New Super-8 Camera, the 7 Most Essential Features

[Alessandro Machi]

The top seven most essential features for a New Super-8 Camera, in no particular order are...

 

Removeable lens, pin registration, module side-panel concept for easily adding new camera functions, orientable viewfinder, Super-Duper 8 horizontal enlargement (for more compatible transfer to HD), Quiet, Digital Frame Counter.

 

Of the seven features I have mentioned, NO SUPER-8 CAMERA EVER MADE has more than two or three of those features. Any manufacturer would have an easy avenue for marketing a new Super-8 Camera that used the seven features mentioned above AND ATTRACTING big names to promote the Super-8 camera.

[Nate Downes]

If I could guarantee 60 buyers at $3k a piece, I know someone willing to build them.

[Marty Hamrick]

Removeable lens, pin registration, module side-panel concept for easily adding new camera functions, orientable viewfinder, Super-Duper 8 horizontal enlargement (for more compatible transfer to HD), Quiet, Digital Frame Counter.

Several cameras had removable lenses including the Beaulieu line.Pin registration,no,but some of the double super 8 cameras were 16mm conversions of cameras like the Bolex rex which has a trailing claw in lieu of pin registration.

Back in the 70's Aaton was working on a prototype of super 8 camera with an orientable viewfinder but I believe it was abandoned.

My guess is that certain 16mm cameras could be converted to D-S 8 with many of the features you describe.

Marty

[Alessandro Machi]

Converting a 16mm camera may be the most cost effective way, but in my opinion it partially defeats the purpose. Super-8 is really like a mini-dv format, but in the film world. However, without a professional level of features, Super-8 is being ignored as a possible way to cut costs on 35mm film projects.

 

Insert shots could be shot with a Super-8 camera. Throw away action shots such as the battlefield POV shots in Lord of the Rings is another Example. While I'm sure that Lord of the Rings helped the livlihood of many camera operators in the film industry, future ambitious film projects may not want to spend as much money. I am pretty sure the new Super-8 camera with the features that I am mentioning could have been used on Lord of the Rings on some of the several hundred hand-held battlefield shots that went by so quickly and so blurrily.

 

Higher end video projects are benefiting by the emergence of Mini-Dv for quick, low cost b-roll acquisiton. Film should have the same arensenal available to it.

 

The Spirit and Shadow Telecines have Super-8 gates. In some instances the post houses would not buy the million dollar system if it did not include a Super-8 gate along with the 16mm and 35m gates! Likewise in film production, film productions may be axed because the production could not be shaved by 10% whereas in video production money can be shaved by mixing in low cost acquisiton shots procured quite easily and quickly by means of a mini-dv camcorder. The parallels are there, The film world should have a low cost, quick fix solution to help deal with cost overruns.

 

Whereas Video technology takes chances and makes a film like "28 Days" on mini-dv technology for 15million dollars, the film world sits back and does nothing innovative on the low cost end for beginning filmmakers. Instead the film world just there like a fat, well to do can't be bothered slog.

 

How can the video world afford to waste 15 million dollars making a mini-dv movie while the film world can't even make an affordable entry level film camera?

 

Other examples of film excess and waste include television shows that shoot way too much film footage that doesn't even get used! Some of the b-roll shoots that NEVER EVEN GET USED (I know from talking to extras who were waiting for scenes for their demo reel that ended up being completely cut out) could be shot with a new Super-8 camera.

 

I also think the marketing of a new Super-8 Camera would be a slam dunk. What film director who grew up with super-8 wouldn't gladly hold such a new entry level camera in their hand and give the thumbs up?

[Josh Hill]

I think crystal sync needs to be an essential feature. I know the Beaulieu 6/7/8/9008 Pro models are crystal, but thats only one line of (expensive) cameras (though they are, I think, the best).

[stijnbarbe]

I think crystal sync needs to be an essential feature. I know the Beaulieu 6/7/8/9008 Pro models are crystal, but thats only one line of (expensive) cameras (though they are, I think, the best).

 

not just crystal, also the available speeds are important. I'm trying to find a good S8 cam that runs at 25fps to use for music videos. of course I could run at 24 and have the telecine paly it at 25, the 4% increase wouldn't be a terrible problem, but for syns shots it would be nice.

 

does anybody knoiw of 25fps S8 cam???? I know you can buy one on www.super8sound.com with an 25fps crystal motor, but that leaves you stuck with one speed...

[Matt Wells]

25fps super8 cam:

 

Nizo models 2056; 3056; 4056; 4080; 6056; 6080

all run at 24 and 25 fps.

Other nizo models like the Professional also run at 25.

 

Many Beaulieu 4008 have a setting for 25.

 

However unless it is crystal controlled I really think that these camera are not all thet accurate.

 

The film group perform conversions to a wide range of camers to crystal sync.

 

http://members.aol.com/fmgp/

 

Matt

[Alessandro Machi]

If you front slate and back slate your shots, I assume you can do "fit to fill" to sync up your shots in post. This should render the crystal sync issue moot, (unless you were planning to make an optical blow-up of the super-8 footage).

 

One of the 7 essential features that I mentioned was a "module" design. A side panel module could actually be attached to the side of the camera and the module would offer different filming options.

 

One module could be devoted to special filmming effects and speeds. It could offer slow motion, fast motion, single frame, time-lapse and time-exposure.

 

Another module could act as both a crystal sync module AND as a blimp/barney to help ensure the camera is quiet. Perhaps this module would actually encase both sides of the camera to help deaden the camera sound.

 

The module concept allows for all of the more specific functions filmmakers want incorporated without having to create excessive knobs and buttons on the camera, instead, just attach the side panel module of choice. The modules could be named after directors as a signature series.

[Josh Hill]

The module concept, I suppose, is an okay idea. I don't think as many people would use the modules as you think, probably because of price considerations, but I'm sure there will be a lot of filmmakers out there who will save up and buy the whole line of modules.

 

However, I think a true cyrstal sync (24, 25 and 30fps) along with a range of variable speeds should probably be a definite inclusion into the "basic" camera. Its a feature that a majority of people would want, because it would allow everyone to produce sync-sound footage from their initial purchase of the camera (and not having to purchase the camera with additional sync sound module that will have to be installed, etc).

 

I also think a variable shutter angle would be something a lot of people would go for.

 

When coming up with a concept for a package you have to decide what the features of a lot of people would shell out their cash to buy. The modular idea is a good concept, but you really have to try to get all of the major components into one package. Sure it would be great to have a high speed module that you can slap on your camera and turn on and off when you need it or don't, but why would you want to make the user have to change out modules everytime they want to shoot sync?

 

You have to market to what you know the average person in your market will buy. Since this will most likely be a PRICEY super-8 camera you've gotta give them quite a bang for their buck. After all, they're going to have to buy a lens too. So give them the a quiet, crystal-sync super-8 camera, variable shutter, interchangable lens, Super-Duper 8, orientable viewfinder (reflex viewing, I'm assuming), and then tack on the modular design for specialty modules like high speed shooting (kinda moot with 50ft of film, but oh well) or perhaps that digital frame counter you specified (since I would consider that specialty, people get along without that all the time).

 

Plus you have to make the camera aesthetically pleasing (a lot of people will purchase based on functionality AND looks), and ergonomically usable and comfortable.

 

Thats just what I think.

[stijnbarbe]

Back in the 70's Aaton was working on a prototype of super 8 camera with an orientable viewfinder but I believe it was abandoned.

 

I'd like to see those Aaton designs!!! I'm a big Aaton fan and if they were to make something like a A-minima for S8 use, I'd absolutely love it. Changeable lenses, a good crystal motor with a good speed range and a reflex viewfinder...

They'd have to work something out to improve stability though. Registration pins and adapted S8 cartridges with a good pressure plate, like the ones you can buy online...

 

But Josh also kind o f made this wish list and I must say that I agree with him.

The dveloment cost of creating a real pro S8 camera would result in a high price for the machine itself, even in a modular system.

 

But to go back to the 70's Aaton plans, if anybodyhas more info on this...?

we should remind Aaton of this plan

[Marty Hamrick]

There was an issue of Super 8 Filmaker magazine back in 1978 or '79 that had an anouncement that Aaton was working on a prototype super 8 camera.There was a picture of the head of the Aaton corporation with Lenny Lipton looking at a model of the proposed camera design.My understanding was, it wasn't a real camera,but a shell.

Marty

[stijnbarbe]

Yeah, I saw something similar in the late 90's whenb Aaton was developping the A-minima. I think I'm going tpo send an email to Aaton and ask for more info.

[Dan Salzmann]

Crystal speeds, variable shutter, internal blimping, possibility of video assist, improved distance scale on the lenses, aperture scale on the lens (not seperate slider control like on the otherwise very good Canon 1014 XLS) and very fast fps rates, say up to 75 fps. I'm not so sure if the interchangeable lens idea is necessary for super8 because they would have to be specially conceived for the camera. The Leica mount Leicina takes Leica mount lenses but this only offers the possibility of longer focal length prime lenses that are not optimized for the format.

The zoom lenses on the top of the line Canon and Nizo cameras are very good.

I have worked with the Beaulieu 7008 as well and the results were very good but not IMHO good enough the price difference with the above cameras.

An off the shelf super super8 camera is a good idea because super8 filming with striped film is clearly a thing of the past.

[Alessandro Machi]

An off the shelf super super8 camera is a good idea because super8 filming with striped film is clearly a thing of the past.

Since the film stripe stock is no longer available, the film stripe part of the film frame area can be used as additional image area, aka super-duper-8, which would more closely match HD aspect ratio specs.

[Fulgencio Martinez]

Hi,

Thinking of S8 as a format with professional capabilities i see the need for longer magazines capabilities.

3 min cameras are near useless for most shooting conditions.

Of course having a camera capable of longer shooting would need the colaboration of kodak suplying longer reels.

[Alessandro Machi]

I agree that 2 minutes and 30 seconds is far too short. This is somewhat offset by the fact that Super-8 film can be reloaded in under 5 seconds. However, if one is trying to do a complete take of a music video, the task becomes next to impossible, unless one has two cameras and starts the second camera before the first camera runs out of film.

[Nate Downes]

You forget that there are 100', 200' and now a 400' magazine available for Super8 cameras as well.

[Alessandro Machi]

Are those only for Beaulieu cameras?

[Marty Hamrick]

Are those only for Beaulieu cameras?

I've seen them fitted on the Nizo and some Elmo models as well.Don't know if those cameras require modification or not,but the were originally designed to take the old 200 foot cart.

I would like to see a rear loading coaxial magazine fitted for some of the rear loading cameras,however the viewfinder would have to modified.Perhaps a cheap video assist and a small LCD monitor could be employed.

Marty

[Nate Downes]

This topic is officially a dead duck, as Wittner has announced that they are re-introducing the 4008/7008 series Super8 cameras formerly manufactured by beaulieu. (Wittner bought all of their film stuff from them, and apparently have all of the parts necessary for manufacture) Cost for a new 7008, $4,100. Not bad at all.

[Alessandro Machi]

The opposite is actually true.

 

I know a camera manufacturer who could make a pin-registered Super-8 camera for between 4 and 5 grand. The problem of course had to do with pre-orders. Could one really get 50-100 pre-orders?

[Nate Downes]

The opposite is actually true.

 

I know a camera manufacturer who could make a pin-registered Super-8 camera for between 4 and 5 grand. The problem of course had to do with pre-orders. Could one really get 50-100 pre-orders?

50, possibly. I know a few folk that would be interested.

[Bob Last]

This topic is officially a dead duck, as Wittner has announced that they are re-introducing the 4008/7008 series Super8 cameras formerly manufactured by beaulieu. (Wittner bought all of their film stuff from them, and apparently have all of the parts necessary for manufacture) Cost for a new 7008, $4,100. Not bad at all.

I'm not sure if this is a dead duck yet. Maybe a piece of it.

 

The 7008 does not have a pin registered or even its own pressure plate and does not have an orientable viewfinder like your camera has.

 

I am still hoping you can cater to the Beaulieu 6008/7008 owners out there by coming out with a magazine that takes a Super 8 cartridge, has its own metal pressure plate, and plugs to the 6008/7008. These cameras are already designed to accept magazines.

 

$400? I will get 2.