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Low-Budget Scanning For Indie Features


Thomas Beach

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14 hours ago, Phil Rhodes said:

I hate to fall into my accustomed role here, but if you're struggling to afford to scan your film, should you really be shooting film?

 

Yes...Phil sums it up. (If you are serious about getting a project done.)

As I said earlier, an artist can dream, but the artist should never ruin a project because of ego. Shoot digital with a cheap, used camera from eBay. Don't ruin a project over ego and prejudice. But...it is your choice.

 

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On 7/6/2022 at 5:58 AM, Mark Dunn said:

You're probably aware that it started out as an enlarging lens- I think it's been re-mounted for machine vision. As an enlarging lens it's designed for that magnification range. It's not "adapted for macro" as such- that term really applies to a camera lens that can work at short distances as well. This one doesn't have extra optics added.

I don't know what would be better- Schneider were, and I assume are still, some of the best enlarging lenses, full stop.

Enlarging lenses are usually mounted backwards for macro work. 

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On 7/6/2022 at 10:49 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

My lens has a 6mm "makro" adaptor. I assume that's required to work with our scanner and absolutely could be a cause of the softness. Not saying the scanner is soft, it's just not crisp. 

So, you got an extension tube. Many times, enlarging lenses are mounted backwards for photography. Supposedly better performance for photography, since the lens was designed to project. Extension tubes don't reduce sharpness. Tubes with lens, such as teleconverters or cheap macro magnifiers do reduce res. I don't know if mounting a lens backwards helps that much. Never tired it, but it is a common claim.

I don't see how it is an issue to try different lenses Tyler. Just order a few from B&H, try them and see. If no good return for a refund as you are dissatisfied.

What kind of lens does Lasergraphics use?

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Got timed out...

As far as the extension tube / ring. That is how you adjust the magnification...thinner or thicker rings. At least that is how the Retroscan operates. It came with many rings to adjust. 

One edit to the above...

Extension tubes should not reduce sharpness...unless a lens won't perform well in macro mode. You can also check your HDS+ sensor by mounting your lens of a digital camera with an adapter to see how it performs Tyler.

Have you inspected / cleaned the front and back of the lens Tyler to make sure it has no smudges?

The Retroscan uses a C mount for CTTV lenses. Lots of lenses available, but all cheapies. I use a Ricoh and it seems doable. The 2K sensor is just so-so.

One of the best lenses for copy work ever made was the Nikon Printing lens.

print-nik105_side.jpg

Internet Photo: Fair Use

Yes, you need lots of $$ for it! But if you got a M39 mount on your HDS+ you are very lucky Tyler. You can try all sort of lenses. Nikon, Rodenstock and Schnieder all make APO enlarging lenses.

s-l1600.jpg

Internet Photo: Fair Use

Or test out non-APO lenses. Tons of options for you Tyler.

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On 7/7/2022 at 9:05 AM, Perry Paolantonio said:

Rather than guessing, why not contact a company like Schneider and ask for a recommendation? You will need to know the exact size of the sensor, the pixel size of the sensor (all available from the spec sheet), the distance from the film to the sensor, and the type of mount you're currently using. 

The calculation for a lens is just math. You pick the lens based on the enlargement you need, the space you have to work with, and the resolving power of the lens, factoring in the size of the photosites on the sensor. We chose our Schneider lens for our 70mm scanner after discussing with them exactly which model we'd need to cover everything from 35mm to 15p IMAX (it's a kind of macro/bellows setup with separate stages for lens and camera so we can move both camera and lens as needed). You can easily buy a lens with the same focal length, magnification factor and model name on ebay, but if you get the wrong version it's not optimized for the sensor's photosite. There are a lot of factors to consider and this problem could be resolved with a couple quick emails with a lens manufacturer. 

We also looked at lenses from Linos, Myutron and Nikon (Rayfact), but ultimately went with Schneider. All were helpful in choosing the correct lens (though Schneider was the most helpful), but you need to give them the right information. 

 

You are lucky they replied to you. I wrote to Novoflex in Germany, in the USA...all over. Never one reply from them.

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On 7/7/2022 at 10:02 AM, David Sekanina said:

Looking for a suitable lens across many brands i found the Stemmer Imaging search quite helpful:

https://www.stemmer-imaging.com/en/products/category/fixed-focus-lenses/

For my application (recording a medium format image with a 1" sensor) I ended up with a 24MP lens from Kowa:

https://www.kowa-lenses.com/en/c-mount-lenses-machine-vision

Some sites explain, what magnification ratios you can achieve with a given focal length and extension tubes of different lengths. (I think Schneider even has it in its data sheets)

 

Wow, what a variety of lenses David!

Going by the numbers may work out better for copy work lenses than 3D photography where the character of the lens is important. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I mean one would assume Film Fabriek did this work already. Clearly the lens they choose is the optimal lens, but maybe at a price point. Looking at Schneider's catalog, they have nothing else like it. So I assume, they'll just recommend the same lens because it's the only one they offer like it. This is the problem with contacting a manufacturer directly, they are only going to discuss the options they manufacture, not options from other vendors. 

 

Haha...you are lucky if they reply at all Tyler!

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9 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Yes, it's a single element adaptor, that I assume is required for the close focus needed to work with this scanner. The imager is very close to the film gate. 

That is terrible if you got an element in the ring. See if they make M39 extension tubes and lose that adapter. Adding an element will degrade the res. Very poor choice on FF's part if it has an element in it. 

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Another thing to consider Tyler is this... 

In the wet darkroom, for optimum optical performance, we would use the next larger size enlarging lens for max sharpness. A lens is sharpest in the center. You have much less chromatic and spherical aberrations in the center. So instead of using a 50mm lens for 35mm coverage we used a 75mm or 80mm lens. For you, you would need to adjust the extension rings to make it all work. Just use real extension rings and no adapters with a magnifier element in it.

As I said...start a blog on it...good advertising to spread your name around.

"Making the HDS+ work!"

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
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Here is what is used in the scanners we have:

4K Xena with the 4112x3008 Sony Pregius (same sensor as the HDS+) Schneider 80MM F4 Makkro-Symmar has excellent results for 8mm with this setup.

6.5K Xena is a Printing Nikkor 95MM F2.8 Incredible lens tack sharp and extremely flat field. There is a Schneider which is comparable that runs in the $4K range 85mm Macro-Varon.

Arriscan uses a Printing Nikkor 95mm F2.8

Scan Station P uses a Schneider 80MM F4 APO-Rodagon-N (Or APO Digitar) 

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19 minutes ago, Robert Houllahan said:

Scan Station P uses a Schneider 80MM F4 APO-Rodagon-N (Or APO Digitar) 

The full scanstation is different. Also a Schneider, but a Makro-Symmar. And the lens in our 5k was different than the one in our 6.5k, even though they're both the same basic model. We're using a very similar Makro-Symmar in the 70mm scanner, but there are real differences between revisions of the same model lens. According to Schneider, there is only one variant in their lineup that is suitable for the sensor, pixel size, and distance between film and sensor, for the 14k camera we're using -- and that all the others would be soft if used in that setup. A different sensor or different pixel size would require a different lens. (which is why the 5k and 6.5k ScanStations both had different variations of the same lens). 

The point of my post above is that the manufacturer's choice of a lens is partly about what's available, but every one of those companies picked their specific lenses based on the mechanical and magnification requirements, the sensors being used, the film gauges they're optimized for, etc. That comes down to math, not guesswork and assumptions, of which there's been a ton in this thread. Just because a lens is good in one scanner doesn't mean it's the right choice for another... (I also have a 95mm Printing Nikkor 2.8 like the one in the Xena and Arriscan , but it wouldn't work in our scanner due to mechanical and space constraints)

Edited by Perry Paolantonio
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Yeah one of the less looked at or understood specs on these lenses is the magnification range that they work in.

I assume the lens on the SSP was chosen because it is fixed and not a moveable.

The Sony Pregius 4K IMX-253 1.1" sensor is pretty small with the same 3.45u photo-sites as the bigger 6.5K IMX-342 but a smaller piece of silicon to image. The 80MM Makkro-Symmar is great for the 8mm magnification to the 1.1" Pregius but definitely falls far short on the 6.5K camera for 16mm and 35mm.

It is pretty remarkable that the Scan Station can image all three gauges well considering the distance of the camera to the film plane for 8mm, seems sub optimal distance and magnification.

Edited by Robert Houllahan
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17 hours ago, David Sekanina said:

It's most likely an extension tube, acting like a fixed bellows, allowing a non macro lens to be used as a macro lens.

The Makro adaptor is a single lens element that is tightened onto the rest of the lens. 

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I would like to try a longer lens for sure. I can move the camera back a bit, but not much. The problem I have is the macro aspect. I tried a 50mm M43 lens and it wouldn't focus close enough. So I need to either put the camera a mile away and use a MUCH longer lens OR I need to use some sort of lens that has non-distorting macro, which I don't think exists. I do think this is the Achilles heal of the design, it's not just the quality of the lens, but also the macro aspects. 

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6 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

The Makro adaptor is a single lens element that is tightened onto the rest of the lens. 

Sorry, my bad. I misunderstood you.

Maybe I misinterpreted the image too and this isn't an extension tube behind the Schneider Kreuznach lens, but the whole lens itself:

3463633663663.JPG.39bcab30b4ed95dd26edfc5b3b518c04.JPG

Edited by David Sekanina
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20 hours ago, David Sekanina said:

Maybe I misinterpreted the image too and this isn't an extension tube behind the Schneider Kreuznach lens, but the whole lens itself:

That's not what I was referring to when I said macro. The back if the lens has a little silver ring. That piece has an optical element in it. 

The extension tube is critical, that's what controls zoom. There is nothing in the tube. 

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7 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

That's not what I was referring to when I said macro. The back if the lens has a little silver ring. That piece has an optical element in it. 

The extension tube is critical, that's what controls zoom. There is nothing in the tube. 

AFAICS that silver ring is an M39-M42 adapter, of a specified length, for the lens  (V38? Always used to be M39 on enlargers) to the extension tube (M42). The one at right here

https://schneiderkreuznach.com/en/industrial-optics/products/lenses-2/camera-adapters

 

Screenshot-2022-07-10-at-11-22-02-Werkin

I wouldn't expect it to have glass in it. Are you sure you're not just seeing the  rear element of the lens, concentric with the adapter?

Edited by Mark Dunn
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4 hours ago, Mark Dunn said:

I wouldn't expect it to have glass in it. Are you sure you're not just seeing the  rear element of the lens, concentric with the adapter?

Honestly all the times I've examined it, I haven't paid much attention since it was called a Macro adaptor, I just thought it was a converter. I will examine when we get back from our shoot later this week. 

Tho, I'm in agreement with you, perhaps we are looking at the lens. 

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19 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Honestly all the times I've examined it, I haven't paid much attention since it was called a Macro adaptor, I just thought it was a converter. I will examine when we get back from our shoot later this week. 

Tho, I'm in agreement with you, perhaps we are looking at the lens. 

There is no element in there, the glass you’re seeing is just the protruding rear element from the lens itself. 

the adapter is just a metal ring to take the v mount lens to an m42 threaded mount ? 

there are no additional elements added to the HDS, it’s just LENS > v mount/M42 > generic M42 helicoid > M42/Cmount > camera

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On 7/8/2022 at 8:05 PM, Robert Houllahan said:

When I first saw the HDS+ I thought that there really wasn’t enough space for the lens - gate - camera. 
 

Here is the lens and camera on the 4K xena I run small gauge on:

B94F6373-104D-47D7-96B6-89244993270F.jpeg

 

That is a beautiful focus rack Robert!

I hate adjusting the Retroscan. It is very course. 

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3 hours ago, Andrew Wise said:

There is no element in there, the glass you’re seeing is just the protruding rear element from the lens itself. 

the adapter is just a metal ring to take the v mount lens to an m42 threaded mount ? 

there are no additional elements added to the HDS, it’s just LENS > v mount/M42 > generic M42 helicoid > M42/Cmount > camera

 

That is somewhat comforting. It would have been very poor optical practice if they did add a magnifier lens. Now they just need to fix their sound issue. 

From what I gather, the HDS+ is a high class Retroscan and is worth about $25,000 considering all these issues that have been brought up.

What say you?

The little Retroscan gives you a number of lens adjustment rings that are like extension tubes. Don't see why the HDS+ could not have included a few rings with it for the price they charge. Or do they have a helicoid adapter on the lens to circumvent the extension rings / tubes? We need to see some close-up photos of this area Tyler.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
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23 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Honestly all the times I've examined it, I haven't paid much attention since it was called a Macro adaptor, I just thought it was a converter. I will examine when we get back from our shoot later this week. 

Tho, I'm in agreement with you, perhaps we are looking at the lens. 

 

Lens awareness is very important. You can have a good lens, that is dirty, and it won't be as good as a clean, bad lens. Send in photos when you get caught up. 

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On 7/9/2022 at 2:17 AM, David Sekanina said:

Sorry, my bad. I misunderstood you.

Maybe I misinterpreted the image too and this isn't an extension tube behind the Schneider Kreuznach lens, but the whole lens itself:

3463633663663.JPG.39bcab30b4ed95dd26edfc5b3b518c04.JPG

 

This is good, but we need to see it broken down Tyler.

Damn, that looks like a nice lens. Don't understand the softness. Looks like the HDS+ is well-built. 

Tyler, you need to adapt the lens to a still camera to take some photos to compare. That will give the final word on whether it is the sensor in your scanner or not. Adapt it to shoot macro.

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4 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

That will give the final word on whether it is the sensor in your scanner or not

No it won't. At least not definitively. It might tell you if the lens is broken, but that doesn't seem to be the issue here. 

As I mentioned above, the correct lens choice is dependent upon a number of factors, including the size of the sensor's photosites,  the area of the sensor as well as the magnification factor that's required. While you might be able to tell if something is grossly off with the lens by trying it on another camera, that doesn't sound like the problem here. Tyler has said that it's not as crisp as scanners like the scanstation, which has a more expensive lens as well as a more complex focusing/rack system for that lens.

I don't think this is a matter of the lens not working properly, I think it's probably just that it's the lens that fit FilmFabriek's budget and mechanical constraints, and it is what it is. 

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