Andy_Alderslade Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 So what did people actually think about the film? I didn't think it was anti-american, only critical of the situatioin in its self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Peline Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 In general I didn't feel the documenatry was anti-american per say - I think it told things pretty much as they were or are. I felt it was pretty straight and balanced for the most part apart from the music that sometimes lended certain dramatized scenes an air of cinema which could be construed as emotional embellishment. Â By all accounts, in comparison with other things I have read and seen in the press albeit in the European press, I think the documentary showed what happened in Afghanistan and in Camp Xray fairly truthfully without over-dramatization or embellishment. I think the programme was trying very hard to be factual and not propaganda. Â Many of the views presented in my earlier posts came from my personal views on things more than the programme itself. Â I do have to admit though that I did feel there was not enough explanation for why the four boys found themselves in Afghanistan - I do feel they weren't telling the whole truth. What were they doing there? Though I don't feel they deserved to be locked up and interrogated without trial for so long, I do think there was a lot more to be told about why they were there which was glossed over. As far as I could tell, they were first of all in Pakistan either so one of them could find a wife or so one of them could get married. They then ended up going to Afghanistan because of the preachings of a Pakistani Muslim imam in order to 'help'. In this part of the programme they were presented as ignorant, innocent, dumb boys who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. For what purpose they were there? They either wanted to see what was happening over there or they did indeed want to join the Taliban to fight Amercan troops. That wasn't explained properly and we'll probably never find out. Â Apart from that bit, for the most part I do feel the programme was more factual than propaganda, however, that is open to interpretation depending on where you stand in the debate, if you know what I mean. Â In terms of style I think it was pretty straight forward; a mixture of interviews of the three boys/men (one of their party disappeared and was never heard from again when the were fleeing an area that started being bombed), dramatized re-creations of their journey from Britain to Pakistan to Afghanistan using actors and much British archive television news footage of what was being presented to the 'outside' world at the time, to show historical and chronological context. Â As I say, I honestly thought it was fairly subdued, balanced and truthful. Especially in comparison to something like say 'Farenheitt 911' which is much more about Michael Moore's own personal agenda, style of home grown flashy editing, showmanship and self styled propaganda.... Â But I suppose it's better for people to watch it for themselves when it comes out, as obviously you all probably know by now, I have very biased opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted March 13, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted March 13, 2006 Hi, Â There aren't enough spare hours in my day to read all this, but I think my opinion about current US policy on these issues was summed up nicely by a friend of mine just today, who said "You can't claim to be the good guys if you're going to keep doing bad-guy things." Iffy elections, invasions without mandate, imprisonment without trial, holding weapons of mass destruction, influence of commercial interests on government. These are things we expect from third-world dictatorships, and they're bad-guy things. Â Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon-Hebert Barto Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 For all the peeps who looovvvve this film then I have an even better one for you. "Triumph Des Willens".  I'm a liberal at heart but this crap is about as fair as Bushs' tax plan !!! PRO-PA-GAN-DA. Plain and simple.  If we believe that film is truth at 24fps then we MUST stand up against this kind of garbage even in the face  of our own beliefs, whether we believe in a "documentarys' " thesis or not. Documentary has no place in the  mind control business no matter how subtle it is. Film whats there, don't edit for emotion, and get the hell  out of the cutting room. Let what you actually filmed affect the viewer and allow them to emote, not your  editing style and what you left out ,or put in at a "perfect" time. America is going down the crapper fast  enough without allowing ourselves to succumb to malipulative media. We keep drinkin' the cool-aid from either  side of the aisle and we'll end up pissing our own bed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steven Beverly Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Hi, There aren't enough spare hours in my day to read all this, but I think my opinion about current US policy on these issues was summed up nicely by a friend of mine just today, who said "You can't claim to be the good guys if you're going to keep doing bad-guy things." Iffy elections, invasions without mandate, imprisonment without trial, holding weapons of mass destruction, influence of commercial interests on government. These are things we expect from third-world dictatorships, and they're bad-guy things.  Phil  We're not the bad guys, we're in the process of killing the bad guys. I live next to one of the biggest military bases in the US and have done work for them and met a lot of our guys and girls who came back from Iraq. Those guys didn't go there to kill anyone. They went there to help. But if these phsycotic loons keep trying to blow them up, they're gonna shoot back and their gonna invade the cities where these f#*ks are holed up. A single US Trident submarine has enough nuclear firepower to destroy all life on earth. We have 12 of them. The proof we are a compassionate poeple is that Falushia isn't a a chared ,cider filled crater in the middle of the F*#king desert. We didn't ask for this war but now that is here, we will drag the middle east into the 21st century whether they like it or not. In order for the world to exist in peace we cannot allow this kind of barbarism to continue. They started it and we will finish it.  This is a war about which way the world will live, with the freedom for each individual to believe what in what you want to believe in or having someone tell you how you must live your life, not only in the middle east but here as well, with these evangelistic Christian, moral majority fools trying to dictate their version of morality to us, which are niether Christian, moral or the majority. Our freedoms are being slowly erouded one by one and we're at the point were we've had it! The one thing you don't ever want to do is piss off the American people, that's why the Taliban doesn't exist anymore and that why there are tanks in downtown Bagdad and this administation is at that point.  Watch what happens this year in congress and 2 years from now in the White House. America will rise from this better, stronger and wiser than it's ever been from the expirence. For some reason we seem to have to go though insanity every once in a while before we can appreciate truely blessed we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon-Hebert Barto Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 (edited) we are still and will always be the best and brightest hope for freedom throughout the world and you and everyone else knoes it. Wow, how very American. (what about Canada) There was never a question about dropping the first bomb. It would end the war and would save lives, but the Jananese military was so fanatical that even after the first single bomb destroyed an entire city If you had ever been to the hiroshima memorial or read any non american propaganda history, you would know the A- bomb was being built years before the japanese were desperatly suicidal. They planned on bombing Japan before the war had begun. Just to clarify! Â Quote : Can`t wait to see the documentory! But some of you guys have some very seriously conditioned views that should be thought about twice before stating opinions as facts! Â Yeah, how about you take some of your own advice and link us some "facts" to "clarify" the USA was planning on bombing Japan before the war even began for us. Hard fact, none of this blog hearsay crap! Â Einstein wrote to Roosevelte in '39 informing him of the Nazi program to enrich uranium and that it might be a good idea for us to beat them to the bomb. So I guess between '39 and '41, when they attacked us at Pearl Harbour, we decided to take over mainland Japan via A-bomb attack? Please be so good as to educate me with documentation as I find this a stimulating topic! Â Even Howard Zinn wouldn't drop this low. We told the Japanese to give up or we'd use the gadget. They did not think we had it. Present day Japan even echos this sentiment as well as their desire for a scorched earth policy at that time. They told their women and children that if we landed it would be followed by rape and enslavement, hence the suicide rate of women and infanticide at their hands. Â I suppose you believe Roosevelte was killed by Churchill like the rest of the cool-aid chugging Zinn clan? Problem is you have no documentation. Â So post away and enlighten the masses.... Edited March 13, 2006 by BARCA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 This discussion has dropped a new low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Peline Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 Documentary has no place in the mind control business no matter how subtle it is. Film whats there, don't edit for emotion, and get the hell out of the cutting room. Let what you actually filmed affect the viewer and allow them to emote, not your editing style and what you left out ,or put in at a "perfect" time. Â I don't understand what you mean? After all we have to disseminate information somehow and editing will always be part of that process, no matter how subtle to you try to be. You can of course just show raw footage which isn't edited but even the way you shot that footage i.e. how you used your camera and what you shot is already a 'point-of-view' so therefore it is impossible to simply let footage speak for itself neutrally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steven Beverly Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) This is true but there is a difference between a fair and balanced documentary and a propoganda film with an agenda. When a film completely ignors relevent and important facts in favor of promoting it's own biased point of view, it does a disservice to the audience. These films sully the title of documentary and spread a vison of a certain subject that has been turned essentually into a lie, an obtuse distored view that prompts statments like "I don't think I'll ever set foot in America again." This is not Documentation, this is a hatchet job and should be acknowlaged as such. Although the facts were all true, Fairanhight 911 was a hatchet job too, but Bush is such a tool it's hard to care. Â I just want people to realize there are a lot of forces out there that can't wait to see America knocked down a few pegs and will do what ever it takes to see that happen. We will not appalogize for being a superpower nor should we, but we are definately not an empire, nor do we want to be. If we could live in a world of peace and harmony were everyone is treated fairly and justly and has the freedom that everyman deserves we would have no need to defeat those who would destroy the freedom we have, but until that day we will continue the fight to better ourselves and the world around us no matter who we must challange to do so. That is what America is about and what our founding Fathers wanted for all generations of Americans and untimately the world. Edited March 14, 2006 by Capt.Video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon-Hebert Barto Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) I don't understand what you mean? After all we have to disseminate information somehow and editing will always be part of that process, no matter how subtle to you try to be. You can of course just show raw footage which isn't edited but even the way you shot that footage i.e. how you used your camera and what you shot is already a 'point-of-view' so therefore it is impossible to simply let footage speak for itself neutrally. Â Â Rule number one of Documentary Club: Â Never shoot a Doc on a subject for which you already have a concrete opinion. Â No, really, you have the most valid point. And I'm sorry for bringing this (deeper) into the gutter. I think the thread topic was lost the day it started, however it is no excuse for me to go on a tangent. I still stand by all my posts in this thread, though. And it staggers me that some can make the kind of comments (..US was going to bomb Japan before the war even started kind of BS...) they make as "fact" in "correction" to anothers post with no facts of their own. That guy won't even defend his own comments.... Â My basic gist was to explain how I feel Docs are more and more cutting for dramatic effect in the same manner as narrative films. Thats what I mean when I say the films emote for the viewer. Kind of guiding them emotionally, not just factually. Who knows, its just my opinion. Â ANDY quote: This discussion has dropped a new low. Â From here on out I will remember that I logged on to "cinematography.com" and not some bully-pulpit blog. Edited March 14, 2006 by BARCA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Looks to me like they got what they deserved, how foolish to travel into a war zone on holiday FFS. The surprising thing was they seemed to have learned nothing from their ordeal, if only to become more religious and pray more ?  Hmmmmm'  In regards to Guantanamo well the facts speak for themselves, 0 convictions from everybody who was held their ! What a waste of tax payers money, it's beyond me why the US and UK were so foolish/greedy to get involved.  It was a waste to their lives, as well. Lets see if you were locked up for months on end without no idea of release and see if you were calling it a waste of tax payers money. Its also a waste of the soldiers' dignity who had to work at Guantanamo.  The doc/film is a good eye opener for the masses but don't believe all you see as this is a film rather than a doc. My fave doc at the moment is 'The Root of All Evil' by Professor Richard Dawkins. A true master piece that explains how religion is the root of all evil ! -matt  Yea I agree it certainly felt more like a film than a documentry - which seems to be the way Winterbottom works, thats why they are very effective as no blatent political agenda is forced onto you.  As for religion being the 'route of evil' thats a very sweeping title, curiously does that exclude the millions of people who died under Stalin, or violence fueled by alchohol, the many crimes motivated by greed - those are essentially 'evil' things fueled by things which are very much disconected with religion.  BARCA: From here on out I will remember that I logged on to "cinematography.com" and not some bully-pulpit blog.  Thankgoodness we can actually talk about the aesthetics of cinematography and filmmaking again, and not just rant about our misgivings about the troubles in the world today - which are unfortunatly many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest matthew david burton Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 I removed my post as this realy isn't a place for mindless speculation on off topic subjects. Ah men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Peline Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Another sad day for freedom and justice... Â oh yeah, I forgot, they don't exist anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Its worrying enough that something like Guantanamo can exist today and in the 'free' world, let alone the fact that it does exist, and with little hope for its closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 From Capt. Video.... Â "in case you've frogotten we were the guys that defeated the Nazis." Â Capt. Video, when Americans make typical statements like this you illustrate why Americans are so disliked around the globe. And demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of world history. Â WWII started in September of 1939, the USA did not get involved until December 1941. Where the hell where you guys those first two years of Hitler's terror? Â There where three countries that went ashore on D-Day, Canada, GBR, and the USA. So I don't think you where alone in leading the charge. Â It's a good thing Canada and GBR where there on June 6, 1944, because the USA suffered the worst losses on Omaha Beach due to the incompetence of US commanders. First off the US lost all 27 of their amphibious tanks because they where launched too far out at sea. Even though the British told the US they where launching their tanks at the wrong time. Â Next the USA refused to use the "flail tank" because they thought it was a silly British invention. Incase you are not aware the flail tank had rotating chains on the front that made the land mines explode. It saved countless lives on the British and Canadian beaches. Â FYI, Americas contribution to WWI was even less spectacular. The war started on July 28, 1914. The USA declared war on Germany April 6, 1917, the whole thing was over Nov 11, 1918. Â It seems the only wars America has shown up on time for are the ones the USA starts. Â R, Â PS: Oh yes it's great to be off topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bays Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Please, these idiots deserve to be there for live and they may be. They f'd up and fought for the wrong side. You should care a little more about those they would and have killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Jason Debus Posted June 12, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted June 12, 2006 FYI, 'The Road To Guantanamo' is based upon the true story of three British Muslims (Tipton three) who were innocent yet spent years at Guantanamo. Â The Road To Guantanamo - Trailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bays Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I know and things happen...they are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Mottram Posted June 12, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted June 12, 2006 (edited) Don't really want to get involved but I'll chip in with a couple of brief 'in my opinions'  A) Quantanamo is a disgrace and should never have been built, this is I think universally accepted by anyone with half a brain.  B) 'The Road to Quantanamo' sucked. If you watch it and it shocks you then you really need to open yourself up and look around.  The only thing I found shocking is how badly it was made considering it had a reasonable budget, how uniterested it was in investigating what these nice trio were doing wandering accidentally around war zones (were they the most retarded tourists ever?). Finally why so much fuss was given to it when there are countless better made and better researched documentaries out there.  I liked Code 46, loved 24 hour party people and sit on the fence with a number of his films; but I thought this was lazy, under researched, unbalanced and really pretty boring.  keith  ps I am both anti war and bono...  ...and anti fu**in' smileys how did that shitbag thing appear it was supposed to be a B) and it was a fookin' B) (capital letter B) when I typed it- is this a soddin' PC/ Mac thing?  Tim is there anyway I can stop these stupid yellow horrors ever appearing in my posts - or are they there to torture me? Edited June 12, 2006 by keith mottram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Peline Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Please, these idiots deserve to be there for live and they may be. They f'd up and fought for the wrong side. You should care a little more about those they would and have killed. Â Who do you mean? The English guys who were eventually released with no charges made against them or the three guys who committed suicide a few days ago (as a 'publicity stunt' as the US government so glibly stated) because they had been interned for four years without trial, without once ever having seen a lawyer. Â I still question how you can be an 'illegal combatant' in your own country? Obviously American law just transposes itself on whatever country they decide to bomb or invade at any one time. Â I bet you Bush and his cronies are just wishing that all the other Guantanamo prisoners try to follow suit and commit suicide as well. They'll kill two birds with one stone. They can wash their hands of the whole affair and also accuse them 'evil ragheads' of anti-American activities and of trying to give the US a bad name, all at the same time...them evil non-American heathens. Â Another beautiful example of 'Freedom, Democracy and Justice', American style. Â In fact thinking about it, I should really keep my mouth shut. No joke! If I step in to the US anytime soon, there's no guarantee that a couple of NSA or CIA guys won't abduct me, put me on a plane to some dodgy Eastern European country where they'll pistol whip me or electrocute my bits in some dingy basement chamber until I swear to God that I am Osama Bin Laden himself after massive plastic surgery. Â Things like that don't happen in a democracy? Yeah, you're absolutely right. They happen in Cuba, Eastern Europe or Northern Africa so that some US spokesman can in complete honesty with a big smile on his face look the press straight in the eye and state that there is no such thing as torture of US prisoners on US soil. Absolutely true! It's all happening outside of the US. Â Yep! Â Freedom, Justice, Democracy and the American way! Hooo Ahhhhh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bays Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 (edited) You guys go on being progressive and maybe they will kill you last. Â I hope they find some peace if they didn't belong there...but screw the 99% who do. Â Oh GOD! I'm ruining my career in Hollywood! :D Edited June 12, 2006 by Kemper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I hope they find some peace if they didn't belong there...but screw the 99% who do. Â This statement saddens me, if you knew anything at all about this film or Guantanamo, you would know that only a tiny fraction of the prisoners have actually been charged or tried - ie nobody has built a case of evidence against them. If there is no real evidence then any number of them, maybe even 99% can be innocent - thus their only crime is being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Â It seems to me that people who have no understanding or any basic knowledge of how damaging rough justice is are always the first to dish it out, and disreguard the tragedy of it. After all it is nothing less than tragedy, to lose significant years from ones life, to lose peace or a sense of personal security and never be able to get it back - nobody who hasn't experienced that can ever fully understand that. Â This is exactly why films like The Road to Guantanamo are so important, after all I don't think its an excellent film considering its from a brilliant team of filmmakers - but it gives people sitting at home one evening a chance to tune in to something they otherwise will never possible know or experience - thats why its so important. Â So try watching the film or reading a book about Guantanomo before posting any more assinine comments about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bays Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The Afghan delegation was just there and said they were being treated fairly. This is a war and they were given quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steven Beverly Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) It sickens me that these people have been denighed due process. That's not what America is about, but just because some Doc. says 99% of them are innocent victims doesn't make it accurate. The Bush administraition has bungled every aspect of this war and flat out lied to get us into it with pisses me off more than anything the government has done sence Nixon was in charge, but I'm definately NOT in favor of just letting these clowns go. If anything give them their day in court and live up to the ideas this nation was founded on. Free the innocent, then fry the rest. I have NO sympathy for monsters that murder innocent people, NONE. But I also dispise those who would dishonor the foundations my country was built upon and feel they should be removed from office in disgrace as they deserve to be! Edited June 14, 2006 by Capt.Video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The Afghan delegation was just there and said they were being treated fairly. This is a war and they were given quarter.  A delegation of Bakers or Candle Stick Makers?  Did this delegation include, the UN, Amnesty International or even the International Red Cross?  Why wasn't this covered by the reputable and independant international press organisations, like ITN or the BBC?  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5079744.stm  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5071870.stm  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5076456.stm   I've looked and there is nothing there on it, and as you can see they are very comprehensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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