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Logmar.dk is now accepting preorders for their new precision Super 8 camera called Gentoo GS8


Nicholas Kovats

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5 hours ago, David Sekanina said:

that makes the mags expensive, requiring a precision pressure plate, rollers and gears to keep the loop etc. That's the beauty of the Aaton A-minima - the mags are very simple.

Yea, but the A-Minima design doesn't work. It's clearly a prototype that Aaton had so much interest in they released it to the public. For not much more effort, the camera could have been built properly. I've serviced lots of them and they always frustrate me because it's just poorly designed compared to their other cameras. At least the LTR/XTR and 35 cameras aren't Micky moused together. 

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23 hours ago, Nicholas Kovats said:

I would advise the select few who are spreading misinformation and claiming falsely to have a direct connection to Logmar to cease and desist.   

I think that's a bit of an overreaction lol. There's some justified criticism in this thread of Logmar's shoddy rollout of this camera and their (non)marketing. Their last few cameras had coverage from Nofilmschool, Wired, PremiumBeat, Newsshooter, ASC Mag, and yet almost nobody knew their newest camera was coming out before it was canceled!

Definitely would be interested in a super-16 camera, though I think it would have to come in under the price of an SR3 to be of any value. Maybe the functionality of a 416 with an SR3 price? And obviously serviceability is an issue.

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Fantastic picture of the man himself! So tiny. This 100ft mag prototype would sell like hotcakes in the current state of affairs. How did you obtain this picture? I also have buried somewhere a picture of Jean-Pierre holding his similar and tiny 9.5mm prototype targeting the Belgium/France 9.5mm market in the 90s.   

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20 minutes ago, Nicholas Kovats said:

How did you obtain this picture?

The picture was taken by Caroline Champetier. I think I found it on the website of the documentary filmmaker who shot 'loeil méchanique', a doc on the development of the A-minima, that I bought a few years ago.

Not a cat on the shoulder, but a mouse in the hand ?

edit:

found the source:

https://theasc.com/news/jean-pierre-beauviala-honored-by-the-asc

Edited by David Sekanina
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He actually says it ? And then he explains that by pressing the camera against your cheek, it becomes very stable. He didn't want the viewfinder to protrude much, because he wanted a camera that he can put in his pocket. What a marvelous man!

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Logmar has released the following statement regrading the Gentoo Super 8 project, i.e. 

https://www.logmar.dk/uncategorized/super8-update/

By Tommy Lau Madsen  Uncategorized  June 14, 2022

Allow me to provide an update on the Gentoo camera and share a few words about its “difficult birth” and where we stand today.

When we decided to start work on the Gentoo a little more than 8 months ago our motivation behind doing it was that that the market is missing a professional camera for the Super8 format and ever since we did our Chatham camera some seven years ago, we have been longing to make a successor which we had hoped the Humboldt would be, but sadly it wasn’t meant to be (with us as the driving force) and today that camera no longer carries any heritage from us.

In Q3-2021 we started kicking the idea around internally that we should make a new Super8 camera which would set the stage for professional users.

From the onset we knew that Gentoo would be a hard sell.

We aspired to hit a sales price of 3.500 EUR but it was quickly apparent that it was going to be impossible to reach that number unless we would sell a few hundred cameras and knowing that our first camera didn’t even sell fifty at that price level we then had to work “backwards” together with our sub-contractors and derive the sales price from a minimum amount of manufactured cameras and the smallest batch some of our subcontractors wanted to commit to was fifty so we asked for quotes on that which landed us at the 5.000 EUR price.

The trouble was that we had to buy fifty sets of all parts up-front to hit that price point.

Two weeks after launching the camera we had fifty-one people providing their details and requesting sales contracts, so we were confident that Gentoo was a homerun but eventually out of those fifty-one people only twelve converted into actual sales and it was alarmingly apparent that we would never be able to hit the fifty cameras which we had done our cost calculations based on and as we had to buy fifty sets to start manufacturing and we had promised a 6-8 months delivery time it was simply impossible for us to proceed with the Gentoo program as we couldn’t wait for customers to potentially come forward and we had to cancel it.

In the immediate aftermath several of the twelve signing customers as well as some new customer prospects came forward and asked if we could conceive making a smaller batch of cameras than the original fifty units knowing that the price would then obviously be higher, and we are currently exploring if this is an option as a one-off batch together with our sub-contractors.

We hope to reach a conclusion relatively soon in that regard.

In the meantime, please do not hesitate to get back to me if you have questions, comments, or concerns at Tommy@Logmar.dk

Yours truly

Tommy 

TOMMY LAU MADSEN / ABOUT AUTHOR
Founder @ Logmar Camera Solutions.
Lead designer on all camera platforms - proud purveyor of the analog format.

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6 hours ago, Raymond Zrike said:

There's some justified criticism in this thread of Logmar's shoddy rollout of this camera and their (non)marketing.

Zero marketing in a world where it's honestly very easy to market. I think if they re-marketed it but spent some money, they'd probably conjure up enough interest to make 50 cameras world wide. 

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6 hours ago, David Sekanina said:

He actually says it ? And then he explains that by pressing the camera against your cheek, it becomes very stable. He didn't want the viewfinder to protrude much, because he wanted a camera that he can put in his pocket. What a marvelous man!

Yes he's honestly doing what so many people do today but with monitors. It's ingenious and that style of shooting works so well.

It's unfortunate the final camera to come from that design was a bit of a travesty, they COULD have stuck with design that doesn't have much if any electronics. I think the failure point of the camera is really the reverse loading and 200ft loads. I think a 100ft loading version, using standard daylight spools, could work fine. 

The original viewfinder also didn't work well, I've tried them and it was so-so. You really need an eyecup style viewfinder. They solved the issues with light coming back into the camera and hitting the film plane, with a shutter that blocks the viewfinder, very clever. However, it's just not bright enough when shooting outside. I would design the camera with a video tap only and a monitor. I bet JP really would have loved that way of shooting. 

Oh and to the people who laugh at me about the A Minima, go buy one and replace the belts. Good luck. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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I do feel that while a fantastic-looking Super 8 camera that would have been a success as a rental camera it was a bit difficult a sell as a self-owned thing unless you do make substantial income from Super 8 'videography'. Not many do. Maybe almost no one does. Most people make a living on digital and/or on 16mm so it seems to me. Or with 35mm. If they film with Super 8 it's often just something on the side. I'm talking about making a buck from it. Hobbyists are another thing, but then again the price was very high for just a hobby.

It's not my business to advise anyone on what's marketable or not but just as far as I see it there'd be more money to make out of Super 16 and 2 perf 35mm cameras.

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13 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I do feel that while a fantastic-looking Super 8 camera that would have been a success as a rental camera it was a bit difficult a sell as a self-owned thing unless you do make substantial income from Super 8 'videography'.

Why would a rental house invest in a camera they'd rent once every year? Plus since it's an "unknown", it may not be worth dealing with. 

15 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

It's not my business to advise anyone on what's marketable or not but just as far as I see it there'd be more money to make out of Super 16 and 2 perf 35mm cameras.

A new $35,000 - $40,000 16mm camera I don't think has any merit unless it's built on an already existing and well known platform, supported by a company with dozens of employees and many service providers globally. 

The 2 perf 35mm camera idea is way to limiting. This is why the Penelope was 2 perf and 3 perf. Brilliant idea, but cuts many corners to achieve brilliance. 

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2 Perf is significantly lower in cost to run and looks just as good on the big screen as any other 35mm format. In some ways it's ideal for the big screen, because it shows a real film look better in the cinema, what with the usual contemporary digital post and projection. You can just see some subtle grain but the definition is still excellent compared to Super 16. 3 perf and 4 perf anamorphic these days, with digital everything except image acquisition, come out looking too pristine and clinical and virtually indistinguishable from something shot on a digital cinema camera.

So 2-Perf has a lot going for it.

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25 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Why would a rental house invest in a camera they'd rent once every year? Plus since it's an "unknown", it may not be worth dealing with. 

A new $35,000 - $40,000 16mm camera I don't think has any merit unless it's built on an already existing and well known platform, supported by a company with dozens of employees and many service providers globally. 

Well, I will just repeat some of what I said above: "just as far as I see it there'd be more money to make out of Super 16 and 2 perf 35mm cameras." And to that I will add: That is, if there's any money to be made out of making film cameras.

Well, it does seem to be profitable enough to make new film camera designs. Someone is doing it.

Sometimes Tyler you come across as someone who in effect is saying: "Give up now, all who strive. The game is lost"

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9 hours ago, Raymond Zrike said:

I think that's a bit of an overreaction lol. There's some justified criticism in this thread of Logmar's shoddy rollout of this camera and their (non)marketing. Their last few cameras had coverage from Nofilmschool, Wired, PremiumBeat, Newsshooter, ASC Mag, and yet almost nobody knew their newest camera was coming out before it was canceled!

Definitely would be interested in a super-16 camera, though I think it would have to come in under the price of an SR3 to be of any value. Maybe the functionality of a 416 with an SR3 price? And obviously serviceability is an issue.

No. There are jealous individuals in this thread who lie and amplify their self-worth with the recurrent theme "If I only I had been consulted first." Perpetual and delusional hubris is toxic and does not build community.  The endgame is to encourage and invest in the development of new analog film cameras. The brave few who may inspire others to innovate, design and produce subsequent film cameras and associated accessories. It takes guts and perseverance not whining. 

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15 minutes ago, Nicholas Kovats said:

No. There are jealous individuals in this thread who lie and amplify their self-worth with the recurrent theme "If I only I had been consulted first." Perpetual and delusional hubris is toxic and does not build community.  The endgame is to encourage and invest in the development of new analog film cameras. The brave few who may inspire others to innovate, design and produce subsequent film cameras and associated accessories. It takes guts and perseverance not whining. 

Nicholas!

Bravo! Welcome to the tiny club of souls who've had the nerve or common sense to call this vacuous nonsense out. 

Gregg 

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2 hours ago, Nicholas Kovats said:

No. There are jealous individuals in this thread who lie and amplify their self-worth with the recurrent theme "If I only I had been consulted first." Perpetual and delusional hubris is toxic and does not build community.  The endgame is to encourage and invest in the development of new analog film cameras. The brave few who may inspire others to innovate, design and produce subsequent film cameras and associated accessories. It takes guts and perseverance not whining. 

That's great in concept, but all the best designs in the world mean nothing if they don't have a proper business plan that'll allow them to actually build the thing. I want these cameras to exist in the real world, not just vaporware, and so some constructive criticism is warranted when it doesn't happen. This camera was not marketed at all. I google "gentoo super 8" and Logmar's website comes up first, then this exact thread, and then Google gets confused and gives up. I am very confused why there was any expectation at all of there being fifty sales when seemingly no effort was put into letting people know the camera existed. As I said previously, their other cameras got coverage from a number of publications while there was nothing for this super-8 camera. A Kickstarter, a presence on the various Facebook groups, a post on Reddit, a cheap pretty short shot with their previous super-8 camera posted to YouTube... just some ideas off the top of my head. Would have easily met fifty real purchasers.

To be blunt, the statement they posted reads like the sort of thing a group of engineers without much business savvy would put out -- and I say that out of love because half of my friends are engineers. "Two weeks after launching the camera we had fifty-one people providing their details and requesting sales contracts, so we were confident that Gentoo was a homerun but eventually out of those fifty-one people only twelve converted into actual sales" -- they were relying on a 100% success rate of converting customers' expressions of interest (requesting sales contracts) into actual sales. Instead, they needed more like 500 people to message them (which would be possible through better communication online) in order to lock down the required 50 sales.

Again, I want new film cameras to exist! And for that exact reason, I think it's wise not to mince words. Make the super-16 camera, but tell everybody about it while you're doing it. You can't leave consumers in the dark and expect them to show up when you need them.

And please correct me if I'm wrong on anything. 

Edited by Raymond Zrike
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The issue with real film based gear nowadays is pretty much just that... You can collect enough resources to actually manufacture the final products but the design work and rd has to be always done for free. 

Which essentially makes the companies kind of charity operations instead of "real businesses". They just want to help the community the best they can but it makes it really hard if even the materials and outsourced assembling cannot be reliably compensated for.

I think the customer base fails to see the situation and thus makes it pretty impossible to launch anything new for film originating workflows even when there is lots of empty talk that something "would sell a fortune if it just were available"

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