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Aaton LTR external frequency input (milliframe controllers etc)


Aapo Lettinen

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Hi!
I have a LTR7 here which I want to make a external controller for (something similar to the Milliframe Controller) . I am totally capable of doing this external controller by adapting my existing designs for the job, but the the real issue is:

What is the pinout of the 9-pin connector on the LTR body I have, is it standard pin order for all camera models and what are the exact pin outs and what kind of signal to feed to them?

It would be great to have some kind of official documentation about this to ensure that I don't burn anything when doing tests. (I am capable of making new crystal sync electronics for the LTR if burning them accidentally but I would totally hate doing that because the camera works perfectly in its original condition and making new electronics would waste lots and lots of time and money)

So... is there any official, absolutely reliable documentation about that 9-pin I-O connector which I could use when designing the controller for my camera? I know Tobin made controllers for these and I think there were Aaton ones too, so it has to be standardized in at least SOME way...

51370858375_b0d7a80ddb_h.jpg

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I went down that rabbit hole two months ago for my new video tap. The connector 'Tiny Tim' was made by WPI, then by Amphenol, and now you can find some rare spare stock for 10$ a piece for the female socket.

EDIT: yes, it's the same connector on the LTR as on my XTR Prod

5656454545.JPG.08e540137ac37d572fb4f88b6b4e337d.JPG

Edited by David Sekanina
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i got the quote from them:

https://componentonline.com/product/299-12634/223-1609

 

don't know if they have the counterpart plug though.

concerning if the changed the pin outs from model to model, best ask Charles Pickel, otherwise the pin out function is documented in the user manual of the XTR Prod

Edited by David Sekanina
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I found this on the XTR manual, wondering if the LTR is different but the ltr I have has lots of add-on modifications which were not originally available so I would imagine at least some of the pins could be the same (I believe the XTR was already out when the LTR was modified)

52186184703_553c1f704e_o.png

Probing the signals works for output pins from the camera but it does not work for input pins because the signal is coming from the accessory and not the camera body...

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  • 1 month later...

Looking at the LTR manual, it seems that port is used by a couple different accessories-a video assist camera or the 'atelen'.

The description of the latter states it "delivers an external master frequency signal derived from a video signal, or pilotone, to the camera."

I could be completely missing it but the connector pinout is not documented in the LTR manual. If the XTR uses the same pinout then based on the mention of 'external master frequency derived from pilotone' it seems the camera can be controlled by an analog frequency signal and if it's that 2400Hz then it seems it may be 2400Hz=24fps

The best thing to do if nobody knows would be to make an adapter cable for between the atelen and the camera and check the signals on the cable to see what signals are where and what is sending what, if you can find an atelen.

If it is just an analog frequency signal then that'd be fairly easy to generate with some pretty good frame stability for very cheap, so there is some good news there possibly.

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yes the pinout is not in the original LTR manual as I guess the accessory connector was a later add on to the design and was not available yet when the manual was written.

Probing signals would be very easy to do with an oscilloscope, I could do it in 5 mins to figure out the exact needed signal coming from the Atelen accessory and could then perfectly emulate it in couple of hours without any issues...

the issue is that I don't have any Atelens and I don't even know anyone having one which could be borrowed and tested. I can easily generate very accurate 2400Hz or any other frequency from my own crystal sync boards but the needed signal level is more of an issue as it is impossible to know without documentation or a working Atelen example and wrong signal level may burn camera electronics even if the pinout would be right as there is no quarantee there is any safety measures in place inside the camera as the camera bodies vary hugely in terms of their customization level and versions.

typically this type of speed reference signals tends to be 'digital' square wave at some of the standard voltage levels which in older systems may be for example 10V and in newer systems 5v or sometimes even 3.3v is pretty typical. Wrong pinout would be an issue and feeding too much voltage on the input pin would be too as there is no quarantee there is any safety measures in place to protect from over voltage. undervoltage would mostly just make it work very unreliably or not work at all but should not break anything instantly. My guess is it could be either 5v or 10v level as the 3.3v logic level was not common back then. The camera is so old that 10v was typical in similar era cameras but no way to know without having the Atelen on hand  ?

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I did a little more digging and it seems media logic made a crystal speed control that had a cable for the aaton. I found an LTR package with the control after some browsing. Apart from one for sale on it's own I can't find anything else, but it would appear at least that there are some options other than the Atelen for speed control. AZ Spectrum says their one speed control will work for the LTR and the 16SR.

So far that's lead to a dead end of someone here in another thread trying to figure out what their 16SR wanted as a signal. I'll keep digging in the hopes I can find something, as I'm of the mind this should be documented given how hard original accessories are to find for older cameras.

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By my experience the camera manufacturers kept most of the design specs secret and only let very few carefully selected partner companies to have any kind of information how the accessory ports work and in case of newer equipment, how the digital data lines were used for controlling the camera and what kind of protocol would be needed and how it could be emulated.

I actually asked Arri about the newer digital control protocol for SR cameras last year and they did not want to disclose the information even after all these years for my company not having long enough history of developing camera accessories. So it is really only possible to find out the specs if one happens to find a friendly service technician who would want to tell how it works... otherwise one just needs lots of luck and the working original camera and accessory to try to probe what kind of signals go back and forth between them, eventually hopefully figuring out how to emulate the most important functions of that external controller.

It is after all these years when the secrecy about the camera designs and control methods really starts to bite back. It was probably a very good idea back then 30 or 40 years ago to keep everything secret but nowadays when there is very few people around having any information about those secrets and all the original documentation is seemingly burned, buried and forgotten it is pretty difficult to keep the old cameras running in the future and it is possible that entirely new electronics need to be made for them at some point because no one just knows anymore how the original worked for it being so big of a secret for so many years ?

Losing documentation of electronic systems if a very, very bad issue and it can happen on any project even nowadays. In case of old movie cameras, it is actually very rare that someone would be able to repair the original electronics if something goes wrong with them and in most cases the camera needs either completely new control electronics OR it is just put to storage and forgotten there forever. the CP16R is the only movie camera I know of where the user is given at least some kind of documentation of the actual circuit boards and components. With all the other cameras it is just "contact our head electronics engineer who died 40 years ago if you happen to have any issue with your camera" ?

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Holy Crap, I apparently never throw anything out !

I had one of those "wait... I might have something.. " moments, and I dug around in some old project files, and in a folder marked "Aaton" I found a paper printout of part of an email conversation I had with Clive Tobin 21 freaking years ago about Aaton sync.

To be an FX camera guy is to be a technical packrat.

I don't know the exact question I was asking, but IIRC, I was in Australia working on the Matrix sequels and I wanted to use a couple of LTR's as 2nd-angle witness cameras for some effects we were shooting on VistaVision plates. I think. 

 

Tobin001.jpg

Edited by Steve Switaj
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Also, I found one of those weird, WPI 9-pin connectors made out of unobtanium in a box of... well.. weird connectors.

If anybody has a need for it, they can have it for what I paid, which was probably about $30, plus postage to wherever it's going.

DM me.

WPI 9 pin.jpg

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On 8/5/2022 at 6:49 AM, Steve Switaj said:

Holy Crap, I apparently never throw anything out !

I had one of those "wait... I might have something.. " moments, and I dug around in some old project files, and in a folder marked "Aaton" I found a paper printout of part of an email conversation I had with Clive Tobin 21 freaking years ago about Aaton sync.

To be an FX camera guy is to be a technical packrat.

I don't know the exact question I was asking, but IIRC, I was in Australia working on the Matrix sequels and I wanted to use a couple of LTR's as 2nd-angle witness cameras for some effects we were shooting on VistaVision plates. I think. 

 

Tobin001.jpg

Thank you a lot, this definitely helped! 

I think it would be possible for me to test it sometime later this year with the LTR if I get it working correctly. I would love to have other sync framerates on it than 25 and I can make external speed generators relatively easily so will probably adapt one of my external control designs for LTR use later on ?

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  • 5 weeks later...
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I will make some tests with the external speed input in October or November. If it seems to work correctly, it would not be too much work for me to modify my 45-speed "VariCr External Control" controller (originally designed for CP16R) to work with the LTR as I would just need to change the firmware a little bit and make a adapter cable so that it can be connected to the LTR. I would target the price range of about 350usd+shipping for the controller and the cable.

if anyone would be interested in this option, let me know beforehand as I have tons of different projects in development and I will prioritize them based on how much interest they gain and how likely it is that I will get my own money back from any individual project ?

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  • 6 months later...
On 9/7/2022 at 10:52 AM, aapo lettinen said:

I will make some tests with the external speed input in October or November. If it seems to work correctly, it would not be too much work for me to modify my 45-speed "VariCr External Control" controller (originally designed for CP16R) to work with the LTR as I would just need to change the firmware a little bit and make a adapter cable so that it can be connected to the LTR. I would target the price range of about 350usd+shipping for the controller and the cable.

if anyone would be interested in this option, let me know beforehand as I have tons of different projects in development and I will prioritize them based on how much interest they gain and how likely it is that I will get my own money back from any individual project ?

Hey Aapo, curious about how your setup worked out. Were you able to confirm that the information in the email was correct?

I'm thinking of trying to build something like this too with an arduino.

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4 hours ago, Steve Cutler said:

Hey Aapo, curious about how your setup worked out. Were you able to confirm that the information in the email was correct?

I'm thinking of trying to build something like this too with an arduino.

Hi! I haven't had possibility to test it yet and I decided not to build the 45-speed controller just yet because there were no one seriously interested in it and it was a bit too expensive to manufacture. Maybe making a slightly different product as a kickstarter project but it really needs to be pre ordered and fully pre paid to be possible to make in the first place, can't afford to throw 5k into a project if it's not guaranteed to get at least some of it back and the firmware is really difficult on the 45 speed design so frankly speaking don't have time to write it either before the Summer ?

---

I don't see any reason why the frequency input of the LTR would not work so probably it is fine I believe. Should work fine as a hobby project if you have experience making precise frequency generators and have lots of spare time

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On 3/16/2023 at 3:42 PM, aapo lettinen said:

Hi! I haven't had possibility to test it yet and I decided not to build the 45-speed controller just yet because there were no one seriously interested in it and it was a bit too expensive to manufacture. Maybe making a slightly different product as a kickstarter project but it really needs to be pre ordered and fully pre paid to be possible to make in the first place, can't afford to throw 5k into a project if it's not guaranteed to get at least some of it back and the firmware is really difficult on the 45 speed design so frankly speaking don't have time to write it either before the Summer ?

---

I don't see any reason why the frequency input of the LTR would not work so probably it is fine I believe. Should work fine as a hobby project if you have experience making precise frequency generators and have lots of spare time

Did you make a prototype?

I'm looking for more info of how you would go about interacting with the electronics - i.e. do I give power to the 'start' pin and for ex. 1200hz to the 2400hz pin at the same time if I want it to go at 12fps? or do I just send square waves directly to the 2400hz pin without anything else? Curious to know if you've played around with the controls and how this plug functions.

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7 hours ago, Steve Cutler said:

Did you make a prototype?

I'm looking for more info of how you would go about interacting with the electronics - i.e. do I give power to the 'start' pin and for ex. 1200hz to the 2400hz pin at the same time if I want it to go at 12fps? or do I just send square waves directly to the 2400hz pin without anything else? Curious to know if you've played around with the controls and how this plug functions.

I haven't tested it yet so you will have to test it by your own with the LTR camera to figure out how it works (and take the risk if something goes wrong). Be extra careful with connections because the connector has power output pins too so there is higher potential of damaging stuff.

The start-stop pin control was described somewhere either in the manual or in some forum posts I think. Normally that kind of controls work by a floating pin which is shorted to the gnd either through a resistor or directly but don't remember what I read on the LTR

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Thanks Aapo, yes I read the start pin needs to be shorted to ground here:

Very curious as to how to control the rest of it. Measuring the footage seems simple as the camera is outputting a signal and one just needs to write some code that detects the output and acts accordingly. As for the frame rate control I'm still searching for that info. If at all possible would like to avoid burning out the boards on my camera but these are still highly protected industry secrets I guess. Hard info to find!

 

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13 hours ago, Steve Cutler said:

Thanks Aapo, yes I read the start pin needs to be shorted to ground here:

Very curious as to how to control the rest of it. Measuring the footage seems simple as the camera is outputting a signal and one just needs to write some code that detects the output and acts accordingly. As for the frame rate control I'm still searching for that info. If at all possible would like to avoid burning out the boards on my camera but these are still highly protected industry secrets I guess. Hard info to find!

 

Personally I think this kind of diy projects are not cost effective and take way too much time and resources compared to purchasing a readily made solution made by someone else, even if the readily made solution is really expensive. Additionally the features will inevitably be lacking as well. 

But as a hobby project it should be ok if the main goal is mainly about wanting to find out how things work instead of wanting to use them for real projects and needing to get them work right away. Otherwise all the time and money is used on the diy build instead of making anything useful end result with it.  

Personally I can say that I would have been much happier if just using the money for shooting short films instead of trying to make self designed camera accessories. But that is just one pov and hobbies are hobbies, they don't need to be explained :)

Just wanted to mention this because people often think that diy is "cheaper" which it most often is not and that the diy is "better" which most often is not the case... So there has to be some other reason why diy approach is used. One could say that "they will sell the final devices to others to cover the costs and time" but that does not work either. For example I haven't got my money back or other reasonable compensation from ANY camera gear project I have made so far. For about 80 projects in a row that is pretty devastating and discouraging and tells that pretty much no one needs nor wants to purchase this gear...

So either as a hobby project no hours and expense counted, OR just purchase a readily made device and go shooting film instead :)

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Thanks Aapo, I already have the 9 pin cable and an arduino so - other than potentially shorting out the circuitry in my camera - I'm not too worried about incurring any additional costs (not counting the playtime spent working on it).

Unlike you I'm not looking to manufacture units for sale, I'll just incorporate the computer and screen into the 3d printed housing of my DIY videotap/battery mount solution that I've designed for my LTR.

cheers and please let me know if you find out anything more about the 9pin logic!

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  • 4 months later...
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I am working on a modular external speed generator which I can relatively easily set up to generate suitable external crystal frequency for Aaton. The system is permanently programmed by me to run a certain camera model and is not suitable for other cameras like the "universal" design I proposed earlier.

The system will likely be available in November or December 2023 depending on how all the other projects go in the meantime and if anyone orders such a controller in time (will need at least two orders to start building). I don't want to make custom cables separately for each customer so it is best if I will only make the speed generator itself and either the customer or their regular camera technician makes the connecting cable and adds other gear to the cable like start-stop switches if wanted.

There is no display, just a fast and easy to use crystal speed selector (at least 12 crystal speeds, maybe more depending on what is available) and a non-crystal variable speed knob to make speed ramps. Price is from 350 to 400usd + shipping depending on how many orders there is.

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  • 4 weeks later...
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On 8/12/2023 at 1:49 PM, aapo lettinen said:

I am working on a modular external speed generator which I can relatively easily set up to generate suitable external crystal frequency for Aaton. The system is permanently programmed by me to run a certain camera model and is not suitable for other cameras like the "universal" design I proposed earlier.

The system will likely be available in November or December 2023 depending on how all the other projects go in the meantime and if anyone orders such a controller in time (will need at least two orders to start building). I don't want to make custom cables separately for each customer so it is best if I will only make the speed generator itself and either the customer or their regular camera technician makes the connecting cable and adds other gear to the cable like start-stop switches if wanted.

There is no display, just a fast and easy to use crystal speed selector (at least 12 crystal speeds, maybe more depending on what is available) and a non-crystal variable speed knob to make speed ramps. Price is from 350 to 400usd + shipping depending on how many orders there is.

I haven't found a suitable connector to run tests on the Aaton (those are extremely tricky to find and I purchased couple of expensive ones which did not fit so got frustrated) so have to put this Aaton external crystal speed generator on hold until further notice. Of course if someone happens to have tons of those connectors and is willing to trade them for a speed controller, then can be done relatively easily as I can just modify one of my existing speed generators to fit.

so if someone would want a speed generator like this and happens to have lots of those spare connectors, just let me know

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It is confirmed now that I will make a multi-speed external crystal generator for Aaton LTR.

9-pin connectors are NOT included but it is possible to wire the device to the camera without the original connector, see my new thread for the Speed Generator:

https://cinematography.com/index.php?/forums/topic/100347-alcs-aaton-ltr-external-crystal-speed-generator/

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