Jump to content

Questions about ARRI 2C 35mm camera


Max S. Moore

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone,

I am considering buying an Arri 2c 35mm camera from ebay and I have some questions about the camera.

Is the shutter angle 165-degree or 180-degree?

Because I found the operation manual and on page 4, it says 180-degree, and on page 22, the chart starts at 165 -degree (biggest opening) - see below. I don't see 180-degree on the chart.

Also, is this a 4-perf camera?

Can this be converted to a 2- perf or 3-perf to save costs? What is the procedure to do so?

I am unfamiliar with this camera. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Max

Screen Shot 2022-05-22 at 9.27.23 PM.JPG

Screen Shot 2022-05-22 at 9.22.12 PM.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Arri 2Cs usually have 165° shutters.  The variable shutter model (2C BV) is described as opening up to 165° but the fixed shutter model is also 165° (unless a camera was modified to 172.8° to deal with flicker). All the Arri 2C literature describing a 180° shutter angle is incorrect. In practical terms, it makes very little difference to the exposure time. See:  http://cinetinker.blogspot.com/2014/04/arriflex-35-iic.html

They are 4 perf cameras, although sometimes you can find 2 perf "Techniscope" models. I don't know anyone who modifies them today.

There is a ton of info on these cameras in the archives here. Google "site:cinematography.com Arri 2C".

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
15 hours ago, Lorenzo Firmi said:

Hi Lorenzo,

I believe you mentioned in another thread that you bought a camera from the Kamera Doctor? Could you please share yor experience and tell us about the camera you purchased? Is it running without problems etc?

Many thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Uli Meyer said:

Hi Lorenzo,

I believe you mentioned in another thread that you bought a camera from the Kamera Doctor? Could you please share yor experience and tell us about the camera you purchased? Is it running without problems etc?

Many thanks!

Hi Uli, sorry for the late reply. Unfortunately I don't have any direct experience (or affiliation) with Daniil Nevski, I just noticed his work online and it looks pretty serious. But then again, I haven't had any chance to test it. I apologise for not stating it earlier :((

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
Just now, Lorenzo Firmi said:

Hi Uli, sorry for the late reply. Unfortunately I don't have any direct experience (or affiliation) with Daniil Nevski, I just noticed his work online and it looks pretty serious. But then again, I haven't had any chance to test it. I apologise for not stating it earlier :((

Hi Lorenzo,

Thank you for your reply! It would be great to hear from someone wh has had direct experience. He sent me a message that he sold all the cameras he worked on bar a Normal 35 3perf one. I'm no technician but it all sounds a bit wild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Uli Meyer said:

Hi Lorenzo,

Thank you for your reply! It would be great to hear from someone wh has had direct experience. He sent me a message that he sold all the cameras he worked on bar a Normal 35 3perf one. I'm no technician but it all sounds a bit wild.

Yes, I recall he auctioned a couple of 2C bodies (2-perf / PL mount) from his Instagram stories a few months ago. I think they were sold at around 5 or 6K eur each, but I could be mistaken. Unfortunately there was no info on who bought them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Max - I'm not a very thorough reader of threads (at least at the moment - very, very busy doing some creative writing and what follows is simply a "sudden thought" - that I might be able to help you as regards acquiring an Arri 2C). I bought one - an Arri 2C - about 12 years ago - on Ebay - from someone in the United States - transaction went very smoothly. I only used the camera once - but it ran perfectly (I still have the 35 mm colour negative) - essentially I was an "over-enthusiastic amateur" - I do not have - as a non-professional - the resources to be shooting 35 mm film on any frequent basis (who does ?). Anyway, if this reply is not a violation of the guidelines of "Cinematographer.com", I'd be happy to consider selling the 2C to you (I'm here in Ireland) - I'll check what I paid for it - my house is in disarray at the moment so even laying my hands on the print off of the original Ebay documentation will not be easy. If I could get back what I paid for the camera, I would be happy (there's some lenses, a motor - not the original motor, 2 film magazines, a battery back and charger). I'd appreciate if nobody else - reading this reply - starts to "chuck in" a bid for the camera - I can understand why someone would do so (assuming he/she is looking for an Arri 2C) but I'm not into attempting to get the very best price. Anyway, it may be that - Max - will be able to source an Arri 2C in the United States - I understand there are a good number of this type of camera out there.

Cheers,

Stephen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
On 5/29/2022 at 4:23 PM, Uli Meyer said:

Hi Lorenzo,

Thank you for your reply! It would be great to hear from someone wh has had direct experience. He sent me a message that he sold all the cameras he worked on bar a Normal 35 3perf one. I'm no technician but it all sounds a bit wild.

Daniil (Kamera Doctor) has sold a few cameras in the US through Richard Bennet at CinemaGear, who I contacted last year to ask about the quality of his work. Richard was very positive about him, but unfortunately Daniil is from Russia. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
On 5/31/2022 at 4:46 AM, Jim Perry said:

Just to clarify - the standard Arri 2C has a 180 degree shutter. The techniscope 2-Perf has a 200 degree shutter angle. 

Hi Jim,

I know the manuals and most people online say the 2C has a 180 degree shutter, but after pulling quite a few apart and noticing that they all had 165 degree shutters I did a bit of digging and found that Arri had quietly reduced the shutter angle from 180 down to 165 back when the 2B was released in 1958, a change that continued with the 2C. I believe the new cardioid movement hadn’t been quite fast enough to complete the pulldown with a 180 shutter, and was causing some smearing, so Arri reduced the angle. For whatever reason, they never mentioned it in their literature, but it is discussed in the book “Chronicle of a Camera: The Arriflex 35 in North America”.

Some 2Cs were fitted with 172.8 degree shutters to deal with 50 Hz flicker at 24fps, not sure if these were after-market modifications. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
5 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Daniil (Kamera Doctor) has sold a few cameras in the US through Richard Bennet at CinemaGear, who I contacted last year to ask about the quality of his work. Richard was very positive about him,

Daniil sent me this link when I asked him if he had any footage that was shot with one of his conversions:

 

5 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

but unfortunately Daniil is from Russia. 

I didn't ask him about his politics but in this crazy world one can't ignore what's going on, no matter how much one craves 2perf goodness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Uli Meyer said:

I didn't ask him about his politics but in this crazy world one can't ignore what's going on, no matter how much one craves 2perf goodness.

Having followed him personally on IG for a year and also during the war I'd say that is not an issue. But I'm not exactly sure where he is working currently, geographically speaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
1 minute ago, Heikki Repo said:

But I'm not exactly sure where he is working currently, geographically speaking.

For some reason I originally thought he was located in Estonia. Maybe somebody else knows?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Uli Meyer said:

For some reason I originally thought he was located in Estonia. Maybe somebody else knows?

He was there at one point, then he visited Finland and was also servicing cameras in Sweden. Then he was in Armenia. I'd just ask him directly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
9 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

He was there at one point, then he visited Finland and was also servicing cameras in Sweden. Then he was in Armenia. I'd just ask him directly.

Daniil just messaged to say that his workshop is in Estonia!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
19 minutes ago, Max S. Moore said:

Thanks Uli for the video trailer.

Does shooting in 2-perf format REQUIRES you to have black bars on top and bottom of the image?

Or can you do without it?

It's a 2.40:1 aspect ratio format. So that's how it's shot and scanned. Im unaware of any display device that is 2.40:1 native, so yes, there would be black bars at the top and bottom to fill-in. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It's a 2.40:1 aspect ratio format. So that's how it's shot and scanned. Im unaware of any display device that is 2.40:1 native, so yes, there would be black bars at the top and bottom to fill-in. 

 

Just to clarify,  the actual film scanning has the original ratio, 2.33:1 or 2.35:1 depending on who you believe. The black bars are not in the file. Many displays can play these files correctly but not all. It looks great on an iPhone which is closer to the right ratio and Vimeo takes them fine. For some online platforms or displays  you need to add the bars to the file as they lock in a 16:9 ratio. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
7 hours ago, Jim Perry said:

Just to clarify,  the actual film scanning has the original ratio, 2.33:1 or 2.35:1 depending on who you believe. The black bars are not in the file. Many displays can play these files correctly but not all. It looks great on an iPhone which is closer to the right ratio and Vimeo takes them fine. For some online platforms or displays  you need to add the bars to the file as they lock in a 16:9 ratio. 

Correct, but a film scanner isn't a display device, neither is the file. 

Display devices are generally 4x3 or 16x9 in most cases, so not the same aspect ratio of 2.40:1, which is what you'd finish your output in for distribution. As a side note, a super 35mm width 2 perf gate will deliver 2.55:1 aspect ratio. 

Vimeo, YouTube and some other streaming services, are also not display devices. They will deliver 1:1 pixel and your display device will add the bars at the top and bottom automatically as they are generally 4x3 or 16x9, within some reason. 

You do not need to deliver any other aspect ratio, but native to the project for delivery to ANYONE anymore. No bars need to be added to any project, they are again, added by the display device to compensate for the aspect ratio not matching 1:1 of the display device, if that makes any sense. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
17 minutes ago, Max S. Moore said:

Thanks guys.

What size image will be a single frame from a 4k scan on a 2-perf film?

4K is normally 3840 X 2160.

Can I get 3840 X 2160 from a 2-perf film, scanned in 4k?

Well first off 3840 isn't 4k, 4096 is. That's a lot of missing lines. 

Second, no because 3840x2160 is 16x9 1.75:1 aspect ratio. You'll be scanning 2.40:1. 

The package resolution for 2.40:1 is 4096x1716, that should be what you'll get if you do a true 4k scan. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...