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Quiet, Portable 16mm Camera for Weddings


Lukas Price

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Hi everyone,

I am just reaching out to see if anyone has advice for a fairly specific set of circumstances.

I currently shoot a lot of personal and wedding film on super8 and my Bolex H16 Rex 5. I’m finding that the Bolex is often distractingly loud and that it’s difficult to quickly load and reload during a wedding.

I’ve done a heap of research and I can’t seem to find an option for a quiet, semi portable, 400ft 16mm camera, that I can reasonably afford.

It may very well be that I just need to live with the loud bolex and get better at loading!

My realistic budget would not be any more than $4000US or so. I’ve read plenty of discussions about Aatons or Arri BL style cameras but am unsure if they’d be fit for purpose. Even if budget is no question I am not sure if there’s an ideal camera for these circumstances.

Any help or advice from you very experienced people would be much appreciated!

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cp16r and eclair npr could work for the application pretty well and could fit about 2k-3k range without lenses. The ACL is higher noise but might work with soft blimp. The eclairs have much better lens options (with cp16r you are limited to couple of basic zoom lenses used with an adapter) but the cp16r is cheaper and has lower running noise.

If there is lots more budget than 4k, then the Arri SR (1 or 2) could be an option. I think Aatons are overpriced for the application (expensive to cla as well) and would only be beneficial you you need to shoot lots of handheld

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9 minutes ago, aapo lettinen said:

Arri SR (1 or 2) could be an option

I don't think the SR cameras are la good option to run around with on a wedding do, especially if you operate on your own. Once you add a lens, a mattebox, focus gear, handgrip and battery, it is too heavy to carry around contimuously. Same goes for the BL cameras, they're heavy beasts.

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3 hours ago, Uli Meyer said:

I don't think the SR cameras are la good option to run around with on a wedding do, especially if you operate on your own. Once you add a lens, a mattebox, focus gear, handgrip and battery, it is too heavy to carry around contimuously. Same goes for the BL cameras, they're heavy beasts.

I think all the cameras will go to +10kg range in shooting condition so they will be heavy anyway and I assume one will shoot on tripod anyway for weight and logistical reasons. the CP16R out of those has magnesium alloy body so it is not that heavy compared to aluminium counterparts but the ergonomics are not the best and threading takes some time which may not be the most practical choice for documentary style shooting like the wedding ceremony is.

Something with a reliable quick change magazine and easy and fast loading + reliable loops which are not super picky would be practical which is why I would probably prefer the SR for that kind of use.  The additional benefit is that the SR cameras are quite small compared to the other options which should help moving it around reducing distraction.  The cp16r, why not if it does not need to be reloaded in the middle of the ceremony because that takes WAY longer than the quick change mag cameras mag change

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Honestly hate to be that guy but with your budget this just doesn’t seem super realistic, Simon is correct that CP16r is probably your best bet for reflex viewfinder application but as you’ve found with the bolex quick change is a thing, the ACL will probs be maxing out your budget but is best suited for this application. Also as an aside, as a dude that just dropped way too much money on a wedding I would be mortified if I could hear the blender-esque roar of a bolex over my wedding vows but I’m sure you’re being conscious of that aspect. We all know DPs have the utmost respect for sound ?

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Never gonna happen for that budget sadly. 

The cameras in that price range are all going to need serious work to function properly and "run and gun" requires a few things that they don't have. One, a really good integrated meter. Arri has one of the best in the SR. Aaton also has a great meter. But ya can't get either for that kind of money. To me, an SR1(or 2) with the built in meter, with an Arri B mount and an old school Arri 11-110 MKI would be perfect. They have a great feature which allows you to run the aperture all the way open when not shooting and when you run, it automatically stops down, very cool feature. So you can get your focus, then run the camera and be confident you're getting the shot. The SR is also very integrated, nothing hanging off, it's slim, quiet enough, LOTS of support with parts everywhere in the world as well. You'll spend roughly $12k or so for a working SR1 or SR2 with a 11-110 and working onboard batteries. May be lucky to get one that hasn't been serviced for less, but I wouldn't because they do have wear items that need to be managed. 

The other options like the CP16 and Eclair ACL series, I wouldn't get near with a 10 foot pole. They are cheap, but that's the only good thing about them. CP's are getting to a point where the electronics are a huge issue and failing constantly. Nearly all of the CP repairs I do these days are from bad electronics. Eclair ACL's are just falling apart; motors, electronics, plastic bits on the mags, they're just old. Great cameras for 1960's technology, but in todays world, I wouldn't really contemplate using them, but that's just me. 

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1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

The other options like the CP16 and Eclair ACL series, I wouldn't get near with a 10 foot pole. They are cheap, but that's the only good thing about them. CP's are getting to a point where the electronics are a huge issue and failing constantly. Nearly all of the CP repairs I do these days are from bad electronics. Eclair ACL's are just falling apart; motors, electronics, plastic bits on the mags, they're just old. Great cameras for 1960's technology, but in todays world, I wouldn't really contemplate using them, but that's just me. 

I have new replacement electronics designed for CP16R which replace everything except the motor itself, it is 1 internal speed but affordable so would make sense if getting the camera body for cheap (a body with faulty original circuit boards would work perfectly as long as it is mechanically perfect) . The update needs to be user installed so it needs some work and maybe not something the OP was after but still is a solution for CP16 faulty boards. I think one could get the CP16R working relatively well even for about 2k or 2.5k minimum if it does not need mechanical service and using the 1-speed update and a very basic angenieux zoom lens.

I have a new motor for the Eclair ACL too which entirely bypasses all the original electronics of the ACL camera and can be easily user installed as it is just bolting it in place of the original motor and adjusting and having a different voltage battery arranged. It is mechanically not as finessed as the original ACL motors and has no shutter parking and slightly slower speed up but it is otherwise pretty good system and relatively affordable for a new motor, about 1k. So the ACL with this motor could probably be got for something like a little over 3k or so fully working.

By my opinion, the best way to deal with ancient camera electronics is just to bypass them entirely and make completely new ones so that one does not have to deal with discontinued custom logic chips and such anymore and can use off the shelf parts instead. The old camera electronics like eclair, aaton, arri, cinema products are proprietary complex stuff with very limited repair possibilities and very few people even know how the original ones were constructed so it is often more helpful to just make new ones (even when very time consuming and expensive and somewhat frustrating) because with new ones at least SOMEONE will know how to repair it and every component is new and available and replaceable. New controllers rely on proprietary custom software which cannot be user repaired but, frankly speaking, there is not many users in the World who were able to repair the traditional non-software based crystal sync electronics either and with new technology the designers are still around able to help with them whenever needed

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Not that many plastic bits in the ACL magazines to fall apart IMO. Sure, metal pieces have seen lots action on these cameras, since they were used by TV companies in the 1970s and 1980s. Many, many feet of 16mm gone through them. However, if you are moving up from a Bolex (!) and your budget is limited, well, I like the ACL ergonomics quite much. And it is quiet, when it is in good condition. Not XTR quiet, but much quieter than a Bolex.

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Shooting weddings on 16mm is difficult no matter what you do. The camera is either very heavy or it's noisy. Super 8 is slightly quiter and much faster to load. If I was shooting a lot of weddings on film I think I'd probably get a good Super 8 camera, such as from Pro8mm or some other reputable camera repair/rebuilding business, or a few cheaper cameras as back up.

If filming with something like a Bolex Rex-5 you will have to point out to the couple that your camera makes a fairly loud whirring sound indoors. For shooting weddings with a lighter 16mm camera I had the idea of filming only the preparations, the arrival, and just after the ceremony.

The ceremony itself if indoors could be shot on digital if you don't have a quiet running camera - and the reception too, with perhaps the dance shot on film (with lights) if desired. There will be music playing during the dance so camera noise shouldn't be a problem.

If you are determined to shoot 16mm how about a Bolex EL or EBM. They are fairly noisy but you don't have to keep winding them. You can get 400' mags for them but you also need a small motor on the magazine. You could try Du-All in the US.

All the best with your filming!

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There are ways to make your life easier filming weddings, without spending too much money. You probably know this, but you can also get an electric motor that will fit on the side of a Bolex Rex 5 and similar models. The camera will still be loud but you can film at a moment's notice (if you don't need to load film at that moment!).

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there is also the Scoopic on the about 1k price range but I think it is too noisy too. 

If normal 16 will do, then I think it should be doable for 4k and you should get pretty good results and can be sync sound capable though the camera will be older model.

Realistically the camera body with mags has to be something between 1k and 2.5k to make it possible to manage with the 4k budget.

I checked every 16mm camera on eBay right now at that price range and the only options which are relatively quiet and can be sync sound and have a reflex finder are the CP16R, the Eclair NPR and the Eclair ACL, out of those only ACLs were available at the moment. There is nothing else on that price range than those three camera models.

If a bolex will do, that's fine but a sound capable 16mm camera which is low noise with reasonable image quality and 400ft mag, is not awkward to operate and can be sync sound --> that has to be the cp16r, the NPR or the ACL at the moment. 

Probably needs to be the ACL because that gives the best price-performance ratio at the moment and can use (affordable) c-mount lenses to save costs, can be serviced, you can get a backup body if needed, you can get motors for it at least at the moment. One warning though, make sure that the ACL has a working viewfinder on it as you won't find any used finders separately so the finder must be included with the camera

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If shooting on digital as some have suggested you could always sort of 'cheat' a little, if mixing the footage with real film, by using film emulation software in post on the digital. Add heaps of grain and a bit of gate weave. I'm all for it, myself.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
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I previously shot a wedding on an OG Blackmagic Pocket paired with a Zeiss 10-100 T2 (and then further combined with a MFT Olympus 1.4x Teleconverter on the back of the PL adapter to cover the sensor size and then some. An 11-110 would cover the full sensor.)

It reminded me of S16, partially because the Zeiss lens itself was/is used on a lot of 16mm filming and inherently has a 16mm feeling. I also had the Pocket around 800-1600, so the noise texture plus the lower color gamut of the sensor added to the 16mm feel.

It definitely wasn't film, but it felt kinda similar. 

However, it seems like the best approach for you would just be to find a quieter 8mm camera and/or make a custom blimp/barney. On top of that, you could just have multiple 8mm cameras. No/less need to reload - plus redundancy. 

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5 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

I have new replacement electronics designed for CP16R which replace everything except the motor itself, it is 1 internal speed but affordable so would make sense if getting the camera body for cheap (a body with faulty original circuit boards would work perfectly as long as it is mechanically perfect)

Yea, it's super exciting because that's one of the biggest problems. 

However, the board doesn't solve the metering issue and it sure as heck doesn't solve the lens selection as nearly ALL CP's are not a standard lens mount. In fact, I've worked on dozens of CP's over the recent years and I to this day have never physically held a CP16 with a useable lens mount. 

Now the ACL... totally different story. That camera is a different can of worms. I really don't much care for it because the viewfinder is so damn dark when running. If you stop that thing down for outdoor shooting, you can't see shit. Fine if you're using very sensitive stock out doors, but good luck shooting indoors in dark situations. No way will you be able to tell focus. This is one of the major reasons why people moved away from these cameras, because the viewfinders suck compared to the newer cameras. The CP is actually better due the butterfly shutter, it does have more light going into the viewfinder, but the optics also suck. 

The SR1 is better for sure, the SR2 even though it has nearly identical optics, is an even better camera. You're paying for the ability to use the viewfinder in dark areas, which is critical when shooting indoors at night like weddings. I shoot a lot of run and gun with my XTR Prod, which has arguably a pretty decent viewfinder and it's DARK and unusable in many situations, even wide open with sensitive stock. 

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Once I used a Bolex EBM with mag, to film a poetry-reading. I received lots of tut-tuts from the audience even though I kept well away from the centre stage. The director didn't mind as she was going to dub music on instead.  She just wanted the visuals of the reader, and their annoyance and his reactions maybe part of it ?

It is possible however to silence a Bolex if you don't mind a heavy blimp. I later made one from an old projector case lined with felt and rubber-backed carpet and a Cokin filter.  Important not to have the camera touching blimp, floating inside.

Super-8 much quieter and you'd still get the film look.

 

 

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If the magazine/roll changing is the only issue, it would be useful to have a digital camera as a "cold camera" shooting wides and one can intercut to that when dealing with the film camera mags/rolls. For example a wide overhead digital cam mounted high up only shooting fixed wide shot and then covering all the mediums and closeups with the film camera. This would resolve most of the camera/runtime/film threading/etc issues I think

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6 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

I would suggest just shooting with a Bolex it is not that loud and in general I have found that people actually love the sound of it.

 

YMMV

If they've specifically asked for film they probably do love the sound.

I think though that many potential client's expectations of film and film cameras is perhaps unrealistically high. After all nearly everyone if they have a tiny bit of skill can film excellent video, with audio, on their phones - smooth, colorful, vibrant, high definition, and of course without camera noise.

I've found people can sometimes look a little surprised when you explain to them patiently that the camera need expensive motion smoothing equipment to match the look of ultra-smooth digitally stabilized phone footage, and that the footage needs to be color graded after scanning, and that the cameras can be noisy especially indoors, etc etc., and that the cameras can be very heavy, and require fluid head tripods, etc.

The numbers of potential clients that understand real film and how it is shot seem to be a bit thin on the ground sometimes.

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I concluded that the only practical way forward if you actually want to try to make a buck out of shooting on film is to also get into digital, to cover the areas where film can be a bit impractical in a particular situation or of course for clients who aren't interested in real film at all. It would be great if you can actually make a living (or a partial living while also doing other work) just from shooting film. I think there's someone in New York that does, shooting weddings on 16mm exclusively.

Last time I looked at his website I think he was mainly using Scoopics.

Great camera, wouldn't mind one. Noisy though.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
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