Boris Belay

Wow, thanks for all the quick answers... It's already changing the impression I had gotten from the forum about the NPR being a lot of people's cheaply-priced sound camera choice. Is that because I've emphasized ergonomics and hand-held shooting, which is not the NPR's strong point, to say the least ? Is it noticeably noisier than the ACL, for example ? Does it make sense over a blimped H16 EL in terms of noise ? And to the defenders of the NPR : what are its advantages ? Why woudn't you trade yours for another model ? Otherwise yes, the ACL seemed like the right compromise, short of a very cheap Aaton kit ! So, two things : what are the things to definitely watch out for on an ACL ? I'm aware of the 1/1.5/2 differences and a bit about the British-made cameras, as well as the viewfinder issues. Are there things that are likely to go/have gone wrong on an ACL ? Ways to tell it's been overused ? Then, what are definite bonus/improvements that make one kit better than another ? And finally, are cheaper Aatons likely to be a bad deal -- because they're old after all and they wouldn't sell for cheap if they were still good ? Or are people a lot more attracted to the specs and reliability of newer models and not so interested in the older ones (as is the case, for instance with Bolex EL's : the early Mark 1 are substantially cheaper than the Mark 3, despite only 5 years difference in design and only minor improvements) ? -B.

Hi Nathan, thanks for your response. I am just talking about the basic camera kit as I described it, I have all the rest, tripod, filters, lightmeter, etc. included, since I already shoot. And I am talking eBay prices here, and yes, with all the risks involved ! But with a repair manual, I can find my way around a good deal of problems. And, besides the price issue, my question is really about these cameras -- their respectie qualities and drawbacks... If $3000 is necessary, I'll save up some more (sell one more Bolex). And if an Aaton LTR is really superior to an NPR and costs $5,000, I may decide to save even more. In fact, that was my basic idea, but people's response to other questions on this forum have made me think the price difference isn't really justifiable... Is it ? (Somebody has just started another thread about the next price range, one up from me : is the price difference between a 10,000 Arri SR justified against a good ACL ? My question is the same, but for cheaper cameras.) Perhaps I should say that I am not a professional DP and don't mean to become one. I shoot personal projects on my own budgets, I don't rent equipment, and I don't work with a traditional film team. H16's have been great for that so far, but I want to shoot sound easily too. -Thanks !

PS. Shoulder work is essential. Thus the ergonomics question. (And if you have particular details to add like specific handgrips that help the comfort of a particular model, that's good to know too.)

No you don't. The voltage regulator is needed when using an MCE-17B with a MM magazine motor, and optional otherwise. On your cord, the Red-tipped lead is +, the Black-tipped one is - , and the middle one is just a fastener to the power pack (it should end in a metal ring). So, just get a 24V. DC source : either batteries or power adapter, just make sure it's DC out, and connect the + and - terminals and you're set for 2 min. 50 s. of 24 ips action ! The trigger is that little switch that pulls out under the camera : pushed in is continuously running (or on/off through remote cord or electric handgrip), and pulled out is the trigger : forward starts it. And remember to set the speed on the camera speed dial ! -B

OK, this Bolex man is ready for a silent, shoulder-mounted camera. Big step, as I've been a Bolex user, advocate, and fixer for a while now. (So any reference to Bolex models you know will help in your answers too.) Let's just say that an EL with zoom, mag, crystal, and barney is a bit much for a single wrist... and still not so silent. I'll always keep a late Rex-5 with 3 Switar primes for everywhere, all-th-time filming, but I also need a camera conveived for sound. So, I'm looking toward Eclairs and Aatons (must be the French in me !). But... first major consideration is a budget of up to US$ 2,500. I'm talking eBay $ here, not authorized dealer prices. I'm willing to put up with a used kit that needs a minor tune-up, if I have to, and I know all the eBay ropes, so that's the cheapest way to go. This price is for a basic kit : camera body, cystal motor (different speeds is a plus, but not required at first), a couple of mags, and a decent zoom lens (obviously not the latest Zeiss 10-100 series for this price!). This would be a starting set, with the possiblity of expanding later. Super-16, if not already built-in, should definitely be an easy option. In terms of optics, I already have a couple of Eclair mount Angénieux. And a lot of C-mount lenses of course. So Eclair and C mount are an advantage, but not a requirement. So, what are the respective advantages of the Eclair NPR, the Eclair ACL, and the cheaper Aaton models (LTR?) ? Which other camera would you suggest ? CPs seem nice, but I'm weary of the mount limits (availability of lenses). Arri S and BL don't seem to do it for me, but I'm willing to be convinced... One of the reason I'm actually starting this thread is because I've been surprised at how many people still recommend the NPR over models that were designed more recently. Ergonomics are important to me, and it looks awkward to hold, and I would have assumed that Aatons where hands down better, but it seems that this camera has big fans. So, let me know what you think, both in terms of (on paper) characteristics and real-world use. And also ease of maintenance and repair (given that I like to fix things myself). Thanks ! -Boris

Yes, that's the power cord to the MCE-17B motor. Do you have the tension regulator add-on ? (it mounts underneath the motor, near the base of the camera. Do you have a magazine and magazine motor ? -B

Sure, there are. But first practical question : do you have the power cord to the motor (three-pronged)? If you do, you're good to go : all you need is any battery or DC-current power adapter of the right voltage. And the right voltage is that which is written on the motor, which depends on your filming speed (set on the camera, but demanding more or less power from the motor). There are two columns : one for the H8 model, the other for the H16 (yours). I think you need 24V. for 24/25ips... so that's very simple. You can even couple two 12V. batteries to get 24V., or just get a 24 V. battery or power adapter (DC !). I have a manual somewhere, so I'll check the +/- connections. Do you have the Tension regulator module too (mounted beneath the motor) -- you should, since your camera is a Rex-5 and it's necessary for the magazine motor. Anyways, I have the docs on these somewhere. -B

Do you mean that it has the mount for the 120m. magazine on top of the camera ? Or are you just going by the serial number ? -B

Indeed, whether flat base or not, on later models it's under the camera, by the tripod mounting screw hole : look for an engraved 6-digit number between 100,xxx and 350,xxx. On cameras before 100,00 or so (more like 120,000), the serial number is engraved inside the film chamber : either above the top spool spindle and/or inside the camera door (matching numbers, hopefully). -B.

Just done lubricating another H16... something else that's easy to oil, from the outside of the camera this time, are the motor axles. (Again, use good quality light mechanical oil, such as those for sewing machines.) Both the 8/1 (or rewind handle axle) and 1/1 motor axles (on M/S/Rex-4 and later models) can use a drop of oil inside the shaft, against the axle itself. The oil will drip along the axle down to the inside mounting plate and lubricate the motor axle bearing. Another drop of oil along the shaft of the spring motor crank (along the shaft, not inside the thread) will help lubricate the sring rewinding mechanism. That should about do for light maintenance, and may even help slow or generally 'cranky' H16s ! -B.

(This is the same post I wrote in the 'Bolex EL repair manual' thread, but it makes more sense to have it here, so I'm copying here) Regarding lubrication of H16s, EL included, I assume, here's what I got from the regulal H16 maintenance manual (for the lubrication points that are reachable without dismantling the camera) : You can put a drop of oil on the axle-ends that you can see turning inside the film chamber when the camera runs. It's a little hard to explain in writing, but basically you can see the end of 3 axles to be lubricated : 1 above the upper film-feeding mechanism and 2 by the upper claw. (To see the claw mechanism, you need to remove the pressure plate, then unscrew 2 small screws that hold a protective plate over the claw mechanism). One very small drop of low viscosity mechanical oil on he end of each of these axles as they turn (camera running) should help (wipe the excess afterwards with a cotton bud). If you're feeling adventurous, you can also go for a drop of oil on the variable shutter sprockets (Obviously not on the EBM or EL, without VS), which you can see when the prism is flipped out. This may help lessen the noise on an old Reflex with a noisy shutter mechnaism. None of this is 'official', only adapted from the Bolex maintenance manual and doable without dismantling anything (apart from the claw protection plate). And of course, you need the right tool or method to drop only one small drop of oil at a time. also, invest in good small screwdrivers, if don't already have them -- they're well worth the price to avoid a destroyed screw that can't be removed anymore... Working cleanly, carefully, and sensibly (no cooking oil, please !), anyone can do this bit of maintenance themselves. By the way, I do recommend buying a Bolex repair manual to anyone interested in lubricating their cameras or doing small repairs. They're great reference, will help you understand the camera and be less afraid of it, will get you out of trouble in a pinch (on location problems !), and all of that for $25 on eBay (I'm not the one selling them either!). Just make sure you get the one that's right for your camera -- but since Bolex compiled them as the models evolved, you might as well get a late one (SB/SBM + EBM, and all before) and be safe. -B

By the way (since this was a topic n repair manuals), I do recommend buying a Bolex repair manual to anyone interested in lubricating their cameras or doing small repairs. They're great reference, will help you understand the camera and be less afraid of it, will get you out of trouble in a pinch (on location problems !), and all of that for $25 on eBay (I'm not the one selling them either!). Just make sure you get the one that's right for your camera -- but since Bolex compiled them as the models evolved, you might as well get a late one (SB/SBM + EBM, and all before) and be safe. Still no EL manual in sight, though... I'll have to open up another EL to compare with my faulty one. I would document the repair too, but it's so time consuming, I'm not sure I'm up for it...

Gregor, Thanks for the offer, but still no manual to be found anywhere... The most vexing thing is the Bolex 16 Pro maintenance manual (super, super rare) actually on eBay, but nothing for the EL... Regarding lubrication of H16s, EL included, I assume, here's what I got from the regulal H16 maintenance manual (for the lubrication points that are reachable without dismantling the camera) : You can put a drop of oil on the axle-ends that you can see turning inside the film chamber when the camera runs. It's a little hard to explain in writing, but basically you can see the end of 4 or 5 axes around the upper film-feeding mechanism and by the upper claw. (To see the claw mechanism, you need to remove the pressure plate, then unscrew 2 small screws that hold a protective plate over the claw mechanism). One drop of low visosity mechanical oil on he end of each of these axes as they turn (camera running) may help (wipe the excess afterwards with a cotton bud). If you're feeling adventurous, you can also go for a drop of oil on the variable shutter sprockets (Obviously not on the EBM or EL, without VS), which you can see when the prism is flipped out. This may help lessen the noise on an old Reflex with a noisy shutter mechnaism. None of this is 'official', only adapted from the Bolex maintenance manual and doable without dismantling anything (apart from the claw protection plate). And of course, you need the right tool or method to drop only one small drop of oil at a time. Working cleanly, carefully, and sensibly (no cooking oil, please !) anyone can do this bit of maintenance themselves. -B

Ian, The MST (or later, and similar EM) motors are really OK if you don't need the variable speed (and they'll drive an MM magazine motor on your M5). I would definitely prefer those over MCE-17B and other kinds of Unimotors ((if yo don't need their multiple speed flexibility) for the simple reason that you don't use the camera speed dial with the MST, and so your speed setting will be more precise. Synch-pulse sound recording sounds like a big headache at this point, so if you don't shoot crystal, I would still recommend you get a good fixed-speed motor and do audio adjustments on your computer (if you use one, of course). You'll be close enough, esp. if your takes are short. The MST also runs on 12V., which is very convenient, and its battery pack is not really a problem. You have 3 possible solutions (given that most are dead now) : change the connector on the motor to XLR (mildly complicated), find the right connector from a site that sells them (Tuchel 6 or 7 poles, depending on the motor version) and connect it to a battery pack of your choice (I have the electrical diagrams, so it's a simple +/- soldering job) ; or get a bad MST battery pack, remove the old cells (easy) and either find a new battery that fits in the original container along with the charging circuitry, so you have a charger/battery unit as convenient but more powerful than the original Bolex unit. I've done that, it's simple, and when I need more power, I go to method 2. Of course, if all your shooting is indoor, you can also use the MST powerpack to power the MST motor off a wall socket, even with the original bad cells in the power pack. So, in my opinion, the MST motor is really a bargain for cheap shooting with decent speed accuracy. If you get the motor and power pack separately, just make sure you get compatible ones : same Tuchel connectors, either both 6 poles (older models) or both 7 poles (newer). For twice that money, you can also step up to the nice, crystal-controlable (add-on by Bolex or Tobin), multi-speed Bolex ESM motor, which is basically the motor and circuitry of an EBM camera in an external package. (The ESM, MST, and EM, all need the 1/1 drive shaft of the Rex-4/M4/S-4 cameras -- just a reminder to other readers.) And of course, Clive tobin's motors would be even one step up, and well-worth the money : not only better electronics and built-in crystal speeds, but also a brand new motor that's guaranteed to work (thanks, Clive for supporting our old Bolex cameras!). So, all of this info is obviously only to make the best of available gear for the least money -- it's obviously simpler to have more advanced gear, but the most important is to shoot, and there are solutions for every budget out there ! -B

Matt, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at... you have an animation motor (with a timer ?) but no shutter timing on the motor, right ? (I'm not familiar with that JK motor, which is not on their site anymore.) So you want to trigger the motor manually (I suspect), but unplug the motor at each frame (or reduce its voltage, but I find that a very iffy solution : the motor will either not start, or be very unreliable, I imagine), in order to get the shutter time you want. That sounds very convoluted, unreliable, and frankly not the best way to start on those films you are so excited about. The H16SB is a very good camera, so you've got a good base there. It sounds like the motor you got may not be appropriate for you purpose. Knowing JK, I'm sure it's very good too, so it would be a shame to underpower it and lose the whole point of its precise electical characteristics. I would suggest that you do yourself a favor (and spare the time and trials of getting this undervoltage thing right), and trade that motor for one that has shutter timings built in or the ability to use the variable shutter timing ('T' setting on the 'I/T' knob) in the single-frame mode of your SB. Or else, just get more lighting... You say you don't have pro lighting : do you really need it ? How about just plain halogen lamps with some kind of diffusing or reflective material ? If you're doing animantion in a fixed place, it wouldn't be hard to set up (more difficult to build moveable lighting). The fixed shutter timing ('I' setting on the 'I/T' knob) in single-frame mode on the SB is 1/30th of a second. Could you not work with that and rely on the camera's precise mechanics (or your motor's) ? This seems all the more important since every frame counts in animation and you need to know your set-up is right. -B

The electric motor is an obvious solution, but only if the problem is with the spring... If something is wrong with any mechanical part running when using the motor (shutter, release that sticks out, frozen drive axles,...), you'll be no better off. So try my tests first (and do get a rewind crank as it's useful for many things, including removing jammed film -- not that that's ever happened to me on a H16 !). And if you do get a motor, I suggest the MCE-17B for variable speed, but if you only do 24/25 ips shooting, a better value is the MST motor or the more recent EM motor ($50 on eBay if you're patient), both using the 1/1 motor axle of the M4/M5 models. The ESM motor is even better but far more expensive ($200+). -B

Hi, The first thing to do is to run the camera without the spring motor engaged, ie, to run it with the rewind handle (Srping lever on '0' and side release locked into running position). You can run it backwards (rewind) or forward, and this will tell you if the problem is with the spring (if the camera runs smoothly with the rewind crank) or something else, in which case, the camera will not run run well with the rewind crank. Possible problems are with the shutter (bent), release (I've seen faulty releases on M4s before), or some of the axles in the film-advance mechanism. When run through the rewind crank, the camera should run smoothly and easily up to the speed indicated on the speed dial. Play with the speed dial too, as any mechanical part on these 40 year old cameras can be stuck and prevent the camera from running. Re-engage the spring motor a few times and see whether it starts running -- I've had several stuch H16 that started running again after this simple trick. I'm not sure what an 'overwould' H16 is... there is a security on the spring system that prevents the spring from being overwound, and unless the camera has been completely dismantled to get to the spring assembly, I don't see why that security would have failed. You may have a broken spring, though. To see if that is the problem, set the camera in the rewind cranking position (as above) and crank the main motor crank clockwise (opposite the spring winding direction) : if the camera runs when cranked this way, the spring is probably broken. Boris

You're totally right. Bolex Reflex 'lose' about 25% light to their fixed prism system (justified by other advantages). And the EBM, EL, and M models have a different fixed shutter angle of 170 deg. Elliot, you should get a Bolex Reflex manual so that you have the table for actual exposure times and compensated exposure times for every shutter angle (variable shutter) and filming speed combinations. These are in the bak of the manuals. They are also reproduced here (great site, by the way, check the rest out) : http://www.city-net.com/~fodder/bolex/shutter.html -B

Hi Jonathan, I remember wondering about these strange beasts a while back too. I did an internet serch an came up with one or two nuts trying to work with them... Fun! They belong with the suitcase-fitting Super 8 projectors that businessmen took to trade shows in the 70's. Obviously, the films must be worth a good viewing (and laugh!)... there's got to be stocks of these cartridges somewhere, but I'm sure they're disappearing fast, with all the 'outsourcing' (ie, factory closures) going on... So, clearly, the cartridges are the main problem : they're rare, they're short, and if you want to stuff them with your own film, they're hell ! But those crazy sites somewhere in web-lala-land will give you all the indications necessary... and for those synch audio tracks too !! I seem to remember they were also sold under another brand name, but my brain is too full of other crazy film machines to be sure at this point... Have fun ! -B

(PM cleared!) That looks like a nice, serious kit... a bit pricey perhaps, but you're buying peace of mind from a serious seller, it looks like. It's definitely a Reflex, but do you know whether it's a Rex-4 or Rex-5 (with 120m. Magazine option) ? Either are good, serious cameras, but the Rex-5 is obviously more flexible. As for the lenses, the Angénieux primes included are not RX-specified, so you may run into focusing problems with them somewhere along the line. (Search the forums for details on the H16RX lens specificities if you're not aware of this issue). For your peace of mind, I would sell or trade these lenses to complete your set of Kern Switars (a 10 and a 75 would be nice) -- if those Switars are RX-specified indeed ! -B

What is your budget ? Some of the better eBay seller will offer a return option on their cameras (and these are obviously serious sellers in the first place, so the camera is probably good). Or you should at least look for a 'film-tested' kit by somebody who's shot with that camera -- that's the second best option. For the money you were apparently willing to put in that late Rex-5 (13x. VF), you should indeed be able to find a nice standard EBM package with a Kern Vario-Switar 16-100 (better than the Angénieux 12-120, I think), and 1 or 2 mags. Make sure you get the EBM grip with it (necessary for running the camera, but sometimes not included) and the MM (or WM) motor for he magazines. $1000 would be a good price for that kit, more if it's from a good dealer on eBay. Or again, don't you have a camera shop in your area ? I'm personally all for eBay, but a shop is a safer option for a first camera in that price range. -B

Tim, I wouldn't worry much about an EL. What year is it ? Which series ? There is no user lubrication required on H16's and your tech (if you have one) takes care of that when you take it in. If you really want to, you can put a drop of oil on the axes that you can see turning inside the film chamber when the camera runs. It's a little hard to explain in writing, but basically you can see the end of 4 or 5 axes around the upper film-feeding mechanism and by the upper claw (to see the claw mechanism, you need to remove the pressure plate, then unscrew 2 small screws that hold a protective plate over the claw mechanism). One drop of medium thick oil on he end of each of these axes as they turn (camera running) may help (wipe the excess afterwards with a cotton bud). But it sounds like your camera runs well, so perhaps it's not necessary at all... besides learning a little bit more about your favorite machine !

Too expensive. The Rex-5 with 13x. viewfinders are very rare and cost too much compared to the regular models (10x. Viewfinder), at least for a first camera. The Rex-5 is a good model because of the possibility to add the 120m. magazine if you need longer shooting, but you shouldn't pay much more than $600-800 for a basic kit off eBay, in my opinion. (From a shop with an overhaul and a warranty, it would be a different story, of course... Do you know of shops doing 16mm. cameras in your area?) For the same $800, you might also be able to find an EBM kit with a Kern zoom or some fixed focal lenses. If you don't mind the batteries and cables, an electric H16 may be a good choice for you.

This means the camera (Rex-4/M-4/S-4 and later) is equipped with a motor shaft that moves one image for one motor axis rotation (thus the 1:1). This is nice if you need precision drive (as with animation, for instance), and allows you to use modern motors like the ESM, EM, MST... Generally speaking, these late cameras are also in better shape than earlier ones. If you want to post the auction you're bidding on, I'll look at it for you and give you my opinion. Cheers, B

All Bolex H16 since the mid-50's accept BOTH single and double perf film. Obviously, if you want to shoot S-16, you need single-perf... But I'm confused about what camera you bought : the (not-yet-over) eBay auction you refer to in another thread is not a Reflex model (and not the best camera to shoot with for that price). Have you bought two cameras ? And I do agree with Trevor : don't rush into this. Get more info from here and elsewhere, make sure you ask (yourself) the right questions about the filming you want to do and the gear necessary, and only then scout for the right camera !