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Jonathan Bryant

HVX DEMO VIDEO

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I just got the HVX Countdown DVD in the mail. Was any of that shot with the HVX? Didn't look like it, looked like varicam and 16mm. Sorta a big let down.

 

My understanding is, none of it was. Indeed disappointing. Perhaps the next demo will.

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The version currently being shipped is 2.1. Version 3 will contain HVX footage, and should be available in December.

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The version currently being shipped is 2.1. Version 3 will contain HVX footage, and should be available in December.

 

Hi,

 

Are you sure you are not connected with Panasonic.

 

Stephen

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Hi,

 

Are you sure you are not connected with Panasonic.

 

Stephen

Yeah I would have to ask the same question. But if he is maybe he can tell us what the ccd specs are. What is the resolution of the ccds and what Fstop are they rated at 2000lux.

 

My question is how do you and JVC plan on selling cameras without giving out specs and footage filmed by the camera?

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Yeah I would have to ask the same question. But if he is maybe he can tell us what the ccd specs are. What is the resolution of the ccds and what Fstop are they rated at 2000lux.

 

My question is how do you and JVC plan on selling cameras without giving out specs and footage filmed by the camera?

 

Hey why confuse the marketing effort with *actual pictures* Get up to date, dude :D

 

Sensitivity specs: after many many years I've never paid any attention to them. Shoot with the thing, is it clean or noisy is all I care about......

 

-Sam

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Hey why confuse the marketing effort with *actual pictures* Get up to date, dude :D

 

Sensitivity specs: after many many years I've never paid any attention to them. Shoot with the thing, is it clean or noisy is all I care about......

 

-Sam

There is always a big difference between 1/3rd inch chips and 2/3rds inch chips. A Sony Z1 res doesn't compare to a HDW700 HDCAM. And f8 at 2000lux is a bigggggg difference than f11 or f13 at 2000lux Dude.

 

I want to see both the footage and the specs. But the specs count too. I find it alittle odd that they send out literature that doesn't have the full specs, and a video without ANY footage from the camera.

 

I even think they could come down on the price some more.

 

My thought is this, The video production industry is small in comparision to average american consumers. Why doesn't SONY,Panasonic, and JVC cut prices on HD equipment to barely above cost. Alot of TV stations aren't going to switch until they have to. The more HD production equipment that gets sold then more HD content will become available, which in turn will drive the Jones to go by a new HD Plasma from the Big Box store. Thats who you should be putting your profit margins is in consumer HD products that will fly off store shelves once everything is HD. Weither true or not most consumers are waiting out on an HD tv because the old one analog hasn't broke yet and they don't feel like there is enough HD programming.

 

I wonder how much the P2 Varicam will be. Anybody know?

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OK, the more expensive the electronics, the cleaner the picture.

 

Exceptions here & there but I submit that's as good as a published spec.

 

25 years of this doesn't prove me wrong.

 

-Sam

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Why doesn't SONY,Panasonic, and JVC cut prices on HD equipment to barely above cost. Alot of TV stations aren't going to switch until they have to.

 

Hi,

 

Sony is selling everything it makes BELOW cost. They have not made a profit for 2 years.

 

Stephen

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My question is how do you and JVC plan on selling cameras without giving out specs and footage filmed by the camera?

 

By JVC, are you talking about the HD100? Because they released all the specification on that camera.

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Hi,

 

Are you sure you are not connected with Panasonic.

 

Stephen

I have answered your question before, I am not connected with Panasonic. I am merely here to provide accurate information on this camera which brings many new and revolutionary features never before available to any camera at this price point. Because of these developments, may new questions have been raised and I am happy to help clarify some of the issues that are being discussed.

 

Yeah I would have to ask the same question. But if he is maybe he can tell us what the ccd specs are. What is the resolution of the ccds and what Fstop are they rated at 2000lux.

 

My question is how do you and JVC plan on selling cameras without giving out specs and footage filmed by the camera?

The CCD specs will not be officially released at any time before the camera's release, and at this point it remains to be seen if there will be an official announcement at all. Panasonic is not interested in getting into number wars and battling about what looks best on paper, they would rather let the footage speak for itself.

 

The first available footage released from a final, full working version of the camera has been scheduled to coincide with the DV Expo West Conference on December 7th. This is well in advance of the camera's release. Please be patient.

 

To answer your other question, the AG-HVX200 is rated F8 at 2000 lux.

Edited by Häakon

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I have answered your question before, I am not connected with Panasonic. I am merely here to provide accurate information on this camera which brings many new and revolutionary features never before available to any camera at this price point. Because of these developments, may new questions have been raised and I am happy to help clarify some of the issues that are being discussed.

 

Hi,

 

So how do you get your information? 85% of your posts are about a camera that nobody can buy, so it looks like you have inside information!

 

Stephen

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All of the information is readily available, I just provide it for users who may not understand how something works or haven't done the research to collect the data themselves.

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All of the information is readily available, I just provide it for users who may not understand how something works or haven't done the research to collect the data themselves.

 

Hi,

 

What is strange is you only post about the HVX200!

 

Stephen

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He is with pany.

 

If your not then whats a downside to the HVX? if your not with pany you should have several reasons, I know I already have a few good reasons why its not the best camera.

 

OK, the more expensive the electronics, the cleaner the picture.

 

thats an absurd way to choose a camera. camera manufacturers put money into different features to get to the price they want. Sometimes one portion suffers more than others. Say a manufacturer wants to add XLR audio, well to do that they may have to drop the expensive prism and CCD block for a cheaper version, or maybe the lense doesnt get that extra coating it needs to increase resolution and color.

 

Its a give and take situation, and given that there are several cameras at any price point, its absurd to say they would all look the same. specs are important because if you know what they mean, then you know what you are giving up for a certain feature. I have seen SD cams that dont even get to the full SMPTE resolution standard with their CCDs, but upres before compression.

 

i know i only have 8 years experience to your 25, but come on, whos foolin who around here?

 

and Häakon, tell the boys at panny to start a user input forum. I would like to have a say in what the next camera they push on us would have, I know many others would too. maybe we can put an end to cameras designed to be used by professionals, but shapped and presented as a consumer. the prosumer look = hard control over a simple device like a camera.

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Hi,

 

What is strange is you only post about the HVX200!

 

Stephen

I only post about the AG-HVX200 because it's the only upcoming HD camera in this price range that looks promising to me. I'm have no desire for an extremely compressed 25mbps HDV alternative, and unfortunately (due to choices from all of the other manufacturers, not Panasonic), this eliminates essentially all of its direct competition. Yes, I know the XL H1 does uncompressed out via HD SDI, but you'd need a very expensive deck and high powered workstation to do anything with the footage. At that cost, I'd look to a 2/3" camera instead.

 

The AG-HVX200 is also currently the only camera in its range offering tapeless acquisition - something that I wholeheartedly believe is the future of filmmaking. Some may not like the current "low" capacities of P2 or their price, but after working with both 35mm and 16mm film on several projects, I can say from experience that the amount you'd pay for stock when creating a quality short film (not to mention processing, developing, and telecine costs) is no more than what you'd pay for just one P2 card (and then of course you can use and reuse the P2 card several times over). Additionally, the runtime of P2 is already equivalent or significantly greater than a 400'-1000' mag of film depending on the resolution and framerate you're recording in, and capacities will only continue to grow (while prices continue to fall). For narrative filmmakers like myself, P2 is nothing short of a blessing.

 

As an aside, I currently own a Canon DSLR camera; I'm not brand-loyal to any company. I've bought Sony gear for years. I can merely see the amazing strengths of the AG-HVX200 and realize that it's the only camera anywhere near its price range that can do the multitude of things it is capable of, and this is why I have spent so much time researching it (and subsequently, offering that information with others).

 

He is with pany.

 

If your not then whats a downside to the HVX? if your not with pany you should have several reasons, I know I already have a few good reasons why its not the best camera.

First of all, you + are = you're, but I digress.

 

I am not "with" Panasonic. I just happen to be very well versed about this camera because I have significant interest in it. No more, no less.

 

It definitely has features that can be looked at as "downsides." Compared to the JVC and Canon offerings, the most obvious is that the lens isn't interchangable. Of course, the fact that neither of those companies have a good variety of compatible HD lenses to choose from is something that most supporters of those cameras love to overlook (as far as I'm aware, the "default" lens that comes with the XL H1 is the only lens currently available for Canon's camera - which, for now, makes the "interchangability" option moot), but I'm sure more lenses will be available in the future and this will eventually expand both of those cameras' usability.

 

The other "downside" I hear most often is people's concern with archiving the footage they shoot with P2. While this is somewhat valid, the short answer is that if you adopt the P2 workflow, you'll find a way to archive it that works best for you. Personally, I'll probably just do 1:1 backups of 8GB P2 cards to DVD-R DL discs until a Blu-Ray solution is affordable and available that gives me more space to work with. Some people will archive to hard drive, some to DLT. There are several options available, it just requires a change in workflow habit. Some people don't like to face change. I can't help that.

 

The fact that it is a 1/3" CCD camera limits its latitude and low-light response, but that holds true for every camera in this price range. In fact, most of the "downsides" I can think of are only downsides compared to other, more expensive cameras.

 

Point being, no other camera offers anywhere near the multitude of features that the AG-HVX200 offers in this price range. For under $6,000, you get a camera that can record 1080 24p/30p/60i AND 720p recording (in a hoard of framerates), PLUS 4:2:2 DVCPRO50 acquisition AND standard-def DV recording to tape to boot! And that's only the beginning! The ability to internally dub/downconvert the variable framerate HD footage to standard-def DV *in camera* and the fact that it's extremely rugged due to its total lack of moving parts put this camera in a class completely on its own. And all of that doesn't even tap into the phenomenal advantages of using P2 media, such as the ability to instantaneously access footage you've shot for review, the fact that it eliminates any need for digitizing/capture competely, or the ability to pre-record footage before you've even started recording, ensuring you don't accidentally miss any key moments. No other competitive cameras offers ANY of those features. That is why the AG-HVX200 is revolutionary, and in my opinion, offers little room for alternative.

 

And Häakon, tell the boys at panny to start a user input forum. I would like to have a say in what the next camera they push on us would have, I know many others would too. maybe we can put an end to cameras designed to be used by professionals, but shapped and presented as a consumer. the prosumer look = hard control over a simple device like a camera.

I'm sure you have as much power to convince Panasonic to do something as I do. Frankly, they've allowed people like Jan to interact with the public, take suggestions from those who care about their products, and refine and improve their cameras based on that input. That is how the AG-DVX100A came about, and that's how many of the features that were implemented in the AG-HVX200 were decided upon as well. I don't know of any other company that does that.

 

There will always be something "more" we could ask for on any product; you can find something wrong with any camera if you really want to. But the AG-HVX200 is an amazing first offering in the realm of prosumer HD/P2, and its one that I think many people are going to take advantage of.

Edited by Häakon

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I only post about the AG-HVX200 because it's the only upcoming HD camera in this price range that looks promising to me.

 

Hi,

 

I look forward to hearing your views on GVG Infinity in due course.

 

Stephen

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Point being, no other camera offers anywhere near the multitude of features that the AG-HVX200 offers in this price range. For under $6,000, you get a camera that can record 1080 24p/30p/60i AND 720p recording (in a hoard of framerates), PLUS 4:2:2 DVCPRO50 acquisition AND standard-def DV recording to tape to boot! And that's only the beginning!

 

IF you act now you can recieve all of this for the discounted rate of $5,992!!! But wait, theres more. we'll throw in this cheese grater/juice maker at no extra cost, but only to the first 50 that call.

 

Give him a bowtie and a scottish accent and I think I have seen that infomercial. I am excited about the JVC HD-100U, Im excited about the GVG Infinity (trying to get my station to buy some) but damn, I would never talk about a camera with such scripted enthusiasm.

 

 

oh and Haakon, I think the real advantage to the interchangable lense is the ability to add a mini35 addaptor without the stock lens. Other cameras with fixed lenses end up passing the mini35 look through a cheap and distorted lens. Light loss, chromatic aberations, and barrel distortions await a P2 user who wants to shed the 1/3 or even 2/3" chip look.

 

the ENG full size P2 cameras look nice, I will admit that, but P2 doesnt make sense for anyone who wants an affordable prosumer HD camera. (and 3P2 cards, the camera and accessories will be more expensive than the HD100U with a mini35 adaptor. anyone with a good set of primes or even still photography lenses should apply.)

 

 

 

FOR THE LIFE OF YOUR CAR!!!! (see the quip about the scottish guy and hopefully I have sparked some flashbacks.)

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IF you act now you can recieve all of this for the discounted rate of $5,992!!! But wait, theres more. we'll throw in this cheese grater/juice maker at no extra cost, but only to the first 50 that call.

Actually, most of the dealers are already offering it for about $5,500 when it hits, and it's only gonna go down from there. :)

 

Give him a bowtie and a scottish accent and I think I have seen that infomercial. I am excited about the JVC HD-100U, Im excited about the GVG Infinity (trying to get my station to buy some) but damn, I would never talk about a camera with such scripted enthusiasm.

I'm sorry if my enthusiasm seems "scripted." I've certainly done a lot of research and spent a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of the camera (we've certainly had enough time to do so), and undoutedly there are phrases which have stuck. In fairness, however, the camera offers so much more than anything else that's even close to its cost that it's hard to list the multitude of advantages without it sounding like a "list." I'll ask you, what makes you excited about the 100U? The only benefits I see are interchangable lenses (which I did mention) and the form factor, which although may "look cool" or even be more comfortable for longer-term shooting, has nothing to do with the quality of the image that you're shooting. Not to mention at the end of the day, it's still HDV.

 

oh and Haakon, I think the real advantage to the interchangable lense is the ability to add a mini35 addaptor without the stock lens. Other cameras with fixed lenses end up passing the mini35 look through a cheap and distorted lens.

There is merit to this point, but now you're adding significant cost to the price of the camera and that defeats the whole purpose. If the quality is so important that you need the advantages of 35mm lenses, you aren't going to be shooting on 1/3" chips in the first place.

 

Light loss, chromatic aberations, and barrel distortions await a P2 user who wants to shed the 1/3 or even 2/3" chip look.

It's funny you say that, because the 100U has been repeatedly attacked for its overabundance of chromatic aberration. And what's wrong with the 2/3" chip look? The last time I checked, both the Varicam and CineAlta are 2/3" cameras, and they're not doing too shabby. P2 is merely a device for storage, it doesn't dictate anything about the quality of the picture.

 

the ENG full size P2 cameras look nice, I will admit that, but P2 doesnt make sense for anyone who wants an affordable prosumer HD camera.

Why on earth not? You pay for one card and you never have to buy stock again. You can review a take instantly without having to rewind or hunt to find it. It eliminates the need for digitizing. It is near shock proof and operates under temperatures far more extreme than tape ever could. It's immune to dropouts, one of tape's biggest problems. It's scalable and format agnostic, and the only thing that allows the HVX to be able to shoot in so many different formats and resolutions. Frankly, I can't find any reason why someone wouldn't want to shoot P2 - from "prosumer" all the way up. If you're getting hung up on price, then you obviously don't deal with film much, and the prices will never be higher than they are right now.

 

You're welcome to make fun of the way I talk if you want, but simply saying "it doesn't make sense" with nothing to back it up is meaningless.

 

(and 3P2 cards, the camera and accessories will be more expensive than the HD100U with a mini35 adaptor.

You absolutely don't need 3 cards, and there isn't an accessory for the HVX I would need that I wouldn't also have to acquire for the 100U. Not to mention, the mini35 costs significantly more than the HVX alone; how on earth do you think you'd come anywhere close to the same price? Sorry buddy, but your examples don't hold any water.

 

Yeah by the way how much will the Full size HD 2/3rd inch chip P2 cameras cost? (I.E. P2 Varicam)

The P2 Varicam is in development and not close to a release. There's no price yet, however going by the price differences between the current P2 cameras (I've listed them below) and their tape-based brothers, a P2 Varicam should theoretically sell for about $46,000. However, that's pure speculation at this point; an announcement is expected at NAB '06.

 

The P2 version of the AJ-SDX900 (called the AJ-SPX800) lists for $19,500. It's 2/3" and does DVCPRO50 or standard DVCPRO at 24p/30p/60i in 16:9 or 4:3.

 

The P2 version of the AJ-SDC905 (called the AJ-SPC700) lists for $12,995. It's 2/3" and does DVCPRO at 60i in 16:9 or 4:3.

 

There is no P2 camera yet that does HD - the HVX will be the first. (Maybe there's a reason some of us are excited after all...)

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What is the HVXs lens going to be like in terms of manual controls? Will it have full manual iris,focus,and zoom like the interchangeable lens on the JVC? OR will it be like the lens on say a VX2000 where as the focus,iris, and zoom are all servo(motor driven)controled not allowing smooth precise control? With most fixed lens cameras you can't focus the camera directly without going through a servo, the focus doesn't read out in accurate feet, and/or the iris has jumps in between F-Stops almost like adjusting gain on the fly.

 

For me a servo lens is useless and the biggest thing blocking me from going to a fixed lens camera.

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It's because you can't make and sell a camera for $4000 or so if the zoom lens on the thing costs many more thousands of dollars to build -- and a fully manual lens is more expensive to build well (because it takes real craftsmanship) than a servo lens with floating elements and electronics to keep the image in-focus and track as you zoom in and out. These electronically-controlled servo zoom lenses are easier to mass produce on an assembly line.

 

The irony is that a simpler all-manual lens is more expensive to build because the quality of the construction and the lens element used has to be much higher.

 

This is ultimately the stumbling block with the notion of cheap HD -- the electronics may get cheaper and cheaper over time, and the resolution can get higher and higher, but optics don't fall into the same economic model. Good optics cost money, and the higher the resolution of the camera, the more important the optics become to take advantage of that increased resolution. So we may see a future where the cameras can capture more detail than the lenses can deliver.

 

However, I agree that these prosumer models should all allow interchangeable lenses so at least you have the option of putting manual lenses for the camera, even if it seems silly to put a $25,000 pro HD zoom lens, let's say, onto a $5000 camera...

Edited by David Mullen

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It's because you can't make and sell a camera for $4000 or so if the zoom lens on the thing costs many more thousands of dollars to build -- and a fully manual lens is more expensive to build well (because it takes real craftsmanship) than a servo lens with floating elements and electronics to keep the image in-focus and track as you zoom in and out. These electronically-controlled servo zoom lenses are easier to mass produce on an assembly line.

 

The irony is that a simpler all-manual lens is more expensive to build because the quality of the construction and the lens element used has to be much higher.

 

This is ultimately the stumbling block with the notion of cheap HD -- the electronics may get cheaper and cheaper over time, and the resolution can get higher and higher, but optics don't fall into the same economic model. Good optics cost money, and the higher the resolution of the camera, the more important the optics become to take advantage of that increased resolution. So we may see a future where the cameras can capture more detail than the lenses can deliver.

 

However, I agree that these prosumer models should all allow interchangeable lenses so at least you have the option of putting manual lenses for the camera, even if it seems silly to put a $25,000 pro HD zoom lens, let's say, onto a $5000 camera...

 

They could at least offer it as an option. I realize that most consumers don't care but the options to put digiprimes on that camera would sure intrigue me and a lot of other people.

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At risk of stating the obvious, I think the arrival of 2/3" 24P HD in the sub-20K price range appears eminent as in 1yr<less. Those nifty DigiPrimes will still cost, what, a hundred grand? It's fun to dream, anyways...

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For me a servo lens is useless and the biggest thing blocking me from going to a fixed lens camera.

I can only speak for the DVX100a, which happens to be not as bad as other fixed lens cameras. There's a little switch that disengages the servo motors so you can manually control the zoom with the zoom ring. It's not as fluid as a true manual lens (if there were any viscosity at all, it would wear out the motor!), but it's a big improvement over the VX2000's lens. You'd just have to get your hands on it to see if it meets your needs. I'm certain you can add a Preston Microforce to the DVX100a for any zoom speed imaginable, because I've seen it done on a Jimmy Jib and took notes on the configuration.

 

One nice thing I noticed on Sony's Z1 was that it had a foot/inches indicator in the viewfinder, presumably for focusing. I hope Panasonic includes a similar function on the HVX200. They would be crazy not to.

 

Hope this helps.

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