Brandon Robinson

there is about 4 shots, some close up, some wide enough to see the actors feet on the ground. I want to make sure I can get a good key, but lighting on the actor is very important.

Hey guys,

I will be working on a project where the footage is 35mm to digibeta and would like to know if you had any recommendations for how to light a green cyc where the talent has to walk on it. Their feet will be in the shot and all the green has to be replaced. Normally I would use kino supergreen, but I dont want green on the talent. What do you think?

While on subject do you think it could be better to go 35mm to DPX vs SD, there is a huge cost differential, would it help in this case?

I will be working on a spot, the shoot is greenscreen with tracking markers, actors will be placed into a CG environment, the shots will ultimately be edited and output SD, but I have an issue. I have done this before, but the workflow was less than desireable.

35mm to digibeta to digital files

key green add background

35mm color correct

35mm CC'd footage back into key and re-comped

background CC'd to best match color corrected talent

This was the workflow the last 2 times I had this project, but I was wondering if you guys maybe have a better route, when should the color correct happen? I don't like having to redo the key and readjust for a shifted plate when the color corrected shots come back. Can I just output the comp using the best light footage and then color correct the combined talent and cg background?

What has worked or not worked for you?

Most likely its not. Since all proccessing happens at a great bit rate inside one chip (I think 14 bit, but I am not sure on the HVX) its unlikely they provided a D/A converter in the same bit depth. What most likely happens, from a cost perspective, is the proccessor adjusts gama and color levels, then compresses in chip to whatever is being recorded. That in turn gets sent to the recording unit (tape or P2) and to a decoder that makes a composite or component signal. Since a similar translator is needed for the camera to play back pre-recorded data, its unlikely they provided more than one to deal with the uncompressed comming from the chip. That means compressed output.

 

If you are truely worried about true uncompressed HD or SD out, then your best bet would be the XH-1 from cannon, or their new HDV model, loosley based on the GL-2. They both have HD-SDI out. They are the only models I am aware of in that price range that has an SDI output. To record you do need a computer or HDCAM-SR deck on hand. Hope that helps.

Thanks thats what I was looking for, I'll look into the XH-1

During a shoot, is the 'component out' signal truely uncompressed, or does it contain artifacts from dvcpro codec processing?

If you record to tape and playback through the component out, it does contain the artifacts, but I am wondering if the output during a shoot is more data, and can that be digitized to a disk directly?

When my company gets their film footage telecine'd we get weave reduction, so it looks smoother than if was projected, that helps alot for losing jitter, past that sometimes we run a software stabilization, but Stephen is right it loses resolution, but we need that for compositing often

If its a look you like, you can always add some cam shake or jitter in post

Hi Montage,

First off you may want to consider a 2K transfer for several reasons. The transfer will cost more, and processing the 4K files will make your composite super slow, not to mention that you will only be able to see about 2K scaled down anyways depending on your monitor. Past that you would be able to work on the footage with any hard drive, unless you want to playback realtime (aside from cached preview). If you want to playback 2K realtime you are looking at an expensive system and also about 12 drives striped together (expensive too), 4K realtime realistically doesn't exist until you go out to film. Contact me directly if you need help with some visual effects or more advise.

-Brandon

PS most features are worked on in 2K still

This can be fixed pretty easily just so you know. We have had to do this in the past at my company, but we rent cameras and use various telecine places, so for us it was not worth looking into 'how it happened', but if this is your cam, you might have a problem

So there are plenty of cams that can capture 10 bit colorspace, but is there a studio monitor or computer monitor that can display this information without interpretting to 8 bit. I found one at siggraph (Sunnybrook HDR ) that claim they can display higher than 10 bits per channel, but it didnt have a fast refresh so useless really for video I feel. I am looking for a 10 bit display for a video installation piece, so if you know of one and are also interested I am open to working on group projects.

-Brandon

It doesnt matter too much if you edit with AVID or Premiere, because you will digitize according to what each of those programs would want. As long as your SDI card works with premiere you should be fine, what you need to be concerned with is if your computer can digitize uncompressed, your drives have to handle something around 40 MB a second, if they can't then you need a more expensive drive solution, or you have to edit at a lower resolution. As for the digitization you need to decide on an uncompressed codec that will work for you, AVIDs is built in, but your card should have its own also.

thanks for the help, we are going 35mm vision-2 5217 shooting 3 perf

5217 (Vision-2 200T) is the most popular stock for shooting chroma key stage work in 35mm.

Thanks David we have discussed this and are going with that stock

Thanks for the offer Ben, I'll know how juicy the footage is after we shoot, but it looks to be good,

Thanks for all the advise, it is coming down to the line and we are all still scrambling to decide

35mm film or HD

all the comments have been great, I will be doing a more accurate cost comparison, as of now I'm leaning towards the F950 route, but cost will ultimately choose for us

And though it is risky, I am considering a direct to disk digitize from the F950 where we could see the footage instantly and even begin working on the green screen during the shoot, just a thought

Well after further discussion with my team, they are telling me that with some deals they got, the film will definitely cost less, and the director would prefer it, 'his only experience being in film', I would prefer tyhe film look, but I do alot of post and also like a lot of control , so if it comes down to it have to being film, what film should we use?

and as far as everything I read, there should be a similar amount of information in a 2K scan to DPX vs a 10bit 444 digitize from the SRW1, sound right?

any advise, or advise for where to get a cheap stage for the green screen work?

"WILL TRADE FX WORK FOR HELP!"

Thanks again, you guys are great!

I will be doing a special effects driven short in may, there is loads of green screen and matchmoving work to do. Our production team is of 2 thoughts right now:

shoot with the F950--->SRW-1--->HD ingest--->QT or DPX--->export DV dailies---->edit---->final conform

shoot in 35mm film---->telecine dailies---->edit----->telecine edited film to DPX or QT---->final conform

This is a 5 day shoot, and many shots will have entire greenscreen backdrops for digital environments.

The cost seem to be comparable unless there is a deal we do not know about out there.

The F950 is hard to come by and expensive, so the cost of renting the F950 and the SRW-1 deck

and the cost of a HD ingest or HD ingest system purchase really start to add up.

Ultimately I want true 10bit DPX files (4:4:4 colorspace) with sharp detail.

So what do you guys think HD or 35mm film?

If 35mm, what film stock is best for greenscreen work?

Thanks

-Brandon

I will be doing a special effects driven short in may, there is loads of green screen and matchmoving work to do. Our production team is of 2 thoughts right now:

shoot with the F950--->SRW-1--->HD ingest--->QT or DPX--->export DV dailies---->edit---->final conform

shoot in 35mm film---->telecine dailies---->edit----->telecine edited film to DPX or QT---->final conform

This is a 5 day shoot, and many shots will have entire greenscreen backdrops for digital environments.

The cost seem to be comparable unless there is a deal we do not know about out there.

The F950 is hard to come by and expensive, so the cost of renting the F950 and the SRW-1 deck

and the cost of a HD ingest or HD ingest system purchase really start to add up.

Ultimately I want true 10bit DPX files (4:4:4 colorspace) with sharp detail.

So what do you guys think HD or 35mm film?

If 35mm, what film stock is best for greenscreen work?

Thanks

-Brandon

I am doing a shoot in May, we originally wanted the F950 with SRW-1 deck to capture 444 color 10 bit data, then have a house give us SD dailies and for the online we would receive a DPX sequence (10 bit 4:4:4)

We need to do alot of greenscreen as well as matchmoving and color grading, we decided that 4:4:4 gives us all the latitude we need, but the cost of the F950 plus deck is hard to come by and expensive none the less. Would you guys think it might be better to shoot super 16 with a 100 speed stock or 35mm, what is the cost difference in your eyes (HDCAM-SR to DPX, vs 35mm to DPX) they both should be outputting full 10 bit 4:4:4 (1920x1080 vs 2K) Correct???

As a side note, would anyone be interested in jumping in on our shoot to help with costs and expertise in NYC?

thanks in advance, you are all so helpful

cool thanks, I'll call them too, now my thing is do i want to atempt the viper, with its 10 bit log, thats alot of information, does anybody have comments on how the filmstream footage effects post, looks like an extra step but it may be worth it

ok I will give them a call, thanks for the contact

As for the Viper, based purely on reviews and data I had chosen the F950, is there a real winner, is one easier to adapt to than the other?

Do you guys have any advise on shooting log, i have heard that the filmstream mode is similar to the F950s 10bit throughput except it has a green hue, does this effect post much?

Again I haven't shot log before, is there a device that will convert to lin for the preview monitors?

:blink:

I will be shooting in april and need to secure an F950, the job requires 4:4:4 HD shooting at 24p, the best bet is the F950 but the options are hard to locate, I found plus8 digital will rent but it appears to be 2000 a day and I need the cam for a week, which kills my budget for this experimental work. Does anyone know of another place to rent it from in New York City or if there is a place outside of NY that would ship or allow long distance transporting. Thanks for any help or if you would like to talk shop a bit I would appreciate that also.