Jump to content

Why hello, Miss Penelope...


Keith Mottram

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 75
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Premium Member

How is it silly? So far, what little there has been written about the camera, including statements from Aaton reps seem to indicate that the 4-perf movement will not be a part of the system. Where did you read/hear about the 4-perf movement being available in Penelope? 4-perf would certainly make the camera the ultimate in versatility...

 

JB

 

I'm afraid this whole talk of giving up anamorphic is just plain silly. As has been noted, there will be a 4perf movement available.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
How is it silly? So far, what little there has been written about the camera, including statements from Aaton reps seem to indicate that the 4-perf movement will not be a part of the system. Where did you read/hear about the 4-perf movement being available in Penelope? 4-perf would certainly make the camera the ultimate in versatility...

Well you answered your own question here. It would be silly not to offer a 4 perf movement, since otherwise they'd take themselves out of anamorphic shooting. It makes much more business sense to make the camera as versatile as possible.

 

 

Do 1.42:1 optics exists? What is he talking about?

David mentioned some time ago that Panavision is developing such lenses. It makes sense, since it gives abigger negative than shooting straight Super 35.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
Well you answered your own question here. It would be silly not to offer a 4 perf movement, since otherwise they'd take themselves out of anamorphic shooting. It makes much more business sense to make the camera as versatile as possible.

 

No, no, no. I was referring to your suggestion that "this whole talk of giving up anamorphic is just plain silly. As has been noted, there will be a 4perf movement available.".

 

Since Aaton had mentioned that they were dropping the format with Penelope, discussion on the matter makes perfect sense. And I'm still interested to know where you got the info that the camera will be offering 4-perf which, in effect, would not make the camera "silly" to you after all! So, where did you read/hear this?

 

Even if Penenope offers only 3 and 2 perf movement, it would not be a dealbreaker for me and I don't think it would make the camera silly. No camera can be the perfect camera, and althoug the addition of the 4-perf movement would make the camera more versatile, it isn't really what I'm looking for in a system that can only handle 400 foot mags (I don't think they're going to make 1000 footers for this camera). They are targetting a market that is not going to be shooting anamorphic 4-perf or doing 4-perf contact pipeline. That is still a very significant market that is going to grow even larger as more and more people move to DIs as their pipeline route.

 

JB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
No, no, no. I was referring to your suggestion that "this whole talk of giving up anamorphic is just plain silly. As has been noted, there will be a 4perf movement available.".

I believe it was Thomas who mentioned that there would be a 4 perf movement available, as a favor to the Chinese market (perhaps he can chime in here).

 

But totally independently whether there will a 4 perf movement available or not, the idea of creating a modern 35mm camera that does not support 4 perf is not a good one. Such a camera cannot be used with anamorphic or even academy. Furthermore it forces you to do either an optical (3perf to 4perf) or a digital conversion if you want to have a print of your film. So people who shoot 1.85 are penalized as well, since even simple contact printing from 4perf to 4perf (which is the easiest way to print and which every single lab in the world is set up for) is not possible.

 

And really, Aaton have been making 4perf movements for decades now, I really don't see the point of potentionally dropping it now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
Either one of us is getting their math wrong. The lens should be 1.33:1 not 1.42:1.

 

1.42 x 1.66 = ~2.36

 

I guess they are they talking about doing a 1.42 squeeze over a 1.66 area on the super 35 neg.

 

???

 

JB

Edited by Jonathan Benny
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
I believe it was Thomas who mentioned that there would be a 4 perf movement available, as a favor to the Chinese market (perhaps he can chime in here).

 

Yes, it would be good to get some clarification on this.

 

But totally independently whether there will a 4 perf movement available or not, the idea of creating a modern 35mm camera that does not support 4 perf is not a good one. Such a camera cannot be used with anamorphic or even academy. Furthermore it forces you to do either an optical (3perf to 4perf) or a digital conversion if you want to have a print of your film. So people who shoot 1.85 are penalized as well, since even simple contact printing from 4perf to 4perf (which is the easiest way to print and which every single lab in the world is set up for) is not possible.

 

I think it makes perfect sense. With DIs being the present and the future, this camera will most likely be cutting-edge. With the amount of productions/tv product being shot on super 16 and super 35 already, it is not suprising that a camera manufacturer would consider targeting their product specifically to those who use the formats as Aaton does regularly.

 

JB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
I think it makes perfect sense.

Oh really? This is not the case of an either/or situation. Since offering a 4 perf movement does not exclude also offering a 3 perf and 2 perf movement I fail to see your logic here. As far as I'm concerned not offering a 4 perf movement limits the use of the camera, which does not make much sense from a business point of view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
Oh really? This is not the case of an either/or situation. Since offering a 4 perf movement does not exclude also offering a 3 perf and 2 perf movement I fail to see your logic here. As far as I'm concerned not offering a 4 perf movement limits the use of the camera, which does not make much sense from a business point of view.

 

<g> Yes, really.

 

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this.

 

Aaton, like many companies around the world, has elected to target a specific product to a specific market within a particular industry. This happens all the time in car manufacturing, computers, food and service industries etc. Clearly they have figured that the market within the motion picture industry that currently utilizes super 16/35 will be interested in such a product and can support it. Even if were to make the camera more versatile, offering 4-perf to this group makes little sense if it increases the price of the product to them and/or if they (apparently) are not living in China.

 

Perhaps Aaton should make a camera that can instantly shoot 65mm (horizontal/vertical), anamorphic 35, super 35, regular 35, 2,3,4 perf, super 16, regular 16, super 8 and 9.5mm<g> and has every possible mount. Would that satisfy you?

 

My point is that a camera that is dedicated to 2 and 3 perf shooting should not be discarded as a silly concept. There should be enough demand out there as things continue to evolve as they do. And also that discussion about aaton dropping 4-perf in Penelope shouldn't be viewed as silly since there has only been a vague reference to 4-perf models possibly being targeted to the "Chinese market" (and that hasn't even been confirmed as of yet).

 

There is a definite (and unfortunate) possability that one day anamorphic 4-perf shooting will be rendered close to obsolete as a result of developing technology in film cameras and post-production. Not silly at all. Quite a valid discussion, actually.

 

JB

 

 

 

 

 

 

There may be other factors, from either a technical or pricing standpoint, as far as 4-perf not being available on this particular camera.

 

Another possible factor: I haven't heard if this camera will have a 1000' mag (unlikely, given aaton's record with 1000' mags). 2 and 3 perf shooting is an attractive combination with a system that might only utilize 400' mags.

 

JB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Hi,

 

I am fairly sure when you come to order a camera from Aaton they will provide a 4 perf gate if you want one! As cameras will be made to order it won't be an issue! They offered 3 perf gates for many years while selling very few!

 

A working example has not yet been shown!

 

Just my 2 euro cents.

 

Stephen

 

 

<g> Yes, really.

 

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this.

 

Aaton, like many companies around the world, has elected to target a specific product to a specific market within a particular industry. This happens all the time in car manufacturing, computers, food and service industries etc. Clearly they have figured that the market within the motion picture industry that currently utilizes super 16/35 will be interested in such a product and can support it. Even if were to make the camera more versatile, offering 4-perf to this group makes little sense if it increases the price of the product to them and/or if they (apparently) are not living in China.

 

Perhaps Aaton should make a camera that can instantly shoot 65mm (horizontal/vertical), anamorphic 35, super 35, regular 35, 2,3,4 perf, super 16, regular 16, super 8 and 9.5mm<g> and has every possible mount. Would that satisfy you?

 

My point is that a camera that is dedicated to 2 and 3 perf shooting should not be discarded as a silly concept. There should be enough demand out there as things continue to evolve as they do. And also that discussion about aaton dropping 4-perf in Penelope shouldn't be viewed as silly since there has only been a vague reference to 4-perf models possibly being targeted to the "Chinese market" (and that hasn't even been confirmed as of yet).

 

There is a definite (and unfortunate) possability that one day anamorphic 4-perf shooting will be rendered close to obsolete as a result of developing technology in film cameras and post-production. Not silly at all. Quite a valid discussion, actually.

 

JB

Another possible factor: I haven't heard if this camera will have a 1000' mag (unlikely, given aaton's record with 1000' mags). 2 and 3 perf shooting is an attractive combination with a system that might only utilize 400' mags.

 

JB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My point is that a camera that is dedicated to 2 and 3 perf shooting should not be discarded as a silly concept. There should be enough demand out there as things continue to evolve as they do. And also that discussion about aaton dropping 4-perf in Penelope shouldn't be viewed as silly since there has only been a vague reference to 4-perf models possibly being targeted to the "Chinese market" (and that hasn't even been confirmed as of yet).

Okay.

 

I give you an "as accurate as I could" transalation of the interview of JP Beauviala when he talks about eventual modifications on the Penelope.

Interviewer (Benjamin B) - We didn't talk much [during this interview] about the 3 perf thing, I know it's your hobby-horse regarding the future of the film cinema...

 

Jean pierre Beauviala - The answer of Aäton is clear : Penelope will perform only 2 or 3 perf even if it means making some modifications for the chinese and a few others addicted fellows to 4 perf.

 

But just keep in mind that the spirit of Aäton is proposing. And the Penelope is still an advanced prototype...

 

So, Jonathan, Aäton is in Grenoble (East-South of France), 3 hours by train from Paris, they are very freindly and open mind people. If you want to see and talk about the camera, you won't make them more happier ! They helped me on my last short film (shot in super 35 mm ...4 perf, damned labs) but I'll tell you more about that story later. It's time to sleep for me, now.

 

Thomas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Merci Thomas,

 

I'm in France for 2 months this summer and will contact Aaton to see if I can discuss the camera and/or see it in person. I have to check my schedule, but I might possibly be quite close to Grenoble at one point.

 

So far I'm loving the concept and I see it as definitely a step forward consistant with what is happening in the film industry around us.

 

Thanks and regards,

 

AJB

 

 

Okay.

 

I give you an "as accurate as I could" transalation of the interview of JP Beauviala when he talks about eventual modifications on the Penelope.

Interviewer (Benjamin B) - We didn't talk much [during this interview] about the 3 perf thing, I know it's your hobby-horse regarding the future of the film cinema...

 

Jean pierre Beauviala - The answer of Aäton is clear : Penelope will perform only 2 or 3 perf even if it means making some modifications for the chinese and a few others addicted fellows to 4 perf.

 

But just keep in mind that the spirit of Aäton is proposing. And the Penelope is still an advanced prototype...

 

So, Jonathan, Aäton is in Grenoble (East-South of France), 3 hours by train from Paris, they are very freindly and open mind people. If you want to see and talk about the camera, you won't make them more happier ! They helped me on my last short film (shot in super 35 mm ...4 perf, damned labs) but I'll tell you more about that story later. It's time to sleep for me, now.

 

Thomas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
My point is that a camera that is dedicated to 2 and 3 perf shooting should not be discarded as a silly concept. There should be enough demand out there as things continue to evolve as they do. And also that discussion about aaton dropping 4-perf in Penelope shouldn't be viewed as silly since there has only been a vague reference to 4-perf models possibly being targeted to the "Chinese market" (and that hasn't even been confirmed as of yet).

I find it very odd that someone is so happy to have his options of formats reduced by a camera manufacturer who does not plan to support what is not only the most common format (4 perf), but also the highest quality one (anamorphic) and even seem to consider this a step forward for some obscure reason. I for one value equipment that is versatile, because it gives me more creative options.

 

As for anamorphic dissapearing, as long as we shoot on 35mm there will always be 4 perf cameras available (in fact most of the exisiting cameras are only 4 perf), so one always has the option of shooting anamorphic. Also one can even put anamorphic lenses on the current crop of HD cameras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
I find it very odd that someone is so happy to have his options of formats reduced by a camera manufacturer who does not plan to support what is not only the most common format (4 perf), but also the highest quality one (anamorphic) and even seem to consider this a step forward for some obscure reason.

 

I don't see the options being reduced by the camera. I see the camera itself as being another option providing just as many creative possabilities as anamorphic shooting. And it makes perfect sense to me why such a camera would exist, why there is a market for it, and why it is a progressive concept in today's filmmaking world.

 

Then again, there's always the Cameflex.

 

AJB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest John Lasher

Max, no one's holding a gun to anyone's head and saying, :angry: "You must use this camera, and this camera only."

 

This is a product which is targeted at a sub-section of the market: people who shoot 2-perf and 3-perf. I'm sure that Aaton will continue to offer the 35-III for those who prefer to shoot 4-perf. (Not to mention continued availability of other, non-Aaton, 4-perf models.)

 

For budget-conscious filmmakers, 4-perf 35mm with a contact print remains the most cost-effective option where a theatrical release is concerned. No one is desputing that as far as I can tell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

All I'm saying is that I'd rather have a camera that does 4 perf, 3 perf and 2 perf. If Aaton offered these 3 options, they'd have an incredibly versatile camera, especially since it is the only modern camera that can do 2 perf. Rental houses would fall all over themselves to get this camera because of this feature. As it stands now, with only 3 perf and 2 perf, the camera is still interesting, but not as good as it could have been.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
All I'm saying is that I'd rather have a camera that does 4 perf, 3 perf and 2 perf. If Aaton offered these 3 options, they'd have an incredibly versatile camera, especially since it is the only modern camera that can do 2 perf. Rental houses would fall all over themselves to get this camera because of this feature. As it stands now, with only 3 perf and 2 perf, the camera is still interesting, but not as good as it could have been.

 

Hi,

 

I guess the camera will require 3 gates, so there may not be that much of a cost saving over owning 1 body per gate.

When I spoke to Aaton at IBC converting 2 to 3 perf was going to require service personal, not a camera assistant, taking less than 1 hour to complete.

 

Stephen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Do you know any other specs? Fps, noise level? I take it it won't have an electronic shutter?

 

Righto.

 

It's still in prototype.... still plastic gears and what not...

 

Two of the main goals are to make it quieter than the Aaton 35-III and less expensive. With price in mind, I don't think there are any plans to install an electronic shutter. They've simplified the magazines quite a bit though.

 

Regards,

Nathan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I finaly found a picture of the Penelope exposed at NAB 2006 (don't you -lucky guys that went to the nab- ever take pictures of what you see !! :rolleyes: Can't be true, come on, share it !) on that DP's blog.

aaton2.jpg

 

As expected, the video assist looks like what we can already see on the xtrprod2, with "a twin battery power supply prevents accessories and lens control motors from interfering with the camera's power requirements"

 

Nice !

 

 

Thomas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Forum Sponsors

BOKEH RENTALS

Film Gears

Metropolis Post

New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment

Visual Products

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

CINELEASE

Cinematography Books and Gear



×
×
  • Create New...