Jump to content

The Eclair NPR Magazine Thread


Duncan Brown

Recommended Posts

  • Premium Member

I'll eventually put more pictures and words here as I investigate the mags I've got and how to get them in better shape, etc.  But I thought I'd start with a simple (?) question.  What is the meaaning of the difference between the pressure plates on the two mags pictured?  Just different design evolutions?  (I have two like on the left with serial numbers that start with "A" and two like on the right with serial numbers that start with "B" if that is a clue?)  Or is one of them the "Super 16 modified" version like mentioned in the 1974 price list I've included an excerpt of here?

Duncan

 

eclair_npr_mag_comparison_001.jpg

eclair_npr_price_list_magazines_001.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know much about NPR, but the pressure plate system on the right looks like the same concept used on the SR and the later ACL. There are four little posts that hold the main pressure plate at a distance from the plane of the gate, while the central pressure plate provides film contact at the gate only.

So the film slides through a precise gap with pressure and contact just at the gate. I think this design minimises the loaded contact area on the film, so seems the best type for S16 to me.

The design/engineering of the SR version is really nice looking. The Eclair versions look  a bit less sophisticated.

On the ACL mags with central pressure plate, the spring pressure on the main plate is higher than that of the earlier single piece pressure plate. The spring pressure on the centre part is much less. Is it the same for the NPR A/B mags? Do you have them there to check?

Edited by Gregg MacPherson
better words
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
1 hour ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

On the ACL mags with central pressure plate, the spring pressure on the main plate is higher than that of the earlier single piece pressure plate. The spring pressure on the centre part is much less. Is it the same for the NPR A/B mags? Do you have them there to check?

To me, all of my Eclair mags, NPR and ACL, feel like about the same spring pressure, with two springs across the length of the plate.  FWIW my ACL mags have serial numbers that start with SA and SB, but are all of the design like on the left, with the small rectangular raised around floating in the (side to side) center of the plate.

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
  • Premium Member

I haven't forgotten this topic!  I've just been busy.  Here's an idea I had for the little plastic film guides that always fall off of the NPR mags because they're so old and the Pliobond glue gives out from age.  It's easy enough to glue them back in if they're still there, but a lot of mags seems to have lost them.  Their purpose is to keep the film from rubbing against all the soundproofing and such on the inside of the mag door.  I'd thought of various ways to replace them with plastic but A) the shape is weird (a squared off bottom part to fit in the channel, and a triangular upper profile, to give a minimum surface for the film to ride against.) and B) they need to be some sort of conductive plastic that doesn't build up a static charge, because that would be disastrous.

If you have NPR mags I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, like these pictures.

Duncan

 

npr_400_mag_original_guides_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_original_guides_02.jpg

npr_400_mag_original_guides_03.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Well I had a brilliant idea. (Actually, Eclair had the brilliant idea, because this is just how it's done on my ACL 400' mags...)  A piece of round stainless wire glued in the channel meets all the needs.  Minimum surface area for the film to ride against, and conductive so no static buildup. The original plastic pieces are precisely 2mm tall, so 2mm diameter wire it is!   I got a pack of 50 12" wires (enough for 20 lifetimes...) from McMaster Carr and just cut each one to the length of its respective channel, and glue it in with Pliobond.  I wait a day, then polish the top surface with 4000 grit sandpaper, which makes sure it's shiny and smooth, and removes any Pliobond I got where it wasn't supposed to be.

See pics of the resulting setup.  Quick, easy, cheap repair, what more could you ask for?.

Duncan

 

npr_400_mag_stainless_guides_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_stainless_guides_02.jpg

npr_400_mag_stainless_guides_03.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

This is the NPR magazine thread but it's worth pointing out that my 200' ACL mag has black plastic guides like the original NPR, except they seem to be a slightly rubberier plastic.  I wonder if it's an age thing - at some point they figured out the stainless wire thing and all mags made after that have them?

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Regarding ACL mags, only the last series (SDxxx) have the newer kind of pressure plates.  They were realeased with ACL IIs (or possibly just before, when the taller 2-part base was introduced (but still Angénieux VF).  60m. mags were just labeled 'Dxxx".

The incremental series system A/SA, B/SB, C/SC, and D/SD each introduce minor modifications to the (French-built) mags, like improved 2-roller film-path (B/SB and later) and the new pressure plate (D/SD).

I don;t know the NPR mags as well, but the 2-part pressure plate was introduced earlier than on the ACL, on the mags that bear the mention "Eclair 16 II" on the plate.  I imagine that other changes were introduced on the body and mags then, although, again, I am not as familiar with the NPR.  Oddly, there is no mention of an Eclair 16 II model in any of the officila Eclair litterature I have seen (unlike the ACL II, which is mentioned of course).

And for those who are tempted, no, the pressure plates of the NPR mags are not compatible with those of the ACL, despite being very very similar...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/20/2023 at 3:57 AM, Duncan Brown said:

Well I had a brilliant idea. (Actually, Eclair had the brilliant idea, because this is just how it's done on my ACL 400' mags...)  A piece of round stainless wire glued in the channel meets all the needs.  Minimum surface area for the film to ride against, and conductive so no static buildup. The original plastic pieces are precisely 2mm tall, so 2mm diameter wire it is!   I got a pack of 50 12" wires (enough for 20 lifetimes...) from McMaster Carr and just cut each one to the length of its respective channel, and glue it in with Pliobond.  I wait a day, then polish the top surface with 4000 grit sandpaper, which makes sure it's shiny and smooth, and removes any Pliobond I got where it wasn't supposed to be.

See pics of the resulting setup.  Quick, easy, cheap repair, what more could you ask for?.

Duncan

 

npr_400_mag_stainless_guides_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_stainless_guides_02.jpg

npr_400_mag_stainless_guides_03.jpg

Good one ! That is indeed the preferred option, introduced by Eclair in their later cameras.

Aaton also did it that way, so it must be good !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Premium Member

Next up: foam.  If you've owned old still cameras, you're familiar with light-sealing foam which crumbles or turns to greasy goo.  NPR mags did not escape this fate, though it's easier to overlook (and then wonder where the light is sneaking in.)

First, the face of the mags has a die-cut rectangle of foam in a groove, meant to keep light from sneaking in to the film/gate after mounting the mag.  All of the mags I have, have at the very least flattened-out foam which is no longer guaranteed to fill any gaps between the mag and camera.  Some of them have even worse: crumbling/missing chunks of foam.  What follows are three pictures.  One of a typical used mag with tired flat foam.  The next is one where I've removed the foam to show the channel it fits in to.  (This particular one had some weird replacement foam that was attached using some glue that turned very hard and stubborn over the years, thus the overall nasty look to things.  Normally the channel looks a lot cleaner than that.)  And last is a magazine where I replaced the foam, inexpertly but good enough.  (I'll get better as I do more.)

After cleaning the old foam out with an orangewood stick, I cut some 2.5mm thick foam into 4mm wide strips, then cut the strips down to length and carefully set them into the channels, using the orangewood sticks again to gently press them into place.  They have adhesive backing, so you just get them lined up then carefully press them home.  2.5mm was my best guess as to the original thickness but if you just wanted to get all 3mm thick foam that would probably work just fine here too.  I got an assortment of thicknesses on amazon.com but it's available lots of places.  I got it in sheets that I then cut strips out of with an exceedingly sharp razor blade.  I don't have a die-cutter to make rectangles so I did the long sides first then cut the strips to fit between those sides.

Duncan

 

 

npr_400_mag_face_old_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_face_scraped_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_face_new_01.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Then there is the front edge of the compartments.  Most of my mags have foam which looks just the like stuff on the face: hard, tired, no longer performing any function.  Some have foam that has been replaced with clearly non-factory foam.  But some are clean as a whistle, clearly having never had foam there ever.  Was this a running change Eclair made?   Or is all the foam I'm seeing there the result of technicians adding it over the years?  Anyone know?  In any event, it seems like a worthwhile idea, and it's much easier than fitting foam into slots.

I used 3mm thick foam and cut it into strips 6mm wide.  Drop it into place up against the front mounting block at the mag opening (one on each side of the mag) and cut it to length and you're good to go.

First picture is some nasty crumbling replacement foam that certainly didn't come from Eclair.  Second picture is one of the mags that clearly never had any foam.  Next is my new foam strip installed with an open mag for comparison to the other pictures.  And lastly is a picture showing how it smartly fills the gap there and prevents any possibility of light sneaking in that way.

Duncan

 

npr_400_mag_edge_old_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_edge_empty_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_edge_new_01.jpg

npr_400_mag_edge_new_closed_01.jpg

Edited by Duncan Brown
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
6 minutes ago, David Mullen ASC said:

The foam may have had a dual purpose of dampening sound...

Ah, good point!  Keep light out, keep sound in.

I haven't yet had to replace any of the three sound deadening pads inside each of the mag doors, though I did have to Pliobond a few back into place.  Thankfully they seem to hold up OK.  Dynamat would probably do the trick as a replacement but it's hellishly expensive.

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Interesting - as I'm working through all these things adding stainless wires and foam, I notice a somewhat random mixture of platter sizes.  There are big ones (400'-ish diameter) and smaller ones (200'-ish diameter.) Does it matter?  Most mags have one of each, which makes me think one is supposed to go on one side and the other on the other side.

If you put the big one on the feed side, you can no longer read the EI/EO feed arrows so it seems like that side should always have a small one.  But what a weird reason to have a platter smaller than the film going on it: so you can see a sticker.

It makes total sense to have a big one on the takeup side, if you want 400' of film to take up tightly there.  But there's a sticker on that side that gets covered up with the big platter too.

Most of these (old, heavily used) mags have wear marks at both diameters on both sides so that's no help.  I can't find any clues in the NPR manuals either.  Weird.

Duncan

Edited by Duncan Brown
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I know, NPRs came with 60m. platers only.  The 120m. ones were introduced with the ACL (120m. mag), but I don't think they were adopted into the NPR even then.  The 60m. platters work fine with 120m. loads, even on the take-up side.

Regarding foam, it looks like you did a good job on the magazine fronts.  Regarding the sides, i believe (but again, the NPR is not my specialty) that the material was faitly strong rubber, not foam.  As a result, the doors must be pushed quite ard towards the front to close, ensuring a tight fit where it's needed.  In fact, I think I remember seeing those side strips made with a slight overhang (so not a square section) under which the door fits.

Obviously, this late in the Ecliar game, anything that works will do.  But best to know what they started with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
10 minutes ago, Boris Belay said:

As far as I know, NPRs came with 60m. platers only.  The 120m. ones were introduced with the ACL (120m. mag), but I don't think they were adopted into the NPR even then.  The 60m. platters work fine with 120m. loads, even on the take-up side.

Regarding foam, it looks like you did a good job on the magazine fronts.  Regarding the sides, i believe (but again, the NPR is not my specialty) that the material was faitly strong rubber, not foam.  As a result, the doors must be pushed quite ard towards the front to close, ensuring a tight fit where it's needed.  In fact, I think I remember seeing those side strips made with a slight overhang (so not a square section) under which the door fits.

Obviously, this late in the Ecliar game, anything that works will do.  But best to know what they started with.

The smaller platters make complete sense in terms of the instructional stickers not being covered up.  I wonder where all those bigger platters I have came from, and why?

I could also believe the original lid seals were stiffer rubber, though I have yet to see one that isn't a petrified mess.  I think whatever was there was 5mm wide, but I'm using 6mm to get exactly the sort of tight pushback against the lid that you are describing, with the foam I am using.  If I can find stiffer material then I could try 5mm wide strips.

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I usually take pictures of everything just so people can follow along but this one went so easily I didn't even bother to get out the camera and lights.

I have a 400' French magazine where the size sensing lever was really sticky and basically had to be shoved to move it either direction.  I had a hunch what was wrong and it turns out I was correct:  behind the engraved metal plate covering the remaining-film dials is a clear plastic piece with an indicator line painted on it.  With age and heat, the portion over the core dial had sagged slightly, until it was rubbing quite heavily on the center of the dial.  (The spool dial has a center post that sticks up through a hole in the clear plastic, so it is supported better and not as likely to sag.)

As happens often in my life, my lifetime hobby of collecting pinball machines informs me of how to fix everything.  Sagging plastics are a fact of life with older pins, and there are several effective methods for flattening them out.  But in this case, I didn't even need to do that!  Just flip the clear plastic over, as it is completely symmetrical in that direction, and put it back together.  The indicator line is now painted on the bottom of the plastic instead of the top, but it's just as (poorly) visible as before.  The droopy portion now faces up, making it a tiny bit harder to screw the metal plate on top, but that's fine.  No more rubbing, lever moves smoothly, easy fix!

I will note that when I removed the 4 screws holding this together, one of the side ones was shorter than the other 3, so I made sure to put that back where it came from, but it's also possible someone just grabbed the wrong screw when assembling this; not sure.

Does it bug anyone else that the footage dial only goes to 390 when fully retracted?  They didn't even paint 400 on the dial!

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...