Aaton LTR serviceability and general thoughts?

[Raymond Zrike]

What’s serviceability like for an Aaton LTR7/LTR54 these days? How does it compare to an XTR? I’ve read lots of people’s opinions from a number of years ago, but I’m wondering what people’s thoughts are in 2022.

[Robert Houllahan]

The LTR is a simpler camera compared to the XTR and when I had an LTR it was very reliable.

I think quite a few mechanical parts are the same but the electronics and motor are different.

[Robin Phillips]

I think ablecine in Los Angeles will still service Aaton 16mm cameras, though I havent had to service mine since the pandemic started so I havent actually been by to ask. I think AM camera could as well. Visual Products in Ohio should be able to since they occasionally sell them with 6 month parts/labor warranties 

[David Sekanina]

4 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

I think quite a few mechanical parts are the same but the electronics and motor are different.

Not from my experience. I've taken apart completely a LTR 7 and partially my XTR prod, and while the layout and principle remain the same, almost every part is different. I've also sold a few of my LTR parts to other LTR owners, and they sometime had to modify them to make them work with theirs.

You could ask Charles Pickel on the serviceability of an LTR, he posts here from time to time, and posts wonderful pictures of camera restoration on Instagram.

Edited July 23, 2022 by David Sekanina

[Tyler Purcell]

The problem with LTR's come down to the motors and electronics. We have a lot of issues with them, it seems every one that comes in, has some sort of motor or electronic issue. 

We got the schematics from Pierre for some of the LTR's and our electronics guy spent weeks trying to repair one of the boards, without any success. The problem is the tachometer system seems to fail. Since Aaton uses a very basic tach system, which is super easy to diagnose, we've traced it down to the actual board itself. 

The motor issues, well... most of them are from corrosion. The worst thing about the LTR's is that you can't really easily pull apart the motor without desoldering the very fragile control/tach board. I've spent countless hours trying to get them apart and back together again, sometimes successful, sometimes not. 

Then you got all those damn thin cables and connectors which generally fall apart. We built some tools to take them apart, but it's still a PITA to work with. 

In the end, we've kinda given up working on LTR's. We'll take them if it's just mechanical. I can fix most mechanical issues. If it's electronics, we generally pass. I have 2 LTR's with electronic issues in shop right now and both are very odd, super odd. 

The XTR's are much better, electronics and mechanics. 

[Robert Houllahan]

Well there it is....

I really loved my LTR54 and it was a great camera for me, it was a very late one and even had Aatoncode which the Abel tech said he had not seen on a LTR before.

I am glad I traded it and got an XTR Prod...

I would think there must be some way to replace the older Aaton motor and electronics with something modern.

[Aapo Lettinen]

On 7/24/2022 at 4:58 AM, Robert Houllahan said:

Well there it is....

I really loved my LTR54 and it was a great camera for me, it was a very late one and even had Aatoncode which the Abel tech said he had not seen on a LTR before.

I am glad I traded it and got an XTR Prod...

I would think there must be some way to replace the older Aaton motor and electronics with something modern.

There is always a way to replace a motor and electronics with completely new ones but it needs tons of design work which ends up being very expensive and the specs like noise level, camera size and shape and top framerates may not be exactly the same. Additionally this style of camera needs a pretty high quality motor drive which is inevitably pretty expensive. I would expect the new motor drive alone costing close to 1k (just the single component straight from the component supplier without any expensive work hours or supplementary parts or mechanical modifications or finishing counted in yet). The parts may cost from 1500 to 2000usd per camera depending on how much custom mechanical parts are needed which leaves pretty low profit marginal for anyone trying to get any investment back from the project.

I would think a complete pretty well working electronics update for the Aaton LTR cameras would costs something between 3k and 4k per camera and a minimum starting batch of 5 cameras or more. The one installing the update needs to be a trained Aaton technician because one needs to take the whole camera completely apart to install it.

It is minimum of half year project to design a system like this if most of the software is already written and just needs to be tuned to work with the camera (may take from 1.5 to 2 years if completely new software needs to be written) and still needs lots of coding, board designing and mechanical engineering to get it working as well as needs a donor camera to test the prototypes on.

So one could calculate it being maybe a 20k minimum project and about 24k to 26k if the price of the electrically non-working donor camera is counted in and if one can keep the project length in about half a year range without it being extended or delayed in any way.

If the prices of film cameras keep rising it might be feasible. I would keep the non-working Aatons around just in case someone happens to have enough money in the future to get new electronics made for them.

One could make the new electronics much better than the original ones (one could make them more advanced than the xtr prod has) but everything advanced is always very expensive to make and thus is is unlikely that anyone would start a project like this unless the money is already there and the cameras just waiting to be converted no matter what it costs ?

[Aapo Lettinen]

a externally installed replacement motor with external control electronics would be a much more economical option. Would not be as compact and nice than the original camera but would be fully possible to make with limited resources ( I would expect a price of about 1500 to 1800usd per camera + installation work costs (work costs much lower because the whole camera would not need to be disassembled), with a minimum starting batch of maybe 4 cameras or so and depending on the amount of mechanical work needed to get it working) and would make it easier for a designer to adapt their previous designs and software to work with the LTR.

For example my 16-speed Eclair ACL crystal motor design would be possible to modify enough to work OK with the LTR.  Would be more bulky especially for handheld operating and might generate slightly more noise than the original camera motor but would still be much better than using the non-working LTR as a doorstop  ?

Edited July 25, 2022 by aapo lettinen

[Aapo Lettinen]

if someone here is really serious about getting new external control electronics and a replacement motor for their non-working LTR, it would be possible for me to provide brushless motor + external box controller packages for something like 1200usd a piece with a minimum batch of two pieces ordered. This would include the fully finished external control box with the crystal sync electronics built into the box with a display etc. and the motor provided as a bare motor without any mechanical parts. The controller box would attach on top of the camera using a noga arm and connected to the motor via a cable and connector so the controller would resemble a external display and should not disturb shooting too much.

the one installing the motor to the camera would need to figure out the necessary mechanical parts and manufacture them to get the system finished. If their mechanical parts would work well, they could make a larger batch of them and sell them to others attempting similar modification to their LTR. I would expect it costing couple of hundred usd per camera to make the mechanical parts to complete the installation so it would still be very affordable to replace the original electronics with a external system like this.

This way I could outsource the stressful and time consuming mechanical engineering part of the project and could just modify my Eclair ACL 16-speed crystal sync system to work in this application (it is not practical to make a completely new LTR controller out of scratch but adapting my existing ACL controller for it should work pretty well). It would use the same housing, display and controls than the "main version" of my ACL motor so I could assemble the LTR controllers in the same batch and just program them differently which would allow me to make them in the budget of 1200usd a piece.

I see this as a very attractive option for getting non-working LTRs restored back to working condition. Someone else is needed to make the mechanical parts to get the modification working but that is often much easier to arrange than to try to get even simple electrical engineering made, let alone making a full crystal sync system out of scratch.

Anyone willing to design and manufacture the mechanical parts for this type of LTR modification and order the first two controllers?

I could deliver the controllers and motors in November or December 2022 if at least two is ordered.

[Tyler Purcell]

4 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

I would think a complete pretty well working electronics update for the Aaton LTR cameras would costs something between 3k and 4k per camera and a minimum starting batch of 5 cameras or more.

Yea, I've got a quote to get the reverse engineering and prototyping done for $50k, but who is going to pay $4k a board when the camera isn't even worth that much working? 

XTR boards probably have more value to get working, but are tri-phase motor. You maybe able to make a bi-phase and tri-phase board, with a switch tho? 

[Aapo Lettinen]

3 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Yea, I've got a quote to get the reverse engineering and prototyping done for $50k, but who is going to pay $4k a board when the camera isn't even worth that much working? 

XTR boards probably have more value to get working, but are tri-phase motor. You maybe able to make a bi-phase and tri-phase board, with a switch tho? 

the LTR with new electronics would be worth more than the original one... with newly made internal electronics (not reverse engineered but completely newly designed ones) it would have approximately similar features than the XTR Prod. though the mechanics and optics would be a little different and it would have a oled display.

but yes it would cost approximately from 25k to 50k to make completely new internal electronics to it which would be on par with the original ones. that cost would need to be shared between the first batch of the cameras to be modified. To make it clear, someone would need to work full time for from half a year to a year to make the new electronics so the total cost of the project cannot be lowered unless cutting corners in features and making the system more externally installed so that it does not require full camera disassembly to install it. Additionally adapting a existing system is much more economical than developing a completely new one from ground up.

------------

I see the only feasible option being to use a newly made external crystal sync controller which is partially based on existing designs (like my Eclair ACL 16-speed system) and a off the shelf common type brushless motor with the camera. OR if the original motor happens to work, it might be possible to make a brushless control board able to control the original motor... though it is much easier to use a motor the new crystal sync system is already designed and optimized for and just make small mechanical modifications to the camera to allow using a different type of motor on it. Brushless controllers are a real PITA to get working correctly and to find a suitable model of, especially nowadays when the component deficiency has fully kicked in. Basically one has to select a bldc controller which is possible to get and use and choose a bldc motor suitable for that controller. then adjust the crystal sync system to be compatible with the bldc controller and the motor type.... very counter intuitive but what can one do if certain parts have 2 year lead time and so on...

[Tyler Purcell]

40 minutes ago, aapo lettinen said:

I see the only feasible option being to use a newly made external crystal sync controller which is partially based on existing designs (like my Eclair ACL 16-speed system) and a off the shelf common type brushless motor with the camera.

You'd have to change the motor as well. No way could you make it work with the Aaton motor. But that's not the end of the world. Perhaps a board AND motor upgrade may actually work. 

[Robert Houllahan]

12 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Yea, I've got a quote to get the reverse engineering and prototyping done for $50k, but who is going to pay $4k a board when the camera isn't even worth that much working?

There are allot of off the shelf motion control systems now and a XTR is worth $25-30K and 416's are worth 3-5x that.

 

[David Sekanina]

To fit into an LTR/XTR I'd start with a maxon EC 60 flat pancake motor (or one of their frameless ones, which are based on the flat), with added Hall sensor and MILE 1024 cpt encoder and an epos4 Module 50/5 (to do the silent sinus commutation instead of block commutation of their Escon controllers) and build the rest of the function into a new motherboard that takes the epos module board. No Chinese crap.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by David Sekanina

[David Sekanina]

If you struggle for space you might also go with their new EPOS4 Micro 24-5 controller

Edited July 26, 2022 by David Sekanina

[Sean Cheung]

Wonder if any of you could weigh in on my question. I have what I believed to be an Aaton LTR7 (early model 440) which after being overhauled is running beautifully. I was told by the tech that it does up to all its speeds up to 32fps and only sync at 25fps (fine with that being in Europe).

However I noticed that on the fps dial there appears to be a 54fps setting (the only speed setting engraving not filled with paint) and I wonder whether it's just there because that's how they made the part originally or whether my camera will actually run at 54fps.

It does turn on that speed and it's definitely the loudest one of all, whether it's running at 54fps I have no idea, and I also don't want to damage the camera if it's not got film in it and/or indeed set up to run at that speed.

I'll be running my first test roll soon so I guess I'll try it sparingly, but would love to know if anyone has any insight into this.

Thanks in advance!

[Tyler Purcell]

2 hours ago, Sean Cheung said:

However I noticed that on the fps dial there appears to be a 54fps setting (the only speed setting engraving not filled with paint) and I wonder whether it's just there because that's how they made the part originally or whether my camera will actually run at 54fps.

 

Aaton's were regularly sent back to France for upgrades, so even if the "model" was lacking features from the factory, they were generally upgraded with newer electronics and motors at minimal. It won't hurt anything to try the setting.

[Sean Cheung]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:22 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

Aaton's were regularly sent back to France for upgrades, so even if the "model" was lacking features from the factory, they were generally upgraded with newer electronics and motors at minimal. It won't hurt anything to try the 

 Thanks Tyler, that does sound plausible. Fingers crossed!

[Mark Dunn]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:18 AM, Sean Cheung said:

Wonder if any of you could weigh in on my question. I have what I believed to be an Aaton LTR7 (early model 440) which after being overhauled is running beautifully. I was told by the tech that it does up to all its speeds up to 32fps and only sync at 25fps (fine with that being in Europe).

However I noticed that on the fps dial there appears to be a 54fps setting (the only speed setting engraving not filled with paint) and I wonder whether it's just there because that's how they made the part originally or whether my camera will actually run at 54fps.

It does turn on that speed and it's definitely the loudest one of all, whether it's running at 54fps I have no idea, and I also don't want to damage the camera if it's not got film in it and/or indeed set up to run at that speed.

I'll be running my first test roll soon so I guess I'll try it sparingly, but would love to know if anyone has any insight into this.

Thanks in advance!

There's an app called "video tachometer" that would get you the frame rate by freezing the mirror or claw movement. But I'm not sure you should run that fast without film. Maybe a loading/scratch test roll? I sell them!

[Gerard Dalton]

On 7/23/2022 at 4:00 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

The problem with LTR's come down to the motors and electronics. We have a lot of issues with them, it seems every one that comes in, has some sort of motor or electronic issue. 

We got the schematics from Pierre for some of the LTR's and our electronics guy spent weeks trying to repair one of the boards, without any success. The problem is the tachometer system seems to fail. Since Aaton uses a very basic tach system, which is super easy to diagnose, we've traced it down to the actual board itself. 

The motor issues, well... most of them are from corrosion. The worst thing about the LTR's is that you can't really easily pull apart the motor without desoldering the very fragile control/tach board. I've spent countless hours trying to get them apart and back together again, sometimes successful, sometimes not. 

Then you got all those damn thin cables and connectors which generally fall apart. We built some tools to take them apart, but it's still a PITA to work with. 

In the end, we've kinda given up working on LTR's. We'll take them if it's just mechanical. I can fix most mechanical issues. If it's electronics, we generally pass. I have 2 LTR's with electronic issues in shop right now and both are very odd, super odd. 

The XTR's are much better, electronics and mechanics. 

Hi, I’m having an issue with a LTR and you sound like you have enough AATON knowledge and experience to help me out.

Any idea what’s causing my Camera to keep running after the power has been turned off?
 

The shutter just flutters non stop and doesn’t stop until I remove the battery.

The camera had been running fine up until yesterday when I tried to put a mag on and run some film through it

[Tyler Purcell]

31 minutes ago, Gerard Dalton said:

Hi, I’m having an issue with a LTR and you sound like you have enough AATON knowledge and experience to help me out.

Any idea what’s causing my Camera to keep running after the power has been turned off?

Usually that's the beginning of a bad board. Can you email me a video info@narrowgaugefilms.com

[Aapo Lettinen]

I can make new control electronics to the LTR sometime but someone has to donate me a mechanically working LTR body for free, I wont rip my own working camera apart to take dimensioms from it ? I just need a extra camera body, I have mags and other stuff here. Final update electronics  would cost about from 3k to 4k per camera + installation work and would have better features than the original ones, making it closer to xtr prod in electronic features. Takes from 1 to 2 years to complete

Edited February 10 by Aapo Lettinen

[David Sekanina]

deleted

Edited February 10 by David Sekanina

[Gerard Dalton]

On 2/10/2024 at 4:02 AM, Aapo Lettinen said:

I can make new control electronics to the LTR sometime but someone has to donate me a mechanically working LTR body for free, I wont rip my own working camera apart to take dimensioms from it ? I just need an extra camera body, I have mags and other stuff here. Final update electronics  would cost about from 3k to 4k per camera + installation work and would have better features than the original ones, making it closer to xtr prod in electronic features. Takes from 1 to 2 years to complete

Is this a solution to a major electrical problem or what you suggest I’ll need to get done?
 

In my case, I don’t think fixing a LTR for 3k-4k is smart when you could find another one for the same price or less.

[Aapo Lettinen]

1 hour ago, Gerard Dalton said:

Is this a solution to a major electrical problem or what you suggest I’ll need to get done?
 

In my case, I don’t think fixing a LTR for 3k-4k is smart when you could find another one for the same price or less.

there has been talk of the difficult servicing of original Aaton electronics and in general it makes more sense to replace all electronics in a device with completely new ones if there is enough aging and malfunctioning involved. everything electrical breaks up eventually, it just takes longer if it has been well made back then instead of being general consumer junk like cheaper 8mm cameras might be.

So the idea is to replace EVERYTHING electrical including the motor drive itself. Makes no sense to save some part of the old system because it creates potential compatibility issues and that old original part would be the exact part breaking up next which is just asking for problems. Mechanics are too expensive to redesign and replace so camera mechanics need to be kept as is.

Of course one could buy a new LTR if the old one breaks but how long the new one might manage before generating issues too? and it would still have the old boring features (only one built-in crystal speed of either 24 or 25 , no display, etc)