jan von krogh

Serial numbers 1-25 will be delivered August 31st (next Friday). Serial numbers 26-50 will be delivered Sept, 7th (following Friday). There will be a slight delay due to IBC for the next batch of deliveries. We'll keep you posted. Jim

Yes. Having been involved in several larger designs and development, i would rather be surprised if such a project would be completed exactly in time. Thats rather the exception, and anyone in the industry for a little bit longer has made that experience with almost any manufacturer. No matter if mass market software (apple, microsoft) or expensive mechanical engineering (Airbus A380, Rolly Royce, Boeing), you usually find problems along the way, and the final 5% can sometimes be as problematic as the first 50%. And even if the prototypes perform well - serial manufacturing offers a plenthorra of additional logistic and technological challenges. There is a russian proverb: You can have 9 women, but you won´t get the baby in a month. I had the pleasure to meet them in summer 2006. Very throughout and open communication. Back then they told us: The only thing which is sure - is that there will be changes. Logically, as reservation holder, i would benefit of a delivery at the earliest date. However, i wasn´t expecting cameras of that class before 2009-11, and certainly not at that pricepoint. Therefore our mid-term strategy has been bosted by them quite a bit, even if they would need additional months.

i agree with sam. i would agree for a videocontainer, however i would recommend to start with a single frame sequence in order to rule out -any- influences of the codec. dvcprohd can be dangerous - as it is able to contain different framerates, the application used for playback can misinterpret the internal metadata. i agree with sam - however, it seems in this particular case, the telecine has been done to disk, if i understand correctly. therefore, using a tapeexchange would add another layer of possible mistakes, and, indeed, cost.

Not until you have identified the source of the problem. dvcpro hd has several pitfalls regarding framerates of its own, so you would add another layer of possible sources for problems.

Mitch, is it that hard to read? i wrote: However, it depends on the job. Two examples: for live application with multicamera, i would probably choose hdcam over red. hdcam has intercom, intergrated wireless audio, remote etc.... Or take Battlestar Galactica: Steve McNutt uses the HDCAM Camera to colorcorrect on the set, while shooting, and a HDCAM can do this in realtime and has a human interface which can be remoted for this purpose. Reds workflow aims more at the higher end workfow, and would introduce another step - so for him, the more expensive Sony might be the better choice. (He is using the Sony 900s btw) is that to complicated to understand?

Stephen, forgot to mention - we got that effect on the really lowclass fujinon zoom - so i can´t say if its weaker on better zooms. it was a broadcast 10x mid/late 80ties zoom for 1/2 inch cameras. never had the chance to test it with our angenieux.

Indeed :) The cyclist are just the tip of the iceberg btw. A client is prepping a doc about systematic doping in top-sports, with prominent folks as ben johnson etc in it. It a -real- swamp, sadly, no matter what nation it seems.

The cameraman as well?

I can confirm the distortion with zooms. It looks like a, hard to describe, like a "mini-vertigo with a slight pincushion distortion". If you know its there, you always see it. However i have to say that i can´t explain why - the vertigo is clear, but the pincushion... my knowledge about zoom lens design is to mediocre to understand why, as of yet, at least. Also, sadly, i have no longer a motion control in house and can´t test it anymore. Basicly the allocated budget for a cheap moco now is in certain cameras we ordered.

indeed. #1 have him send you a single frame sequence. this opt out the - codec - decoding - interpretation by player/nle #2 if the problem still is there, things are more messy. - what framerate did you shoot at. any overcrankings? - what framerate shall the digital format have

I forgot... Can be done for primes as well - but then you will not use a FL control, but a moco on the z-axis.

correct. We also use compensation on our angenieuxs. however, this thread isn´t about cinelenses but about converted nikon (or photo in general) lenses. And just to be sure: You said: Now you understand, i suppose?

Ok, Curt von Badinsky also has it on his feature list. Viewfactors spec sheet: * Wireless (Zigbee) and Wired control options - wireless range: 1Mile in open, 300 ft indoors * Encrypted transmission - avoids radio interference and no addressing is necessary (no dips to set) * Mono Graphical LCD - full user interface with numerous features that are easily upgraded * Modular design - all control axis are assignable to any of the three input devices (Force sensor, Knob, or Capacitive slider), right or left handed operation * Solid construction - water resistant magnesium case, o-ring seals, minimal mechanical components * 3 channel simultaneous control * Motion control functionality - **record and repeat moves, goto preset positions automatically, settings for speed and easing * Removable battery pack, rechargeable via usb connection * Lens database - choose a preset lens to auto calibrate the motors to a given lens. Fully upgradeable via usb or SD card. * Receiver unit accepts 12V-24V power source and connects to three motors, includes usb connection for use with certain digital cinema cameras * Receiver unit dimensions are approx. 3.0"x2.0"x0.75" * **Lens Breathing Compensation (LBC) - during a rack focus, zoom motor compensations for breathing to keep framing consistent * **Works with Mirus motion control system - Record FIZ tracks separately or during a moco shot ** This functionality may not be in place at time of shipping but will be enabled through future software releases.

Yes. I have done that shot myself and i took me a whole day to compensate. To be precise - it was a DOS basing text interface, no undo, one wrong entered information and the whole program had to be redone. Correct. If you remember i told you once - that was the mutant motion control we build ourself (ah, the early days). In fact, we had the idea as we had to do the shot and the z-axis wasn´t working at that time, so we decided to do it with the lens motors, which were already working. One day, i will track that motion control down. It was sold, i think, in ~1997/8 and i lost it out of my eyes in ~2000. However, i hear its still in use, somewhere near Stuttgart. The guy who designed it was really a cool engineer.

As it seems, the second company is starting to work on it. Viewfactor. We are also working on a lens breathing compensation mode that will basically eliminate breathing on your lenses. The setup for that is a little trickier and I'd expect that the data would have to come from us by setting up a calibration bench of some sort. Basically you would need two motors-one for focus and one for zoom. As you rack focus, the zoom motor will back off or advance to adjust the zoom and keep the framing same through out the shot. We tried it out manually and its looking very promising on the POS fujinon lens we have here. Once we get to that point of testing we may enlist the help of redusers to donate lenses and hardware to get a decent database for everyone to download to their remotes. __________________ Curt von Badinski View Factor source: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3082

ok, i looked up the post on reduser.net. he seems to intend to go the way with calibration datasheets. Does anyone know if the Birger mount+ follow focus is going to compensate for some breathing still lenses do? Or is that not possible? It is one of many features on a list for later. Once we either release our own zoom motor, or have integrated with the RED motor, we will look at implementing this. The real issue is the production of the calibration data. We have ways to do this automagically... but that will require our auto-interactive focus module that we will not be announcing for some time... The other request that comes quite often is aperture comensation on variable aperture zooms. Because of the quarter stop steps of the Canon iris mechanism, this feature may not be that interesting without some intervention in post. This also requires a zoom motor. Erik Widding www.birger.com source: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.ph...3101&page=5

That might be the reason why you don´t develop it :) It is already done (in a way more expensive) way with motion controls. Indeed i did my first own fl-corrected gliding focus in ~94 on a cheap fujinon lens which breathed terribly. However, this was stopmotion-work, frame by frame, and it took us like 2 days for ~15 seconds. But i am still sceptic as well - there are massive obstacles to overcome, And its pretty much more challenging with moving images in realtime. Yes. As we both don´t know for sure -how- Birger is intending to implement this, we have to speculate. disclaimer: i am no expert in canon/nikon lenses, especially not in the newer ones for digital cameras, so i might overlook important features/possibilities inherent to these lenses. The simplest, primitive, method one could think of would require building a lookup-list for the individual lens. Basicly measuring every focal lenght in small steps in any focus position. This measured data then is used to control fl to compensate breathing focus. Indeed, thats the way we have done it on motion controls - but for a small range, frame by frame, in a controlled environment and in non-real-time. I suppose/speculate that performing this in realtime would be pretty vulnerable to jitter, especially if one does a fast, tough focus change. The elegant approach would be to have the parameters of the optical system in the lens. In that case, a -nearly- perfect compensation would be feasible, as one then would use algorithms instead of datasheets. however, i highly doubt that canon or nikon would share these confidential data with birger, and reverse engineering this, due to the non-linear characteristics, would be really challenging, Anyhow, Birger really seems to plan this, and i really whish him all the best for this stunt. If i am not missing something important, i don´t think he´ll be able to compensate -all- lenses, but a few ones.

as real die-hard film guy it goes: 35 - like 65 - love

nothing announced as of yet.

For Nick Harris type of work, i would agree. Anything on the showreel would benefit more of the red characteristics than from a F23. However, it depends on the job. Two examples: for live application with multicamera, i would probably choose hdcam over red. hdcam has intercom, intergrated wireless audio, remote etc.... Or take Battlestar Galactica: Steve McNutt uses the HDCAM Camera to colorcorrect on the set, while shooting, and a HDCAM can do this in realtime and has a human interface which can be remoted for this purpose. Reds workflow aims more at the higher end workfow, and would introduce another step - so for him, the more expensive Sony might be the better choice. (He is using the Sony 900s btw) To many reasons to list. 1) Many people, who are unqualified/emotional/underinformed in artistic and technological aspects, are indeed in leading positions of our industry - as finance can be more important than content. they often make dangerous and wrong decisions regarding tools / art, however if their program/show/movie succeeds they will happily continue that way, as the overall outcome was good and thats the only (or main) interest they have. 2) Many underinformed/pessimistic people think that red is a hoax/scam/marketing scum. 3) In fact, for larger rental houses, integrating red in their portfolio is pretty complicated and dangerous. My company, as example had had a hard time finding a pricing for red. Our hdcams are much more expensive, on the other hand, the red is the camera of the higher quality and its cheaper - so do we price it above or below hdcam? For us as lean´n´mean, small´n´smart operation, this is manageable. But now imagine you would run a larger rental house, with a stockpile of over 50 hdcams. If you would introduce 50 additional red, you would have to double your business in order to keep the hdcams running. 4) Snobs. The industry has many of them. We have customers who prefer HDCAM SR over uncompressed decklink, as they have heard that uncompressed decklink is cheap. You don´t argue with such customers. They want less quality for more money, so its ok. 5) Standards. The larger part of the business, as sad as it is, isn´t glorious full-feature aimed at cinematic release, but indeed broadcast. Especialy with very small stations (who often only have ~5 vtrs) and hige international stations (who have decided to have THE ONE STANDARD) it can be pretty difficult to deliver something they don´t know. I will never forget how one of our first digital betacam masters was refused by a geman public broadcaster - as they wanted Betacam SP and claimed that "the betacam tape is defect". 6) Good enough mentality. HDCAM has a proven trackrecord in delivering Blockbusters. From Superman to Star Wars, from Sin City to Apolcalypto. Therefore, many producers, especially the anxious ones, -know- that hdcam is good enough. 7) Education & Intelligence. Believe it or not - its not trivial to understand the benefits a red camera offers. I have come across many highly talented and experienced DoPs, who really didn´t know -anything- about D.I. and high-end colorcorrection. Now, if you introduce them to "the waveletbased rawdata is processed via EDL by redcine, originated in FCS2 with the proxy Quicktime, and from there on we deliver log-spaced cineon dpx with Lut-files to the arrilaser" style workflows, and look deeply into their eyes, you night read four letters: "TILT". And then there are the ones unwilling to learn and get better, defending their lifelong mediocre, but guaranteed job - and i even can understand them. for them making TV or movies isn´t emotionally important, rather simply a job. I don´t think that is intelligent, however, it is easier and less stressfull. 8) Distribution. Do not underestimate how many highly talented salesagents and resellers are working for the japanese behemonths and the european top-specialist. They know the customers, and they can be pretty convincing. I have bought several products of sony as "throw-in" deal. They knew i would need a class 1 monitor, and they knew i was thinking about buying a non-sony microphone. Now, they simply throw in the microphone. Deals like that are common in the industry, and yes even with F23s in a large scale. Think about equipping an OB-VAN, or 3, for the next Olympic Games. Panasonic and Sony will give -ultratough- competition. These are only some points of many more. However, back to the topic, i agree. For Nick Harris i would also recommend red. If he needs to deliver HDCAM SR, then red and a HDCAM SR VTR.

However - if film and videotape are dead, they sure are two mighty undead zombies.

Marc, it simply helps for readers of this board. Everyone uses it. It is not only polite to use it, it also helps you to structure your text and allows the reader to identify quote and reply. *sigh* Its not -my- test. If you would read the tests - they have been conducted at panavision, stage 2, were monitored by senior members of several european national cinematographer associations and the itu is hardly suspicious of being biased in any direction. Independent from country, Arri or Panavision gear - in the typical distribution chain, the 35mm film process doesn´t resolve 2k at the end on the screen. In S16, and especially 16, the bottleneck is typically the stock. Furthermore, red shoots 2k with S16 coverage, not 4k. i suppose 4k would be a little bit over the top for our zeiss s16 primes. yes, yes and yes. You simply embed Redcode in QT (takes seconds) and then Quicktime-capable applications can directly access the images. No. Premiere handles 4k just fine. You will want a powerful computer (and raids) however. For monitoring: If you are budget-sensitive: IBM T220 would be a good solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors We were thinking about an Sony SRX 4k, however, as red announced 4k projectors as well, we wil probably wait as the investment for the srx is pretty risky and high. For playback besides redcode: Budget: DVS Hydra, Keisoku Giken oder Quovis, a little bit more powerful Clipster, Quantel iQ/pablo might be good choices. Or you wait some months and use standard pc-graphics card. If you go the cheap route, you can get professional results already with Adobe or Apple or discreets desktop solutions... However it will consume more time, especially for longform. For shortforms (as commercials etc) these inexpensive systems can be pretty powerful. For longform however, i would recommend to use facilities as ours - or even larger. You imply that Soderbergh and Jackson, Rodney Chartes or David Stump etc have been bribed? PJ made it very clear that he didn´t want and got -any- financial compensation. Wealthy folks as him or Soderbergh certainly aren´t lured by $17.500, btw. So are Genesis (B. Singer, M. Gibson etc), Viper (M. Mann, D. Fincher etc), Sony HDCAM (G. Lucas, Wachowski Bros, J. Cameron, R. Altman etc). The times are changing Mark - digital aquisition instead of film is usual. Not only in the A-budget world. Hm. It records through 35mm lenses. It records on a S35mm sensor. Its optical systems are compatible with standard 35mm gear. Its workflow is designed to co-exist and integrate in todays 35mm D.I. Its users in the field use it instead or together with film (35mm, that is). Hm. I remember when, ~7 years ago, the -exact- same discussions surrounded nikon, canon and hasselblad. "Its not an SLR, its digital!". Now look where this market is today. Nikon and Canon only develop new SLRs basing on sensors instead of film. Panavision latest camera - S35 sensor. Arris D20 - S35 sensor. For me the writing on the wall is crystal clear. Your opinion might be different, but i recommend you: don´t be shocked if you see how surprisingly fast the translation from mechanical/analogue to digital goes once a market is beginning to transform. I saw multitrack audio and DAWs, i saw steenbeck and NLE, i saw Photocameras and DSLRs, Vinyl and CD, typewriter and wordprocessor... to many examples to list. I never saw the opposite. First of all, it has no CCD. It has, as Arris or Panavisions cameras a CMOS Sensor. Then - debayering isn´t linedoubling. All top-photographic brands use exactly that system on all of their top-cameras. Moving or still image. Japanese, American or European. The 12 MP sensor in the Red indeed resolves more than 4k. That is necessary to obtain a debayered 4k image. The red is simply another tool. I someone says, as Peter Jackson, that it surpasses 35mm and would rather challenge 65mm, ok - but that isn´t why we bought the camera. For us it simply solves many problems we had on hdcam or on film and offers creative possibilities we had on film or hdcam. Just one example - we had overcranking on film, but runtime, noise and monitoring was problematic. These problems were solved with hdcam, however hdcam only offered so-so overcranking. The quality we saw doesn´t need to be compared to whatever format - the images are excellent. Its much better than good enough. And with that pricepoint we can use it on smaller productions as well as on our best productions - which simplifies workflows quite a bit. Furthermore i really like the possibility to actually -choose- DOF between 16 and 35. For documentary, wildlife, sports etc 35 DOF can be pretty problematic, especially if your focuspuller doesn´t have its best day or the critter to be recorded is deciding to do one 180 degree turn after the other. I think it is always good to embrace new possibilities and to put them to creative use.

Ah Daniel, forgot to mention . it seems possible that we will shoot some 4k stock in oceania this winter. fiji & moorea would certainly on the list then!

As i mentioned (also elsewhere) - boeing and airbus might disagree on that one. Anyhow, red said -knock on wood- that they intend to start shipping next week, so lets hope that we will be able to settle this within some weeks from here. Do you have any figures how many camera bodies aari, aaton and panavision manufacture together in one year? Now, you should decide yourself. Do you want to measure marketshare in a) sales b) delivery c) usage? Daniel, no pun intended - but they could loose 75% of their customers and would still be delivering most of all 35mm camera manufacturers, correct?

I second that - we had to learn it looong ago the expensive way that a test would have been wise....