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How do very old 16mm prints age?


Todd Ruel

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Film transfer experts and film print collectors:

I just bought off of eBay a 1924 industrial film about General Motors constructing their proving grounds in Milford Michigan.  Black and white.  Silent (of course).  I have not yet received the film print in the mail.

From the eBay vendor's screen grabs, the print appears tinted yellow.  I know that film tinting was done for some major Hollywood productions back in those days.  (The silent 1925 version of Ben Hur comes to mind.)  But I didn't think industrial films would be tinted.

Question:  has the film print simply faded to yellow?  (I have very little experience with how very old movie film ages.)  Or do you think it might actually be tinted?

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I have some badly vinegared 1955 35mm. film and it has indeed gone what you could call yellow, although it's more of an orange/sepia sort of tone. It's not a colour you'd choose for a tint.

Well-kept b/w film can survive without vinegar syndrome but it's quite rare. Bear in mind that your print may be much later- 16mm. was introduced only in 1923 as an amateur format, and wasn't used professionally  for shooting (as opposed to distribution), for decades, so unless your film was shot by an amateur, it's more likely to be a later reduction from 35mm.

You'll have to wait and see. If it smells strongly of vinegar the emulsion may be in very poor condition as mine is- cracked and crazed- and the best option for preservation may be a scan.

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You probably bought a Diacetate, not Triacetate print, so it may not be suffering from vinegar syndrome; it's just naturally odoriferous! 

Most diacetate is orangy/yellow and smells of mothballs.  Once you smell it, you'll never forget it! 

It may be fine, just a bit brittle and shrunken.

EDIT:  the reason most early 16mm prints were yellow/orange is that it was a form of copy protection.  Yellow subtracts blue light;  most 16mm lab stocks were blue only sensitive.  Film lending libraries used this tinted base stock in an attempt to keep their prints from being duped!

The old Kodascope Library prints were all this color, for obvious reasons.

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/preservation-glossary/diacetate

 

Edited by Frank Wylie
yellow notes
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1 hour ago, Frank Wylie said:

smells of mothballs

That smell is the result of putting camphor or paper with camphor oil into the film canisters/cans/boxes. This was done to keep the films flexible and to prevent vinegar syndrome. 

Edited by Joerg Polzfusz
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4 minutes ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

That smell is the result of putting camphor or paper with camphor oil into the film canisters/cans/boxes. This was done to keep the films flexible and to prevent vinegar syndrome. 

This also works to re-plasticize older films I have a seal-able lab chamber I put films into with camphor tablets and it works really well for films which are starting to turn.

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3 hours ago, Mark Dunn said:

so unless your film was shot by an amateur, it's more likely to be a later reduction from 35mm.

This is a good point, Mark.  I'm sure you're right about this.  When I receive the print in the mail, I'll check the edge codes to see if I can determine when the print was struck.

Thanks for the input!

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3 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

the reason most early 16mm prints were yellow/orange is that it was a form of copy protection.  Yellow subtracts blue light;  most 16mm lab stocks were blue only sensitive.  Film lending libraries used this tinted base stock in an attempt to keep their prints from being duped!

Frank, your input is why I come to this forum!  I didn't know about diacetate or triacetate prints.  (Most of my films are from the 1950s forward.)

I also did not know that tinted stocks were used as a form of copy protection!

Thank you for the wise words.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

On 5/3/2023 at 12:10 PM, Todd Ruel said:

Film transfer experts and film print collectors:

I just bought off of eBay a 1924 industrial film about General Motors constructing their proving grounds in Milford Michigan.  Black and white.  Silent (of course).  I have not yet received the film print in the mail.

From the eBay vendor's screen grabs, the print appears tinted yellow.  I know that film tinting was done for some major Hollywood productions back in those days.  (The silent 1925 version of Ben Hur comes to mind.)  But I didn't think industrial films would be tinted.

Question:  has the film print simply faded to yellow?  (I have very little experience with how very old movie film ages.)  Or do you think it might actually be tinted?

Post some of the eBay photos...let's see um.

I love the old tinted films. But I don't think films in the 20s - 40s were done on tinted stock for copy protection. That was done much earlier. People could get around it if they wanted to copy by then. Tinting was generally done for effect or maybe that was the stock they had on hand...but just guessing.

Wide range of color tinted stock were in use back in the day.

CherchiUsai_SilentCinema_KodakSonochrome

https://ia902608.us.archive.org/21/items/jones-tinted-films-sonochrome-1929/Jones_TintedFilmsSonochrome_1929.pdf

Cine Art / Hollywood Featurette used their 'trademark' orange tinted stock for their films.

DSC06421-2.JPG

Agfa and Dupont also made tinted 16mm stock.

Agfa%2016mm%202.jpg

eBay photo 

s-l1600.jpg

eBay photo

Some of this material here may have come from Barbara Flueckiger, can't remember. Check her out for info on tinted film stock. I had written to her years ago with some film questions...never got a reply. You may do better.

Barbara%20Flueckiger.jpg

Barbara Flueckiger

Here is a scan from one of Cine Art's orange tinted film stocks. 'Hollywood Sand Witches' 1928 (NSFW)

Vimeo banned me so have not put up anything else there. Sad, as I'm always getting new followers and never give them back anything. I guess the lechers like the old-time nudie girls. The weird thing is Vimeo didn't take down the old stuff, they just pull down anything new I put up. 

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Daniel D. Teoli Jr. Archival Collection
Daniel D. Teoli Jr. Small Gauge Film Archive
Daniel D. Teoli Jr. Advertising Archive
Daniel D. Teoli Jr. VHS Video Archive
Daniel D. Teoli Jr. Popular Culture Archive
Daniel D. Teoli Jr. Audio Archive
Daniel D. Teoli Jr. Social Documentary Photography

 

 

 

 

 

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