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Super 8 filming a film projected image - what to expect


Aaron Gibson

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Hello and thanks for the tech support ahead of time should you choose to reply.

I am interested in shooting/filming some motion picture projected images and want to know what to expect, if there is going to be extreme flickering, syncing that might cause the images to not be visible, or if it might actually work. I will likely be shooting 18 fps but could switch to 24 fps. I would be projecting super 8 film on a screen using a Chinon 7800 super 8 film projector. Obviously, this is somewhat experimental so I'm open to seeing what happens - but at the same time - I don't want to burn a bunch of film on something that isn't really going to work. Anyone who might have tried this, please let me know what the results were and what things I should consider. Thanks.

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Non-synchronized refilming [optical duplication] will result in some strobing of the image with density changes.  It varies depending on the refilming technique and method used.  I have gotten the best results using an XL Super 8mm camera with a 220 or 230 degree shutter opening filming at 18fps of footage that is being projected at 18fps.  I have also refilmed Regular 8mm footage at 16fps and gotten pretty good results.  Unless you synchronize the camera and projector, you will get this gentle density variation.  If you use a non-XL camera, then the variation will be faster and more annoying.  In such an instance you could use a slower filming speed such as 12fps.   Anyhow, I've duplicated Regular 8mm film so it could be on Super 8mm Sound film.     - - - To achieve full frame by frame synchronization, you will need a projector such as the ELMO GS-1200 with its ESS feature which will 'slave' the projector to a 1 frame per sine wave signal, using a simple sine wave generator and hooked up to the camera's Flash Synch Terminal.  - - - -  The image with either technique can be filmed off a small projected image onto matt white card stock, or onto thick ground glass or milky glass using a front surface mirror.  I cannibalized the mirror for this from an old BAIA large screen film editor.  Initially, I wanted to have Titles over a background, namely time lapse of clouds moving.  But later decided I could optically duplicate entire sound film reels of my own along with the main sound Track, or Duo Tracks via mixing them, but then all on one Track only of course. - - - - My first Super 8mm Sound Projector was the CHINON 7000, not all that different from your 7800, but this was for unsynched duplication.  - - - -  Unsynched, I wouldn't want it to be too long, but it works.   Don't dedicate an entire cartridge to this, just experiment in small bits an use the rest for other stuff.  Then you can decide if this method will work for what you're trying to achieve.   Of course pay attention to the usual, Focus, Exposure, Framing etc. - - - - - -  To get as accurate framing as possible, once you have setup your camera on a tripod and the projector etc.....mask off the corners of the projected white gate with black masking tape.  Then turn the projector off.....and using a maglite or similar, run the camera with the light projecting thru the film gate and check the now projected camera gate against your tape marks.  Make adjustments as needed to get it all aligned.  This will minimize having to crop the projected image any more than necessary to fill the camera's film frame.  Of course, once ready to duplicate, double check your film framing on the projector, focus, and camera focus etc.  Good luck!

 

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One point to be aware of,  sometimes projectors give a much brighter central part of the image, and this may be accentuated by the camera film.   Projectors with the old-style tungsten lamps and condenser lenses often give a better image for copying.

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You'll never capture with a normal camera without a flicker and/or big black bar going from bottom to top. You may not see the bar clearly, but it will be there for sure. 

The other thing is that projectors don't have a smooth image when it comes to brightness across the screen and/or even focus. The format is such garbage, that it'll wobble all over the place nearly all the time, unlike 16mm and 35mm. Scanning super 8 delivers a far superior product of course, no where near similar in any way to shooting a projector. You'll have good focus and brightness in the center, but as it goes to the edges, all of that will fall away and it'll be darker and softer. 

I have done this before myself and the results have always been too poor to use. Not only because super 8 is a crazy grainy format anyway, but also because super 8 projectors don't really put off enough luminance to truly capture without resorting to higher ISO stocks, which are just big bunches of grain anyway. So it's kind of a catch 22. 

In situations like this, I always cheat and shoot an LCD with LED backlight display. You can get far greater brightness, even image AND won't see any flicker. I've done this many times as well and the results have always been great. 

 

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Sharpness can be improved by adding a black washer to the front of the projection lens. So the aperture is reduced a stop or so. Projection lenses are not normally as good as camera lenses and need stopping down.

Agree with Martin use a small white matte card.   Don't know what film stock you will be using, but it's likely you will get more contrast on the copy.  To control this, place a table lamp about a meter or so away from the card, and direct at the ceiling perhaps, (not near the card) . So the projected image will look a bit washed out, though the copied result should look normal.

If using daylight film your camera lens will need some kind of blue filtration of course.

btw the unevenness I mentioned and also by Tyler, may not be objectionable depending on subject matter. A possible way to prevent it: put a grey wash of watercolour paint over middle of card, or make a similar kind of filter for projector. 

Syncing yes a much better solution. It can be done fairly easily with a flexible shaft between camera and projector inching shaft. So the projector motor runs the camera. Sankyos etc quite straightforward to get access their 1:1 shaft.

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If making a projector run the camera in sync with a flexible shaft,  I should add you will need to remove two of the three shutter blades (the ones that would normally control flicker).  And then adjust the position of shaft so that the camera sees only the open section.  A non-XR shutter camera would be best.

Edited by Doug Palmer
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