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Would we see more "larger than full frame" digital cinema cameras in the coming years ??


John Shell

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Not that I think bigger sensors are better but I'm just wondering, the ALEXA 65 is about a decade old now it still remains the only cinema camera in this segment(well there was the Phantom 65 but it's retired now and never really gained much traction anyway). I'm aware of issues of manufacturing larger sensors but even IMAX is building new 15/65 film cameras in this digital age and I'm not sure those are cheaper to make. 

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You can in principle shoot video on something like a Fuji GFX100, which has a 43.9 by 32.9mm sensor; that's bigger than the LF but smaller than the 65. It's not a particularly wonderful video camera. It's a five-figure, medium-format, high-end stills monster and it doesn't have enormous specifications in moving picture mode. There are presumably other medium format cameras which will do similar things.

For high end motion picture work, though, I think you're right - I'm not aware of anything other than the Alexa 65 that's bigger than LF.

Several technical factors also apply here. There are now sensors in the Super-35mm/APS-C size range which accommodate 6K resolution without significant compromise. Bigger sensors make lenses huge, heavy and vastly expensive, and demand either more light or superhuman focus pullers.

Could we, sure, will we? Why?

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It depends on the demand. Going larger than full frame in fabrication means fewer sensors for a given amount of material, which makes mass production costlier, especially if there are failures in a given batch. It may be somewhat more cost effective to use multiple smaller sensors stitched together after fabrication

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Certainly it seems larger-then-full-frame is more of a niche market in still photography and I suspect the same will be true in filmmaking, Also, the benefits of large sensors are not quite as visible on the screen as the benefits of large film formats like 65mm and IMAX.  You could intercut regular Alexa, Alexa LF, and Alexa 65 footage together in one movie more seamlessly than you can intercut 35mm and 65mm because grain size is not a factor and resolution is always variable in terms of perception.

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In the past, there was a „resolution barrier“. Back then, it wasn’t possible to go beyond 6MP (in digital still photography) on APS-C-sized sensors without limiting the ISO-Range and/or increasing the digital noise and other artifacts. But now, Fujifilm‘s X-T5 has 40MP without any problems…

So the need for having larger sensors seems to be gone for now (except for the impact of the sensor size on the depth of field).

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I am predicting that Red will make a 65mm sensor. This sensor will probably be 12K+, and provide more DR than even the V-Raptor. It might have to be a CCD, if they want a global shutter. But I'm hardly an expert in sensor design.

This sensor will be placed in a camera body that's larger than Red is used to making. But that should be fine for those who think that serious cameras should be as large and heavy as a 535.

Heck, it might even be a 645 sensor. "That's not full frame... THAT'S full frame." What the heck, right?

The Alexa 65 has pretty much no unique selling point anymore, and arguably never did, not even for IMAX. YMMV.

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On 2/27/2023 at 4:47 AM, Karim D. Ghantous said:

Heck, it might even be a 645 sensor. "That's not full frame... THAT'S full frame." What the heck, right?

It's always struck me as odd that what the moving picture industry calls large format is smaller than medium format.

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On 2/26/2023 at 8:47 PM, Karim D. Ghantous said:

I am predicting that Red will make a 65mm sensor. This sensor will probably be 12K+, and provide more DR than even the V-Raptor. It might have to be a CCD, if they want a global shutter. But I'm hardly an expert in sensor design.

This sensor will be placed in a camera body that's larger than Red is used to making. But that should be fine for those who think that serious cameras should be as large and heavy as a 535.

Heck, it might even be a 645 sensor. "That's not full frame... THAT'S full frame." What the heck, right?

The Alexa 65 has pretty much no unique selling point anymore, and arguably never did, not even for IMAX. YMMV.

the problem with that idea is that where is everyone gonna get the 65mm compatible lenses? Vista Vision was one thing, theres tons of glass that covers 8 perf. But when you get into 65mm territory you're really in lens rental territory just to be able to use the thing. So then suddenly that camera body is a rental only. Maybe Panavision would order a custom build for it, but since the Alexa 65 is rental only as well and I believe you can pair it with super 70 glass or the like, then unless there is a serious indication of demand from panavision's customers for a Red sourced sensor Im not sure why they'd order it. 

I have CCDs come down in price? I thought the reason that entire approach was abandoned was because a 5k RGB, 1080p resolving CCD sensor cost alone the same as a full Alexa at launch (IIRC the sony F35 CCD block alone was like 70k USD, with the full F35 camera being around 250k USD) and there was no indication it would ever scale. 

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Interesting also that they just brought out the Arri35. With digital sensor technology now so advanced I wonder if the industry might be moving more towards Super35 size sensors rather than 'full frame', 65 etc. More lenses available for Super 35.

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9 hours ago, Robin Phillips said:

I have CCDs come down in price? I thought the reason that entire approach was abandoned was because a 5k RGB, 1080p resolving CCD sensor cost alone the same as a full Alexa at launch (IIRC the sony F35 CCD block alone was like 70k USD, with the full F35 camera being around 250k USD) and there was no indication it would ever scale. 

I actually have no idea. I'm very curious about this stuff, I have to say. I might start a thread asking if anyone has knowledge or expertise in that field.

3 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Interesting also that they just brought out the Arri35. With digital sensor technology now so advanced I wonder if the industry might be moving more towards Super35 size sensors rather than 'full frame', 65 etc. More lenses available for Super 35.

I remember how the narrative for a year or two was that S35 was going to be overtaken by VV. Sure, Jan!

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