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My team recently bought an Alexa Mini LF and we are looking to buy a set of lenses and a zoom. Our budget is around $100k. We are looking at the Arri Signature Primes as they seem like a great all around lens but in our budget we could probably only get a zoom and a few primes. Most other high end full frame cine lenses are in that same price range. We were looking into used vintage lenses but those often don't cover full frame. Would it be silly to buy a Super 35 lens in this day and age? I've seen some nice 5 lens set Arri Ultra Primes between $30-40k. For that price we could get a nice zoom and maybe even have some money to spare. Any advice welcome. Thanks so much. 

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It sort of depends on what you’ll be shooting, whether high speed or close focus will be useful, whether size and weight matter, whether you need to impress potential clients or not. There are some pretty decent mid-range lenses out there, like Tokina Vistas or Sigmas, but obviously they don’t have the same cache as high-end brands. Signature Primes are extremely clean and sharp, so presumably you’re after that sort of look rather than more character or vintage lenses? 

Zeiss Ultra Primes are an interesting possibility, since their image circles cover more than most S35 lens sets. I think you can get down to around 20mm on an LF in 16:9. It will also be interesting to see if S35 lenses come back into fashion once Arri release their new S35 camera, which might make buying Ultra Primes now a good investment. But who knows really.

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I see a lot of people on other forums putting together FD L sets and Leica R sets and such. 

As a result, they're overpriced now of course. But the 24mm FD L, 35mm Minolta, 50/55mm FD L, 85mm FD L is a popular set. I put a set of these together myself but can't afford to have them rehoused now. Apparently a lot of people have the opposite problem. ?

I never cared that much for the Zeiss Compact Primes because the wides are so slow but on FF I think they are another story.

I feel like Ultra Primes are at the level where any sharper and they're a bit too sharp for the the 2.8K Alexa already? I could see those being a nice choice on the 4K S35 Alexa but not taking off in popularity like the Cookes and K35s have recently. That is a good enough price I might go for it if you had a Mini; but for a Mini LF it seems questionable. Even when they cover, corners might be off.

I always wondered why the CN-E series didn't command more respect. The Sumires look too heavy-handed in their "glow" effect but I like how Canon lenses look and the CN-E series looks like a nice stopgap between K35s and something sharper. I guess you'd need to install an EF mount then, of course. The 24mm through 85mm super speeds seems like a nice set up on full frame imo.

What "look" do you like? Who are your clients? Are you renting out the lenses or is it a full service thing?

I've talked with people who are more into music video narrative and fashion maybe going K35 (or FD for me as I can't afford K35) and for something more corporate going a little more modern. I can't afford to get near Signature Primes but I love the look. 

The Tokinas look great except they're huge and have a clean look that isn't for me. The Sigma Art lenses also fall under "a little boring" for me but I would take those over UPs just for the coverage. But I'd get old Nikkors over either – I just shoot as a hobby now and I like a REALLY vintage look.

The new t2.4 Canon zooms look cool depending on how they render. There's a lot of budget options out there from Chinese manufacturers that might be fine, too. I guess I just wouldn't go with S35 glass on a full frame camera you spent that much on.

Edited by M Joel W
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3 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

It sort of depends on what you’ll be shooting, whether high speed or close focus will be useful, whether size and weight matter, whether you need to impress potential clients or not. There are some pretty decent mid-range lenses out there, like Tokina Vistas or Sigmas, but obviously they don’t have the same cache as high-end brands. Signature Primes are extremely clean and sharp, so presumably you’re after that sort of look rather than more character or vintage lenses? 

Zeiss Ultra Primes are an interesting possibility, since their image circles cover more than most S35 lens sets. I think you can get down to around 20mm on an LF in 16:9. It will also be interesting to see if S35 lenses come back into fashion once Arri release their new S35 camera, which might make buying Ultra Primes now a good investment. But who knows really.

 

3 hours ago, M Joel W said:

I see a lot of people on other forums putting together FD L sets and Leica R sets and such. 

As a result, they're overpriced now of course. But the 24mm FD L, 35mm Minolta, 50/55mm FD L, 85mm FD L is a popular set. I put a set of these together myself but can't afford to have them rehoused now. Apparently a lot of people have the opposite problem. ?

I never cared that much for the Zeiss Compact Primes because the wides are so slow but on FF I think they are another story.

I feel like Ultra Primes are at the level where any sharper and they're a bit too sharp for the the 2.8K Alexa already? I could see those being a nice choice on the 4K S35 Alexa but not taking off in popularity like the Cookes and K35s have recently. That is a good enough price I might go for it if you had a Mini; but for a Mini LF it seems questionable. Even when they cover, corners might be off.

I always wondered why the CN-E series didn't command more respect. The Sumires look too heavy-handed in their "glow" effect but I like how Canon lenses look and the CN-E series looks like a nice stopgap between K35s and something sharper. I guess you'd need to install an EF mount then, of course. The 24mm through 85mm super speeds seems like a nice set up on full frame imo.

What "look" do you like? Who are your clients? Are you renting out the lenses or is it a full service thing?

I've talked with people who are more into music video narrative and fashion maybe going K35 (or FD for me as I can't afford K35) and for something more corporate going a little more modern. I can't afford to get near Signature Primes but I love the look. 

The Tokinas look great except they're huge and have a clean look that isn't for me. The Sigma Art lenses also fall under "a little boring" for me but I would take those over UPs just for the coverage. But I'd get old Nikkors over either – I just shoot as a hobby now and I like a REALLY vintage look.

The new t2.4 Canon zooms look cool depending on how they render. There's a lot of budget options out there from Chinese manufacturers that might be fine, too. I guess I just wouldn't go with S35 glass on a full frame camera you spent that much on.

Sorry I should have added the lenses would be mostly for in house research and development and promotional material for our own stuff, which is mostly centered around VFX production. Metadata is a nice option but not a deal breaker as we get the information we need from the motor drivers. But lightweight and smaller size is preferred as we are a small team on the camera side. Fast lenses would be better as we don't have many options for lights. Close focus is not a priority. I was thinking the clean image of something like a Signature Prime would be a good starting place and we could play around with filters and their rear magnetic holders to experiment with less digital looks. Renting is not a big priority but would be nice to have the option down the line.


The Zeiss CP3's do ideal on paper as they are small, lightweight, have some zooms, and even have a metadata version. I am just worried that the image quality might not be high enough. Similar thoughts with the Tokina, Sigmas, and CN-E series. We are planning to market ourselves to a wide variety of productions from indie to higher budget so demos with top quality lenses would be ideal. Cine modded FD Ls or Leica Rs could be a great budget option, I'm assuming they will have some focus breathing but that wouldn't be a deal breaker for our use case I don't think. 

I hadn't thought about the Ultra Primes covering 16:9 on the LF but it does appear they do up until the 20mm. That may be enough for us. Also the Super Speeds could be a great option as well considering that. Do you have any zooms you would recommend to match the Ultra Primes? And good point on the new ARRI S35 which could bring S35 back into trend.


I guess it would still be a shame to not go FF since we shelled out for the Mini LF but I don't know if we really need it, might be better to have the value, quality and speed of the Ultra Primes/Super Speeds and we can always rent FF lenses for specific productions. 

Thank you both so much for your feedback this is super helpful. 

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My background is in vfx but more toward the DIY side than higher end material.

I believe the Signature Primes don't breathe much – if I had the budget I think that's what I would gravitate toward.

The Ultra Primes I think would be a great choices if you weren't shooting FF. I imagine the distortion, vignetting, etc. toward the edges past the intended coverage area would be difficult to replicate in comp and you'd effectively be limited to S35 or 3.2k. For matchmoving and planar tracking, etc. You might end up with some frustrations. I was just working on a Sony Venice job shot with Master Primes in FF and it was useful because we were cropping for delivery but the corners looked weird and I didn't do any matchmoving but imagine it might be an issue there; it was at times for tracking and compositing too but also helpful for tracking in some cases since it was effectively look around room. It looked fine once we cropped but took a little getting used to working that way.

I'll just say it was sort of non-standard.

And I wouldn't be inclined to work with MPs or UPs except in 3.2k or 2.8k ARRIRAW.

But if you're just shooting S35 or 3.2k then I guess there's nothing wrong with UPs. 

Imo the CP3s are not bad. They're optically ahead imo of popular "vintage" options out there, and they also flare less, which might be why they're less popular in some circles than their Contax forebears to have a more "organic" feel. They're also more consistent lens-to-lens. However I believe they breathe pretty heavily. 

I wouldn't look toward FD Ls or Leica R for vfx tests (but that's just me) – I believe they breathe a lot too and the whole point of them is the "organic" look to the footage. I will say that given a set of K35s or a more modern lens with diffusion, I would much rather composite in footage shot with the vintage lens; diffusion makes keying and rotoscoping annoying.

The Ultra Primes do breathe quite a bit and have some distortion, though. I remember the 40mm in particular breathing heavily, having to track scale during a rack focus, and having a bit of barrel distortion too.

The Signature Primes might be a LOT cleaner. Those are.... outside what I get to play with.

I'd talk with your vfx sup more about this. I do remember the UPs breathing more than expected.

The Otus range might have potential. No idea how much they breathe. But 28, 55, 85 is a nice kit (on FF) imo.

Edited by M Joel W
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16 minutes ago, M Joel W said:

My background is in vfx but more toward the DIY side than higher end material.

I believe the Signature Primes don't breathe much – if I had the budget I think that's what I would gravitate toward.

The Ultra Primes I think would be a great choices if you weren't shooting FF. I imagine the distortion, vignetting, etc. toward the edges past the intended coverage area would be difficult to replicate in comp and you'd effectively be limited to S35 or 3.2k. For matchmoving and planar tracking, etc. You might end up with some frustrations. I was just working on a Sony Venice job shot with Master Primes in FF and it was useful because we were cropping for delivery but the corners looked weird and I didn't do any matchmoving but imagine it might be an issue there; it was at times for tracking and compositing too but also helpful for tracking in some cases since it was effectively look around room. It looked fine once we cropped but took a little getting used to working that way.

I'll just say it was sort of non-standard.

And I wouldn't be inclined to work with MPs or UPs except in 3.2k or 2.8k ARRIRAW.

But if you're just shooting S35 or 3.2k then I guess there's nothing wrong with UPs. 

Imo the CP3s are not bad. They're optically ahead imo of popular "vintage" options out there, and they also flare less, which might be why they're less popular in some circles than their Contax forebears to have a more "organic" feel. They're also more consistent lens-to-lens. However I believe they breathe pretty heavily. 

I wouldn't look toward FD Ls or Leica R for vfx tests (but that's just me) – I believe they breathe a lot too and the whole point of them is the "organic" look to the footage. I will say that given a set of K35s or a more modern lens with diffusion, I would much rather composite in footage shot with the vintage lens; diffusion makes keying and rotoscoping annoying.

The Ultra Primes do breathe quite a bit and have some distortion, though. I remember the 40mm in particular breathing heavily, having to track scale during a rack focus, and having a bit of barrel distortion too.

The Signature Primes might be a LOT cleaner. Those are.... outside what I get to play with.

I'd talk with your vfx sup more about this. I do remember the UPs breathing more than expected.

The Otus range might have potential. No idea how much they breathe. But 28, 55, 85 is a nice kit (on FF) imo.

Amazing info, thanks so much!! Will definitely talk to the team about all this. Will look into the Otus's as well. This is super helpful, much appreciated!!

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I'm not sure about stills lenses like the Otus range, or anything that doesn't come in PL or LPL mount really. Surely you want proper cine lenses if you're doing VFX and using a Mini LF?

Ultra Primes have a larger image circle than Super Speeds or Master Primes, in fact they're among the largest for any S35 lens series. I don't think they have too much distortion or breathing in S35, but it's true that you notice both more when using more of the image circle.  Most of the focal lengths don't actually degrade much outside of the S35 design area, maybe a couple under 32mm can get a little bit weird, depends how big you go. They are sharp but not as sharp as Master Primes, or indeed Signature Primes, which have close to zero breathing and incredible edge to edge resolution. 

Perhaps renting a few options and trying them out yourself would be a wise move. 

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11 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

I'm not sure about stills lenses like the Otus range, or anything that doesn't come in PL or LPL mount really. Surely you want proper cine lenses if you're doing VFX and using a Mini LF?

Ultra Primes have a larger image circle than Super Speeds or Master Primes, in fact they're among the largest for any S35 lens series. I don't think they have too much distortion or breathing in S35, but it's true that you notice both more when using more of the image circle.  Most of the focal lengths don't actually degrade much outside of the S35 design area, maybe a couple under 32mm can get a little bit weird, depends how big you go. They are sharp but not as sharp as Master Primes, or indeed Signature Primes, which have close to zero breathing and incredible edge to edge resolution. 

Perhaps renting a few options and trying them out yourself would be a wise move. 

Thanks Dom, do you have any experience with the Signature Zooms? Looking at some test footage online it seems like they have very minimal breathing as well and image quality is really impressive. 

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I've only had the chance to look over the Signature Primes. They are impressive lenses, but you pay for the perfection. 

I think if you have a limited budget it would definitely be worth comparing other very clean lenses that are more affordable, such as the Sigmas or Tokina Vistas, both of which also have minimal breathing and are solidly built. 

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