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footage problem


massimo losito
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HI everyone!

I just shot a camera test with my Photo-Sonics s16 mm camera and this is the result…

Obviously there is a problem here ( there is big light leaks ) but I don’t know what cause it ( if the camera , magazine or someone open the cans during the shipment)

 

Few notes:

-the two different shots are different film roles, shot in different moments with the same camera but different mags

-They have been shipped together at the film lab.

-Last year I bring them home from US in a checked bag.

 

If anyone has a clue of what could happen It will be very helpful 🙂

 

https://vimeo.com/673104264/b1826ec09b

 

https://vimeo.com/673104938/2124707c3c

 

Thanks!

Max

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It has clearly been handled in light. Most likely not for very long, but if you have always handled the film in the dark the whole time (not using those photosonics mags which can be partially loaded in light by installing the protection lid over the feed roll before bringing it to light to complete the loading) then someone probably has opened the cans briefly I think.

One gets similar looking but less intensive edge exposure if loading daylight spools to a 16mm camera like Bolex or K3 in too bright daylight, though it normally gets better after the start of the roll and it does not have those 'streaks' of light being instead more stable looking.

So to me it looks like someone briefly opened the cans, take a quick look in normal light that "they indeed look like film rolls" and quickly put them back believing that the footage was not ruined by the quick inspection

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Yea, for sure the film was loaded in the light for some reason. I doubt it was a light leak in the camera, it's way too severe. That's what happens when you take raw film out of the bag in subdued light and put it in a magazine. It has to be loaded in the dark.

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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Weird colour shifts in the candle footage, it keeps shifting to green in sync with when the edge flashing gets worse. Could that be some kind of scanning auto-colour correction or would that be a processing issue?

Otherwise, yeah, looks like someone exposed the rolls to light. 

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On 2/3/2022 at 11:58 AM, aapo lettinen said:

It has clearly been handled in light. Most likely not for very long, but if you have always handled the film in the dark the whole time (not using those photosonics mags which can be partially loaded in light by installing the protection lid over the feed roll before bringing it to light to complete the loading) then someone probably has opened the cans briefly I think.

One gets similar looking but less intensive edge exposure if loading daylight spools to a 16mm camera like Bolex or K3 in too bright daylight, though it normally gets better after the start of the roll and it does not have those 'streaks' of light being instead more stable looking.

So to me it looks like someone briefly opened the cans, take a quick look in normal light that "they indeed look like film rolls" and quickly put them back believing that the footage was not ruined by the quick inspection

Yes I used the PS 400 split reels to shoot the test. Of course I load the film into the split reels in the darkness. and yes usually after the first meters the light on the side go away.  Very strange. I also belive that some one open the cans..

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16 hours ago, Lance Lucero said:

Did you tape your magazine...? I ALWAYS tape the openings of my magazine all the way up to the camera body.  See the pic below.

yes Lance, the mag was taped and the eyepiece closed..

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Lance Lucero said:

shooting BG 01

 

 

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13 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Weird colour shifts in the candle footage, it keeps shifting to green in sync with when the edge flashing gets worse. Could that be some kind of scanning auto-colour correction or would that be a processing issue?

Otherwise, yeah, looks like someone exposed the rolls to light. 

That's was also strange to me... I believe it has to do to the light leaks,no?

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4 hours ago, massimo losito said:

That's was also strange to me... I believe it has to do to the light leaks,no?

Well a light leak is simply light exposing the film, unless the light itself was pulsing different wavelengths why would it create a colour shift that repeats every half a second or so in the image later exposed? It seems more likely to be some sort of processing error.

As an aside, can anyone tell me why light leaks are orange/red and not simply white? 

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36 minutes ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Well a light leak is simply light exposing the film, unless the light itself was pulsing different wavelengths why would it create a colour shift that repeats every half a second or so in the image later exposed? It seems more likely to be some sort of processing error.

As an aside, can anyone tell me why light leaks are orange/red and not simply white? 

Not at all an expert but maybe the same reason halation is red? When light is intense enough it bounces off the film backing back up to the red layer causing it to be red.

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the emulsion is on the front side of the film base and the remjet layer on the backside of the film base. The actual film base is this greyish-transparent cellulose acetate which easily lets the light to pass through along it sideways if bright light is shined to the edge of the film from the side: the film base channels the light forward like a optic fibre.

I am sure the reason for the like leak being red and reddish-orange is because when the leaking light shines from the edge of the film, the clear film base channels it further towards the center of the frame and the first layer the leaking light hits is the RED layer, not the blue like when normally exposing the film. So the light leak hits the red layer first AND it bypasses all the other layers and their colour filters easily so one gets massively more exposure on the red layer than on any other layer.

So the light leak comes from the side of the roll, channels through the film base, hitting the unprotected red layer at full power and causing lots of exposure on the next layer, the green one. The more one gets exposure on the green layer the more orange the leak gets instead of pure red colour. Blue is least affected because it is protected from the backside by the red and green layer and all the colour filters in between AND the remjet layer of the next film layer protects it from the frontside.

So there is definitely a clear explanation why the light leak and daylight spool edge exposure is always mainly red or reddish orange: the red layer is totally unprotected from the sideways exposure from the film edge and the green layer is only protected by one colour filter and the red layer, whereas the blue layer is very well protected by both the green and red layer AND the colour filters AND the remjet backing of the other film layer in front of it

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watching a unexposed film roll makes it very evident:  if wathing the emulsion side it is not even remotely opaque but if watching the roll from the side you can see right through the film layers. the base makes most of the thickness of the film and it does not matter how good the remjet layer is on the backside of the film if it is fully transparent when exposed from sideways and nothing protects the red layer from getting the full power of the light leak.

the light does not channel very well in the actual emulsion layer but the film base is transparent and it is like a window exposing the emulsion from the least protected side if light happens to hit the edge of the film for any reason

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the same reason why the overexposure on film when the camera speeds up and slows down + stops is always white but the edge exposure of the daylight spools and general sideways light leaks are always red or reddish orange. any kind of light coming from the sideways to the film edge massively overexposes the red layer first before getting any change to hit any other layers

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First, is the film negative or reversal?

If reversal, it might help to repost the entire scene from absolute beginning (lace-up),  eliminate some of the middle, uh, sorry stoners, and show the end of scene to roll out.

The Question is:  which end is the more light-struck: Heads or tails?  (Compare timing).

Before the film was shot, or after?

If negative, examine the head and tail for weird intensity variations at the beginning and end.

If Heads, before you acquired the film, or maybe someone made a little mistake and was afraid to tell you.

Now, if Tails, is heavily light-struck,  maybe your friendly Customs official had "just a quick peek-a-boo," or

a "visitor" at the lab was curious.  That will never be known...  unless someone 'fesses up.  (grin).

 

An anecdote: During the American Revolution an especially gruesome event happened in a tavern.  An aspiring psychic was taken to this tavern (early 1970's) to see if this person would respond to the "vibes" and perhaps describe the events that occurred there.

A reporter and I went along and the psychic (in theory, without prior information)  came pretty darn close.  All well and good.

The reporter flubs repeated stand-ups. On his last flub he becomes so frustrated with himself he blurts "oh, Hell!"

The next one is done perfectly!  Now, Back at the station, I am preparing all the films by everyone else for loading the processor.  

 I start to transfer my 400ft 7242 onto processor reel when up rushes the dimwit newbee with his contribution to that day's TV history. So to facilitate his donation he turns on the light in my locked loading room from outside. Maybe the film will pass thru the door easier with the light on to show the way.  

I very strongly encourage him to turn off that light.  Things straighten out, and his film was added to the reel.

In short the only piece of raw stock (600--800ft) Light-struck was the busted stand-up my reporter had blurted "Oh Hell."

It started normally then progressed to looking like he was being burned alive ending with white-out at "Oh hell."  

Light-strikes are funny things.

Tungsten balanced film:  blue goes white first?

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

the emulsion is on the front side of the film base and the remjet layer on the backside of the film base. The actual film base is this greyish-transparent cellulose acetate which easily lets the light to pass through along it sideways if bright light is shined to the edge of the film from the side: the film base channels the light forward like a optic fibre.

I am sure the reason for the like leak being red and reddish-orange is because when the leaking light shines from the edge of the film, the clear film base channels it further towards the center of the frame and the first layer the leaking light hits is the RED layer, not the blue like when normally exposing the film. So the light leak hits the red layer first AND it bypasses all the other layers and their colour filters easily so one gets massively more exposure on the red layer than on any other layer.

So the light leak comes from the side of the roll, channels through the film base, hitting the unprotected red layer at full power and causing lots of exposure on the next layer, the green one. The more one gets exposure on the green layer the more orange the leak gets instead of pure red colour. Blue is least affected because it is protected from the backside by the red and green layer and all the colour filters in between AND the remjet layer of the next film layer protects it from the frontside.

So there is definitely a clear explanation why the light leak and daylight spool edge exposure is always mainly red or reddish orange: the red layer is totally unprotected from the sideways exposure from the film edge and the green layer is only protected by one colour filter and the red layer, whereas the blue layer is very well protected by both the green and red layer AND the colour filters AND the remjet backing of the other film layer in front of it

very very interesting Aapo!  ;)

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9 hours ago, Eric Eader said:

First, is the film negative or reversal?

If reversal, it might help to repost the entire scene from absolute beginning (lace-up),  eliminate some of the middle, uh, sorry stoners, and show the end of scene to roll out.

The Question is:  which end is the more light-struck: Heads or tails?  (Compare timing).

Before the film was shot, or after?

If negative, examine the head and tail for weird intensity variations at the beginning and end.

If Heads, before you acquired the film, or maybe someone made a little mistake and was afraid to tell you.

Now, if Tails, is heavily light-struck,  maybe your friendly Customs official had "just a quick peek-a-boo," or

a "visitor" at the lab was curious.  That will never be known...  unless someone 'fesses up.  (grin).

 

An anecdote: During the American Revolution an especially gruesome event happened in a tavern.  An aspiring psychic was taken to this tavern (early 1970's) to see if this person would respond to the "vibes" and perhaps describe the events that occurred there.

A reporter and I went along and the psychic (in theory, without prior information)  came pretty darn close.  All well and good.

The reporter flubs repeated stand-ups. On his last flub he becomes so frustrated with himself he blurts "oh, Hell!"

The next one is done perfectly!  Now, Back at the station, I am preparing all the films by everyone else for loading the processor.  

 I start to transfer my 400ft 7242 onto processor reel when up rushes the dimwit newbee with his contribution to that day's TV history. So to facilitate his donation he turns on the light in my locked loading room from outside. Maybe the film will pass thru the door easier with the light on to show the way.  

I very strongly encourage him to turn off that light.  Things straighten out, and his film was added to the reel.

In short the only piece of raw stock (600--800ft) Light-struck was the busted stand-up my reporter had blurted "Oh Hell."

It started normally then progressed to looking like he was being burned alive ending with white-out at "Oh hell."  

Light-strikes are funny things.

Tungsten balanced film:  blue goes white first?

 

 

 

Great deductions Eric.. I'll try to get back the neg from the lab and see.

It was a negative film in two different sensibility 50 D  and 200 T.

For what I saw it's a constant light leak.. from beginning to the end. I'll try to load the whole clip ( or the beginning and end of the rolls . 

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Your welcome, Max.

No question it is a constant EDGE leak.  But what about the head and tail?  Sit back, close your eyes, and imagine a can of fresh film never having been opened. Visualize loading your magazine in the darkroom, then attaching mag to camera, and threading it up--hand roll-- checking loops etc.--- everything looks good--- close door--- roll off a short burst.  What have you got?  At the take-up core UNEXPOSED film;  then clear (over exposed) film where it was threaded and hand rolled.  Unless your lens was capped you have your first images---that's it.  BUT, if the film was previously flashed the whole head will be clear--- gross over exposure--- how deeply? Variable, but at some point clear becomes image plus edge strike, continuing to runout.

Picture previous threadings--- how long, how many feet rolled from clear to image?   A major difference might indicate a lightstruck Head.

And since this is NEGATIVE that means variation in Density---black-- deep, deep black = gross over exposure.

When you get your negative back run it thru a viewer and watch the light show transitions form unexposed --to over exposed-- to image plus edge light.

Now for the TAIL.  Did you shoot the candle all the way to rollout?  If you did, then there will be no washout similar to what one gets when threading,  or (breaking off short) just little bursts once a very short section clears the aperture.

Major splash from tail tip to somewhere back up into the roll says post shooting over exposure... someone looked at the raw stock.

That doesn't tell you who or why, or get you your money back.  Post when you can.

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I think the rolls have been opened and exposed to light on both sides, one side more than the other one.

Regarding the automatic colour changes in 'Candle' this is unintended action on the part of our new Scanstation. We had not read the complete manual yet (other Scanstation owners will understand). We no longer use that button in the Scanstation software of course.

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