home and if you don't have a system to cut with, you are not an editor anymore. The only time you can get away with not owning anything is if you're a high end person, working on big studio shows. I don't think giving feedback for those people is relevant in this discussion. 

Sadly, most productions are trying to save money. I've worked on multi-million dollar features and they'll skimp on how many cards they have for the cameras, let alone the camera type. Just to save $10k or so. It's crazy! Either you work or you don't work and complain. That's the "Hollywood" way sadly. 

 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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15 minutes ago, Fedor Karpenko said:

I would definitely recommend buying a basic camera package though, but nothing too expensive. Personally, I have a pocket 6k pro kit that probably cost me $3k total, you can get a really great image out of it. In terms of image quality and color I honestly prefer it to the Komodo, which will run you close to $10k for a full package.

Crazy right? I feel the same way. Only reason I don't own a pocket is that I hate the form factor. Hopefully BMD will solve that this year. 

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A lot of people get their foot in the industry door by getting a job at a rental house, where you'll learn all about the kit that is currently being used and make connections with working crews. If you're good at your job and personable, after a while you'll get on a set, even if you start at the bottom rung. 

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1 hour ago, Dom Jaeger said:

A lot of people get their foot in the industry door by getting a job at a rental house, where you'll learn all about the kit that is currently being used and make connections with working crews.

Yep, but sadly those jobs are difficult to find outside of media cities. 

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2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Correct and the OP lives in Coventry which is 100 miles away from any "entertainment" industry in the UK. So it's not like he'll be going into the city to borrow cameras so he can start learning. The key is to get a camera, learn and then use that camera on shows until you can work on big enough shows where you don't need to be a camera/kit guy, which may never happen honestly. 

I can count on my hand how many shows I've worked on where everything was rented. The bulk/majority of the work I've done in Hollywood, the DP brings their kit as well. Maybe not as the "A" camera, but they will use their kit for something. Everyone I know has Alexa Mini's or Red Helium's, they don't sit around. I make $1200 - $1800/day because I have a kit. If I didn't have a kit, I wouldn't get the jobs at all. Same goes for post production. I've done one feature with "rented" equipment and that was because the studio didn't allow us to work from our homes. Now, everyone works at home and if you don't have a system to cut with, you are not an editor anymore. The only time you can get away with not owning anything is if you're a high end person, working on big studio shows. I don't think giving feedback for those people is relevant in this discussion. 

Sadly, most productions are trying to save money. I've worked on multi-million dollar features and they'll skimp on how many cards they have for the cameras, let alone the camera type. Just to save $10k or so. It's crazy! Either you work or you don't work and complain. That's the "Hollywood" way sadly. 

 

Great insight honestly. I've got a small bit of kit at the moment (Panasonic Lumix Gh5, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4k, an electronic gimbal, DJI Mavic 2 pro and a small LED lighting kit). Looking to get a camera dolly from ProAim as they have some affordable options because using am electronic gimbal doesn't necessarily give me the results I want in certain scenarios like for longer takes with smooth subtle movement. It's crazy that gear almost trumps everything else in today's world but I'm ready to build my gear gradually and upgrade my camera eventually when I get a job after my PhD.

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You can do very acceptable work with the GH5 and Pocket 4K; it is not necessary to spend large amounts of money on camera gear anymore. I'd say that getting a dolly is a much better idea and a long-term purchase.

As to crew, for less-expensive people look on mandy.com and put out a job ad; it's all I'd do. For more-expensive people with TV and film experience, go to the diary services. Right now those people will be very busy, but if it's just a short project it's easier. Eventually you'll start to get to know people you like.

The process of managing a crew is not always straightforward, as in any situation where you have a disparate bunch of people dragged together for a job. The general standard of management technique in the film industry is very poor because most of the people who become managers of others have had literally no training to do it beyond observing other people. When a first assistant steps up to being a director of photography, he or she likely has no experience of managing more than one or two other people, and will suddenly become a head of department with authority over two other departments. Even on a smaller project, as a direct-entry DoP you will find yourself managing probably at least two, possibly four other people and if it's a shoot-direct project of your own invention then you're responsible for the whole thing. Even with the best, most experienced people, which you likely will not have, this is not easy.

The biggest problem I see is frankly people not being managerial enough. Being in charge without making yourself unpopular is not easy, but the sad reality is you cannot be friends with people and manage them effectively. Sometimes a degree of sternness is required because time on set is very expensive, and that is not easy if you are not confident of your own position. Ideally you will have a first assistant director, a large part of whose job is to provide the required sternness, but if it's just you, well, it's up to you.

This leads on to the second issue, which is crew's attitude to you. It is likely that at some point you will end up managing someone who is much more experienced than you. Film crew who consider themselves to be slumming it for the day can be either an absolute dream, or an absolute pain in the backside. What they should do is sidle up to you and mutter suggestions discreetly in your ear. What they should not do is gripe about you behind your back. What they will do is likely a combination of both and you need to have the strength of character to tell them what you want. If you're paying the bills, you're in charge. Even if you screw it up badly, it's still cheaper than film school, and if that's your approach to learning the ropes, so be it.

The phrase I've heard used is "friendly, but not friends." It's not easy. As I say, it's often done horribly badly in film and TV, leading to significant and unnecessary friction, which is one reason once a crew is established as working well together, it tends to stick together.

For what it's worth I'm in Essex and crewing up for a very simple one-day short soon, so if you find anyone who's looking for work... well, you're lucky, but please refer that person to me!

Phil

 

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18 minutes ago, Phil Rhodes said:

You can do very acceptable work with the GH5 and Pocket 4K; it is not necessary to spend large amounts of money on camera gear anymore. I'd say that getting a dolly is a much better idea and a long-term purchase.

As to crew, for less-expensive people look on mandy.com and put out a job ad; it's all I'd do. For more-expensive people with TV and film experience, go to the diary services. Right now those people will be very busy, but if it's just a short project it's easier. Eventually you'll start to get to know people you like.

The process of managing a crew is not always straightforward, as in any situation where you have a disparate bunch of people dragged together for a job. The general standard of management technique in the film industry is very poor because most of the people who become managers of others have had literally no training to do it beyond observing other people. When a first assistant steps up to being a director of photography, he or she likely has no experience of managing more than one or two other people, and will suddenly become a head of department with authority over two other departments. Even on a smaller project, as a direct-entry DoP you will find yourself managing probably at least two, possibly four other people and if it's a shoot-direct project of your own invention then you're responsible for the whole thing. Even with the best, most experienced people, which you likely will not have, this is not easy.

The biggest problem I see is frankly people not being managerial enough. Being in charge without making yourself unpopular is not easy, but the sad reality is you cannot be friends with people and manage them effectively. Sometimes a degree of sternness is required because time on set is very expensive, and that is not easy if you are not confident of your own position. Ideally you will have a first assistant director, a large part of whose job is to provide the required sternness, but if it's just you, well, it's up to you.

This leads on to the second issue, which is crew's attitude to you. It is likely that at some point you will end up managing someone who is much more experienced than you. Film crew who consider themselves to be slumming it for the day can be either an absolute dream, or an absolute pain in the backside. What they should do is sidle up to you and mutter suggestions discreetly in your ear. What they should not do is gripe about you behind your back. What they will do is likely a combination of both and you need to have the strength of character to tell them what you want. If you're paying the bills, you're in charge. Even if you screw it up badly, it's still cheaper than film school, and if that's your approach to learning the ropes, so be it.

The phrase I've heard used is "friendly, but not friends." It's not easy. As I say, it's often done horribly badly in film and TV, leading to significant and unnecessary friction, which is one reason once a crew is established as working well together, it tends to stick together.

For what it's worth I'm in Essex and crewing up for a very simple one-day short soon, so if you find anyone who's looking for work... well, you're lucky, but please refer that person to me!

Phil

 

Many thanks Phil...this was massively insightful to say the least. About the short you're crewing up for in Essex, I'd be interested for sure as I've never really been on set with a crew before and would be a great experience for me to have a feel for what it is like regardless of what roles are open. Let me know if this would be possible.

 

Lale

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11 hours ago, Oleseaden Lale said:

I've got a small bit of kit at the moment

That's great, good start honestly, two good cameras ya got there. Just don't forget about audio. Separate recorder (preferably) and wireless lavs will do the trick to start with. Good picture must have good audio. 

So yea, I'd just do what I said, keep working, keep shooting and as you develop your skills, you'll find people to work with, it's not that difficult, even in rural areas outside of the industry. I never had issues finding people living in a rural community. 

One thing I'd say tho, is to spend more money making content, than on equipment. 

Outside of that,  do you think after you PhD, you'd give up the sciences and want to be a filmmaker? Gosh, I don't know if had a PhD, that I'd never get into the film industry. Part of the reason I am in it full-time is because frankly, it's the only way I can make decent money and enjoy my life. Very few professions allow such a diverse lifestyle. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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7 hours ago, Oleseaden Lale said:

Many thanks Phil...this was massively insightful to say the least. About the short you're crewing up for in Essex, I'd be interested for sure as I've never really been on set with a crew before and would be a great experience for me to have a feel for what it is like regardless of what roles are open. Let me know if this would be possible.

 

Lale

I'd happily say sure, but it's not going to be a very typical shoot and might not be a very useful experience as regards how the mainstream works.

P

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2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

That's great, good start honestly, two good cameras ya got there. Just don't forget about audio. Separate recorder (preferably) and wireless lavs will do the trick to start with. Good picture must have good audio. 

So yea, I'd just do what I said, keep working, keep shooting and as you develop your skills, you'll find people to work with, it's not that difficult, even in rural areas outside of the industry. I never had issues finding people living in a rural community. 

One thing I'd say tho, is to spend more money making content, than on equipment. 

Outside of that,  do you think after you PhD, you'd give up the sciences and want to be a filmmaker? Gosh, I don't know if had a PhD, that I'd never get into the film industry. Part of the reason I am in it full-time is because frankly, it's the only way I can make decent money and enjoy my life. Very few professions allow such a diverse lifestyle. 

Thanks so much Tyler...and yes, at some point I intend to do filmmaking full-time as that's something I'm so passionate about...a passion I only discovered while on my PhD. 

On spending money on creating content, could you shed some more light on that? Thanks 

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1 hour ago, Phil Rhodes said:

I'd happily say sure, but it's not going to be a very typical shoot and might not be a very useful experience as regards how the mainstream works.

P

Even if it's not a typical shoot, it could be a start maybe? At least for some level of networking at least. Care to share some more more information on the project?

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4 hours ago, Oleseaden Lale said:

On spending money on creating content, could you shed some more light on that? Thanks 

Well, like you'll need to pay for a crew, cast, maybe G&E and locations to make a production. 

So putting money into the actual production (which I call making "content") is where the bulk of money would be going. Equipment is great and all, but you'll reach a level soon, where you'll have no choice but to pay for those things. 

 

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6 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Well, like you'll need to pay for a crew, cast, maybe G&E and locations to make a production. 

So putting money into the actual production (which I call making "content") is where the bulk of money would be going. Equipment is great and all, but you'll reach a level soon, where you'll have no choice but to pay for those things. 

 

Oh I get it now. Thanks a lot for all your input and I'm happy I found this forum!

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