Jump to content

Beaulieu 6008 Jumpy frame


Tyler Purcell

Recommended Posts

  • Premium Member

So after doing a lot of tests recently, I decided to actually shoot an entire documentary mostly on super 8. My Elmo 1012S has worked well, but the lens isn't very crisp and the stability was never any good, even after spending a lot of work to get it good. So I decided to buy a better/higher end Super 8 camera with a better lens and hopefully better stability. 

I bought a 6008 from a reputable dealer used and it looks brand new. They said it was serviced and it had clearly been gone through, all the foam on the door is new and such, it's also very clean. 

Our first shoot results came back yesterday and it's very disappointing. Nearly all of the issues my Elmo has, this cameras has, outside of course of the crisper lens on the 6008. 

So I'm wondering what you guys think and if this is "normal" and/or an easy fix. If this were an Aaton or something, I'd be focused on the lateral film rail and any looseness in the pulldown assembly. I put a strobe on the pulldown, didn't see it jump, but its so small, it's hard to tell. 

Anyway, let me know what you think. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the problem is the same as with your well made ELMO 1012, then the likely culprit these days is the cartridge.  KODAK has had a LOT of cartridge film transport issues over the past couple years......just way too much tension on the supply side when they are loaded at the factory.  I have opened some up, reloaded the film with sufficient slack so the film supply rotates around the stationary hub smoothly, and no issues.  

   Another thing that is quite helpful, for me anyways, is that between each cartridge, I wipe the film gate with silicone.  I use a soft white cotton flannel cloth that I have sprayed with Silicone spray [the type that doesn't harm plastics!], let it sit out for some time to allow all the propellant liquid to evaporate, and then keep this in a small zip lock bag.  I wipe the film gate and quides between cartridges, and even wipe the surface of the exposed film in the cartridge. I also check to see if there is too much film tension in the cartridge before I use it.    I depress the cartridge pressure plate with a small screwdriver in the wells so as not to mar the parts that touch the film, and then pull the film downward with a spare finger.  It should come down easily and if not, the film is too doggone tight!   Any film pull down, I then wind the core to take up that slack.

   As most people know or should know....Super 8mm cartridge film actually glides thru a narrow channel in the film gate of the cameras, one created by the gate, where by the cartridge pressure plate rests firmly on small nibs.  There isn't any high pressure on the film itself, actually it's usually gentle unless the film has a very thick film base, such as FOMA R-100, then there's more gate tension from pressure in the than small gap.  Some film unsteadiness is inherent in the design of the Super 8mm format, due to the cartridges, and the location of the pull down claw.  However, a properly working camera and a smooth running load of film in a cartridge should allow quite a steady image.....not perfect, but good.  

 Double check all variables, and IF the cartridge, let KODAK know.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am using my cartridges from stock. Mostly. How real are these troubles with today Kodak cartridges? Haven't they found the problem yet and resolved it?

The cause of super-8 jitter is either the cartridge is feeding to difficult or the pick-up drive of the camera has its friction too tight. Or are there other causes?

 

Edited by Andries Molenaar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Martin Baumgarten said:

If the problem is the same as with your well made ELMO 1012, then the likely culprit these days is the cartridge.  KODAK has had a LOT of cartridge film transport issues over the past couple years......just way too much tension on the supply side when they are loaded at the factory.  I have opened some up, reloaded the film with sufficient slack so the film supply rotates around the stationary hub smoothly, and no issues.  

   Another thing that is quite helpful, for me anyways, is that between each cartridge, I wipe the film gate with silicone.  I use a soft white cotton flannel cloth that I have sprayed with Silicone spray [the type that doesn't harm plastics!], let it sit out for some time to allow all the propellant liquid to evaporate, and then keep this in a small zip lock bag.  I wipe the film gate and quides between cartridges, and even wipe the surface of the exposed film in the cartridge. I also check to see if there is too much film tension in the cartridge before I use it.    I depress the cartridge pressure plate with a small screwdriver in the wells so as not to mar the parts that touch the film, and then pull the film downward with a spare finger.  It should come down easily and if not, the film is too doggone tight!   Any film pull down, I then wind the core to take up that slack.

   As most people know or should know....Super 8mm cartridge film actually glides thru a narrow channel in the film gate of the cameras, one created by the gate, where by the cartridge pressure plate rests firmly on small nibs.  There isn't any high pressure on the film itself, actually it's usually gentle unless the film has a very thick film base, such as FOMA R-100, then there's more gate tension from pressure in the than small gap.  Some film unsteadiness is inherent in the design of the Super 8mm format, due to the cartridges, and the location of the pull down claw.  However, a properly working camera and a smooth running load of film in a cartridge should allow quite a steady image.....not perfect, but good.  

 Double check all variables, and IF the cartridge, let KODAK know.

It does indeed look like a cartridge issue. I had a Beaulieu 5008 once and it had pretty good steadiness. (Even better with the old sound cartridges.  ) Thanks hugely Martin,  for your tips prior to loading any S8 camera.  I've never done any of these before, but in future I certainly will.  A little concerning if Kodak aren't checking their cartridges properly.  

Tyler,  look forward to getting more on this story. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Thanks for the tips guys! 

10 hours ago, Doug Palmer said:

Tyler,  look forward to getting more on this story. 

So I talked to Doug over at Spectra about it, when I got the film back. 

After seeing the footage, he said it was most likely the armature nub on the movement. He said they're made out of aluminum normally and they wear sadly. He said to install a new one is a bitch and they still wear out. Back in the day, Phil over at Pro 8 had a steel nub they developed to solve this. 

The guy I bought the camera from has been super cool and said he'd be willing to send me a replacement body and lens since the lens is also damaged. He's going to do some research and get back to me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Premium Member

Thanks for everyones help. I just wanted to get back to ya'll and tell ya what I found out. 

Turns out a lot of people are having the same issues and it's not related to the camera per say. I was able to get the stabilizer in Resolve to clean up SOME of the anomalies, but it's still not where I want it to be. I'm going to try a few things you guys recommended on our next shoot. 

Here is a sample of PART of our first shoot, corrected in Resolve. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

I've recently done some film tests with four Super 8 cameras: Beaulieu 4008, Canon 310XL, Bell & Howell 670XL, and Canon 814 Autozoom. I used the cameras mostly locked off on a tripod for the shots as I wanted to check the cameras for registration. I'm aware that Super 8 typically has some vertical 'jitter', however the scanned footage I got back on the two reels has a consistent up and down, regular pulsing movement of the frame. It's not the normal 'Super 8 jitter' but something much more noticeable and renders the footage basically unuseable. I guess it can probably be mostly fixed in post or with rescanning but I wondered what caused it. I will try and get an example posted to show what it looks like.

The sprocket holes are visible in the slightly overscanned frame and these are pretty much rock steady but you can clearly see that the image of the camera film gate itself moves up and down in a fairly steady rhythm in relation to the sprocket holes. To me logically it doesn't really seem to be a camera problem. Footage from all four cameras exhibit exactly the same type and degree of vertical movement. What causes this? I've emailed the scanning company to ask but it's the weekend and probably won't get an answer until next week. Curious to know why my footage looks the way it does. Is this typical for scanned Super 8?

Compared to Tyler's footage, posted above, my footage has a slower, more uniform movement of the frame up and down.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
1 hour ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

Was this scanned on a Winait aka Wolverine aka Somikon aka reflecta aka Kodak aka dozens of other names? Then it’s definitely the scanner‘s fault. 

Na, it was the camera/film in this sample which was the problem. We scan professionally, with a good machine. 

We  haven't had a lick of problems with the new stock from Kodak. 

So it musta been a batch of bad cartridges. The last few shoots with the same camera were fine. 

Kodak did say they had some issues with the cartridges and we found issues with even the 16mm stock related to micro scratches thanks to them changing vendors on something related to the film. Kodak gave us a refund but it was really disappointing. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I've recently done some film tests with four Super 8 cameras: Beaulieu 4008, Canon

..

.

 

Compared to Tyler's footage, posted above, my footage has a slower, more uniform movement of the frame up and down.

Many scanner setups align the frames using the perforations. This was never meant to be used like that. First of all the perf of a frame is three frames down the strip. 
There is variation in the perf's position and thus the images will become shaky when the perfs are aligned perfectly.  It easy to observe these days as so many publish super-8 with overscan to impress the audience with their good taste and money spent ?
It were best to align on a mark at the edge or a corner of a frame. The VIC scientific camera exposed a small dot near the edge to allow measurements with a fixed reference point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Compared to Tyler's footage, posted above, my footage has a slower, more uniform movement of the frame up and down.

Hi @Tyler Purcell, I was referring to John‘s quote as it reminded me of Ignacio’s tests done with a Wolverine MM Pro:

Do you notice how the frame moves up and down (and also left and right)? So the scanner could be another cause for a bad result.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is my up and down footage. As you can see it's a more regular and slower movement than the usual jitter. Please bear in mind that the scanner hasn't had time to get in touch with me yet and I'm not in any way being critical of anyone. I'm just curious as to what might cause this particular vertical movement in the image of the camera gate.

This particular clip was all from a Canon 310XL that I bought for a good price on Ebay. It's in very good nick and doesn't seem to have seen much action. The up and down frame movement is identical in the other three camera tests, shot on two reels of 50D. It's even on the Beaulieu 4008 which is a recently completely overhauled camera.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since we began scanning with our Scanstation two years ago, we noticed the same lateral unsteadiness on Super 8 scans while Standard 8, 16 and 35mm were rock steady.

It turns out there is a 5 frame repetition of the lateral movement. After talking to Kodak and Lasergraphics, this is what we found:

1. Kodak perforates the S8 film cutting 5 perfs at a time and the 'knife' cutting the perforations is slightly skewed, not perfectly straight to the edge of the film. When asked why this is not yet fixed, Kodak replied 'it is the consumer division'.

2. The Scanstation adjusts each frame by looking at the perforations and adjusting both horizontal and vertical position of the frame. Because of previous complaints, the scanning software now has an option to only do the vertical positionining of the frame, improving the unsteadiness introduced by the skewed perforations.

3.Using the Resolve Stabilize function, most shots can be easily stabilized. You need to do it shot by shot.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
1 hour ago, Dirk DeJonghe said:

Kodak replied 'it is the consumer division'.

Fits in with a Super-8 camera that takes 30 seconds to boot its software. My laptop PC that is a little more complicated is ready within 8 seconds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All fixed now. I used the stabilizer function in Davinci Resolve. I'm happy with the results. First few shots are from a Canon 310XL and the clip finishes with a Bell & Howell 670XL. It's just rough test footage to get a feel for how the cameras shoot. The footage was scanned at HD and next time I might try a 4K scan to get a slightly crisper look.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

All fixed now. I used the stabilizer function in Davinci Resolve. I'm happy with the results. First few shots are from a Canon 310XL and the clip finishes with a Bell & Howell 670XL. It's just rough test footage to get a feel for how the cameras shoot. The footage was scanned at HD and next time I might try a 4K scan to get a slightly crisper look.

 

Good to have usable images.

That is however not really fixing it ?  The scanning shoudl adopt another strategy for locating the frames.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apparently there might have been a slight glitch of some kind with those two cartridges. The scanner said that he's not seen this before and he's going to get in touch with someone who scans a lot of Super 8 footage in the US and ask them if they can shed some light on the situation. I'm sure Kodak will sort it out. I'm just happy to be able to get stabilized footage (and it's very easy and quick to fix). In some shots I opted for less stabilization as a totally rock solid look on Super 8 doesn't really suit it. The brief shot of the cottage is one such shot that was made absolutely still. I don't actually mind a bit of Super 8 jitter.

Anyway .... That's that test done. Onward to the next project.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Have you ever seen Super-8 camera reversal originals projected? That can have quite good steadiness. I project 8 mm films five feet wide. The only unsteadiness comes from the camera not being placed on a tripod. Everything exposed cam on sticks is steady.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Simon Wyss said:

Have you ever seen Super-8 camera reversal originals projected? That can have quite good steadiness. I project 8 mm films five feet wide. The only unsteadiness comes from the camera not being placed on a tripod. Everything exposed cam on sticks is steady.

People want easy filming to become next Spielberg.
Dedication is not so strong that they will carry and use tripod ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Simon Wyss said:

Have you ever seen Super-8 camera reversal originals projected? That can have quite good steadiness. I project 8 mm films five feet wide. The only unsteadiness comes from the camera not being placed on a tripod. Everything exposed cam on sticks is steady.

Yes that's how I got my start, in my teens, projecting reversal originals. I've still got the projector -- a Chinon. I've no idea how to get it up and running again. It would be great to project reversal film again.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Thanks for the honesty

Nothing replaces projected film. There are people around who service projectors. Sure I am too far away, just telling, I do brush up them little monsters, a Kodascope Eight-70 is on its way to me right now, an Ampro 8 is waiting for an overhaul, Eumig P 8, too. The Super-8 projectors are not better mechanically than the Regular-8 ones, in fact there are 8-R machines that still function faultlessly after 90 years now. Most Super-8 projectors have shorter lives. Still your Chinon can possibly be brought back to life. Give it some love.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my second test. It's much of the same material as the first test (didn't have much time available on the day and I just had to get these tests done). I like the look of this better. The sprocket hole does seem to add a bit of extra authenticity to Super 8 footage.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...