K-3 info please??

[Landis Tanaka]

Hi, Im new here and I just got a 16mm camera, a K-3 to be exact. I just had a few questions.

 

1) I really need a wide angle lens for it, and I have seen the 16mm Zenitar and I was wondering if it would work. What I am skeptical of is how the rear lens glass does not look as though it is long enough to reach the film gate. Would it still work?

 

2) Also, is it possible to expose this camera by eye, because I do not have a light meter and I was wondering if I could just adjust the f:stop until it looks alright through the viewfinder, would it work? or does the viewfinder not give me an accurate preview?

 

thanks!

[Trevor Greenfield]

Hi, Im new here and I just got a 16mm camera, a K-3 to be exact. I just had a few questions.

 

1) I really need a wide angle lens for it, and I have seen the 16mm Zenitar and I was wondering if it would work. What I am skeptical of is how the rear lens glass does not look as though it is long enough to reach the film gate. Would it still work?

 

Sorry I dont know about the Zenitar, but for someone as novice to film as yourself or at least 16mm I find it odd that you are just skipping right over the stock meteor zoom and going right for obtaining primes. From what I've seen/heard/experieced the zoom is fine unless you need to cut it with say an Arri with some nice glass. Dont get me wrong primes are almost always sharper and better, so its a good idea, just strange that you would consider a 16mm prime when a 17mm zoom comes stock with the camera. Remember though, if you decide to use a M42 mount lens for 35mm cameras, its a 2:1 factor, so a 15mm m42 lens made for 35mm cameras will be the equiv. of 30mm lens in 16mm cameras.

 

2) Also, is it possible to expose this camera by eye, because I do not have a light meter and I was wondering if I could just adjust the f:stop until it looks alright through the viewfinder, would it work? or does the viewfinder not give me an accurate preview?

 

thanks!

No, only video cameras can you adjust exposure in a WYSIWYG manner by looking in the viewfinder. If you are shooting film, you need a light meter ($25-$50 used on ebay). Become one with the lightmeter. Get smarter than the lightmeter. Otherwise there is really no cheat to measuring light except to use the lightmeter inside the K3. Some people say these are totally innacurate. Mine is perfect, but a handheld lightmeter will ALWAYS be better if you know how to use it.

Edited April 9, 2006 by Trevor Greenfield

[Landis Tanaka]

dammit. I really don't have money for a light meter right now and I've shot half my roll by exposing by eye.

 

wait a second, so you're saying that the lens it comes with is a 17mm?? it doesn't look very wide...

 

and will any light meter work? or does it have to be a CINE light meter?

 

Im lookin at Sekonic meters on ebay, cause I heard thats the best kind to get, and I must say Im not too impressed with these prices.

[Trevor Greenfield]

dammit. I really don't have money for a light meter right now and I've shot half my roll by exposing by eye.

 

So, you went and shot half of your roll, then decided to learn what you were doing?

 

wait a second, so you're saying that the lens it comes with is a 17mm?? it doesn't look very wide...

 

Here's a good site with some K3 info...http://www.k3camera.com/

 

This is a stock K3...

 

 

Note the stock 17-69mm f1.9 zoom precision Zenit Lens as indicated by the numbers located on the zoom lever. If that didn't come with your camera then you either didnt get a m42 mount k3 (you got a bayonnet) or you simply didnt get the stock lens. IMO no, 17mm is not *super* wide, but it will get the job done. The Peleng is an alternative.

 

and will any light meter work? or does it have to be a CINE light meter?

 

no, just set the shutter speed accordingly:

 

Shooting Speed (fps) Shutter Speed

8 1/20

12 1/30

16 1/40

24 1/60

32 1/80

48 1/120

single-frame 1/30

 

Im lookin at Sekonic meters on ebay, cause I heard thats the best kind to get, and I must say Im not too impressed with these prices.

 

I assume you were looking at digital spot meters or something. A regular sekonic should only cost $25-$50 used. "I'm not too impressed with these prices" -- this is filmmaking, son, if you're getting ulcers over the cost of a light meter this may not be for you or you may need to get a higher paying job on the side. Stock costs, production costs, sound equipment, developing, transfer, copies, post costs, websites, festival submissions, travelling expenses, etc... filmmaking aint cheap.

 

If you want easy and cheap, sell your K3 and get a DV camera. You could have easily bought one for the price of the K3 on ebay. Tapes cost $3 for an hour. Almost any modern computer can edit dv, put it on a dvd and hey youve saved a lot. It looks like video but at least you got away cheap.

 

If you want to shoot film you need to take the time to learn and do it properly. Yes, it costs more. IMO, yes it is worth it. But then again with the ease and inexpensiveness of video I think its imparative to learn there first but treat it like film. Nothing like seeing a $15k thesis film that should have been shot on dv.

Edited April 9, 2006 by Trevor Greenfield

[Landis Tanaka]

So, you went and shot half of your roll, then decided to learn what you were doing?

 

 

haha yah basicly.

 

I wasn't aware you could adjust the shutter on the K3.

 

and yes I know this stuff is supposed to be expensive, and I already have a GL2 and I have shot lots on super8 (an automaticly exposing cam might I add) and I used to shoot lots of 35mm stills, but I always used the internal meter.

 

so just one of those old light meters with the wheel on them could display the right f.stop and shutter? cause my dad just told me we might have one of those in our basement.

[Will Montgomery]

wait a second, so you're saying that the lens it comes with is a 17mm?? it doesn't look very wide...

 

Remember on a 16mm camera, a 17mm lens is more like 35mm on a 35mm camera... in other words the lens only covers half the film width so it looks half as wide.

 

I have the Zenitar 16mm lens. Its a decent lens for the K3, but the glass isn't amazing. The Peleng 8mm is also commonly used on the K3. You'll see noticable "fish eye" effect at the edges but its kinda cool in the right application. On a 35mm camera, that 8mm lens is a complete fish eye.

 

One drawback to the Zenitar (and the Peleng) is finding filters for it. Since they screw on to the back, I'm not sure where you find an 85 filter for it.

 

On the plus side for both the 16mm Zenitar and the Peleng 8mm, they cover the Super 16 frame if you make that modification to your K3. The stock lens can be pretty good, but only covers S16 at about 28mm and above.

 

Im lookin at Sekonic meters on ebay, cause I heard thats the best kind to get, and I must say Im not too impressed with these prices.

Suck it up and buy a decent meter. Spectra Cine meters are fine too. You can spend a ton of money shooting film, processing it and transfering it and if you don't expose properly or at least in the ball park, you could waste $300 in one batch of film.

[Chris Burke]

Remember on a 16mm camera, a 17mm lens is more like 35mm on a 35mm camera... in other words the lens only covers half the film width so it looks half as wide.

 

I have the Zenitar 16mm lens. Its a decent lens for the K3, but the glass isn't amazing. The Peleng 8mm is also commonly used on the K3. You'll see noticable "fish eye" effect at the edges but its kinda cool in the right application. On a 35mm camera, that 8mm lens is a complete fish eye.

 

One drawback to the Zenitar (and the Peleng) is finding filters for it. Since they screw on to the back, I'm not sure where you find an 85 filter for it.

 

On the plus side for both the 16mm Zenitar and the Peleng 8mm, they cover the Super 16 frame if you make that modification to your K3. The stock lens can be pretty good, but only covers S16 at about 28mm and above.

Suck it up and buy a decent meter. Spectra Cine meters are fine too. You can spend a ton of money shooting film, processing it and transfering it and if you don't expose properly or at least in the ball park, you could waste $300 in one batch of film.

 

How is that Zenitar at say ?5.6? The contrast, sharpness? Also, how did it perform with different stocks? Please give examples if you can.

 

chris

[Landis Tanaka]

How is that Zenitar at say ?5.6? The contrast, sharpness? Also, how did it perform with different stocks? Please give examples if you can.

 

chris

 

 

I second that!

 

wait, so if a 35mm lens to 16mm film is a 2:1, then....

 

a Pelang 8mm would be a 16mm on a Krasnogorsk, which would be equivalent to approx 33mm on a 35mm camera? are there any compatible lenses that are truly 16mm?

 

sorry I sound like a dunce. Its just that I was raised with digital knowledge, and I wanna learn about film.

[Charles MacDonald]

if you decide to use a M42 mount lens for 35mm cameras, its a 2:1 factor, so a 15mm m42 lens made for 35mm cameras will be the equiv. of 30mm lens in 16mm cameras.

 

Let me disagree on that point!

 

This seems to couse a lot of confusion. A 15mm Lens for an M-42 camera will be a 15mm lens on a K3, it will be a 15mm lens with an adaptor on a filmo or a bolex. It will be a 15mm lens if you stick it in your backpack on a camping trip and use it to focus the sun to start your campfire.!

 

Now what is true is that as a 35mm SLR shoots a much bigger neg , that 15mm lens will give you an image on the 16mm camera with a Simalar field of view to that you would get with a 30mm on a SLR. In other word moderate wide angle... This is why the 8mm lens really does not cover on the SLR - appering as a fisheye effect.

 

 

As far as the other question, Some old time Photographers DID judge the light by looking though the finder and stopping down, they were using much more forgiving film than a movie where shots shot at different times may end up spliced together. So You really should get a meter, uless you are only shooting in bright sunshine where you can use the Sunny 16 Rule.

[Nathan Chaszeyka]

Just to add $.02 that might be relevant to some responses to this post. The I know the thread starter from another board. He is a 6 or 7th grade student if I remember correctly but he has a lot of desire to learn and doesn't need it crushed. Everyone has been cordial but just try to keep it in mind.

[Alex Fuchs]

By the way, does anybody know the hotfocus for this 17mm zenit/meteor lense. I have a K3 too and I think all things are getting sharp by zoom in (17mm) at ca. 2m. Could that be right? Is there a rule to get the hotfocus?

cheers, alex

[Will Montgomery]

How is that Zenitar at say ?5.6? The contrast, sharpness? Also, how did it perform with different stocks? Please give examples if you can.

 

These are screen shots out of Final Cut Pro. I'm making a best guess on the f-stops since I didn't exactly take good notes.

 

For me the Zenitar 16mm is a little sharper than the Meteor at 17, but its hard to tell from my crappy focusing. That's one of the biggest problems I have with the K3, getting a sharp focus when you don't have time to setup a shot.

 

The only Peleng footage I had was from some really badly under exposed old 800T that really wasn't worth showing.

 

About f2.8-4, Vision2 500T

 

About f4 - Kodachrome

 

About f2.8-4, Vision2 500T

 

About f8, Vision2 250D

[Landis Tanaka]

This is why the 8mm lens really does not cover on the SLR - appering as a fisheye effect.

Some old time Photographers DID judge the light by looking though the finder and stopping down, they were using much more forgiving film than a movie where shots shot at different times may end up spliced together. So You really should get a meter, uless you are only shooting in bright sunshine where you can use the Sunny 16 Rule.

so the 8mm Pelang on my K3 will be about 16mm, right? and this sunny 16 rule of yours, please elaborate. I am only shooting 50D in sunnnny weather. it is ski footage.

 

Just to add $.02 that might be relevant to some responses to this post. The I know the thread starter from another board. He is a 6 or 7th grade student if I remember correctly but he has a lot of desire to learn and doesn't need it crushed. Everyone has been cordial but just try to keep it in mind.

 

close. 8th grade. are you deezl?

Edited April 10, 2006 by Tanakaskier

[Nathan Chaszeyka]

close. 8th grade. are you deezl?

 

 

Yep. That's me.

[Landis Tanaka]

Yep. That's me.

 

well thats just dandy.

 

Except nobody answered my question about exposing by eye. Is it easier on 50D rolls in suuuuuuuuuuunny weather cause thats all im shooting. and what is the sunny 16 rule?

[Trevor Greenfield]

well thats just dandy.

 

Except nobody answered my question about exposing by eye. Is it easier on 50D rolls in suuuuuuuuuuunny weather cause thats all im shooting. and what is the sunny 16 rule?

 

"No, only video cameras can you adjust exposure in a WYSIWYG manner by looking in the viewfinder. If you are shooting film, you need a light meter ($25-$50 used on ebay). Become one with the lightmeter. Get smarter than the lightmeter. Otherwise there is really no cheat to measuring light except to use the lightmeter inside the K3. Some people say these are totally innacurate. Mine is perfect, but a handheld lightmeter will ALWAYS be better if you know how to use it."

[Landis Tanaka]

yah but somebody else said something about exposing by eye when using daylight rolls in really bright weather or something like that.

[Mike Rizos]

As far as the other question, Some old time Photographers DID judge the light by looking though the finder and stopping down, they were using much more forgiving film than a movie where shots shot at different times may end up spliced together. So You really should get a meter, uless you are only shooting in bright sunshine where you can use the Sunny 16 Rule.

Hi,

I don't agree with the above statement. The human eye can not possibly judge light levels through the finder because it adapts so quickly. Besides, these oldtimers used rangefinder cameras where you don't see the effect of stoping down. (The SLR and the built-in meter were practically born together). They set exposure by examining the sky, direction and intensity of the sun, outline of shadows, and trial and error, thus by experience.

[Landis Tanaka]

poo. I'm just gonna bring my 35mm SLR wherever I go and expose with the built in light meter off that then.

[Joe Gioielli]

poo. I'm just gonna bring my 35mm SLR wherever I go and expose with the built in light meter off that then.

 

Welcome to the game! I realize that money is always a factor, but you really do need to get a meter. Yes, your SLR will work, but there are different kinds of light metering. Go to the Sekonic site and read up on it. It's very interesting.

 

I came from the video world myself. Film is a totally differnt animal. It's well worth the trouble.

 

Enjoy

Joe

[Charles MacDonald]

1) The "sunny 16 Rule:"

 

If your shutter speed is the same as your ASA rating, and you are outside on a bright sunny day, your corect lens opening should be f16. (I beleive the ASA system was set up deliberatly in a way that this will work.

 

A Movie camera dependingon the shutter angle will typicaly have a shutter sped somewhere between 1/40 to 1/60 of a second. If you assume 1/50th, and use ASA 50 film. Your sunny day exposure should be f/16. Old camera books give definitions of "partly clody" Haze" Overcast" "Open Shade" and give the apature to use under these conditions.

 

2) Your SLR meter should work for you, use 1/60th as your shutter speed and set the meter to the same speed as your (Movie) film. If you can read up on average vs Spot vs Incident metering. Your SLR with a grey card can sub for an incident meter..

 

3) Meters built in to SLRs came out around the time I was in Grade 5. First and most famous being the Asahi Pentax (Honeywell pentax in the USA) Spotmatic. which in spite of the name had an averaging meter rather than a spot meter.

 

In Grade 9 My first SLR was an EXA1 and I did try to get my exposure by noting the point where the groud glass started to have dark Spots. You would have to see an Exa up close to understand what I am talking about, My second SLR was a Practika Nova 1 also Meterless. I only got a spotmatic in the 70's when they had been out for ten years.

 

4) If you get a used light meter, check it out carefully. I have a Seconic auto-lumi, a ex-soviet Lenengrad 3 and a Leningrad 6 and they all show slighty differnt exposures. Be careful with the soviet meters, some of them use GOST rater than ASA for film speed.

[Landis Tanaka]

Be careful with the soviet meters, some of them use GOST rater than ASA for film speed.

 

yes I am aware of that. You just subtrack 10% from it to convert it to American ASA. and thank you for that sunny 16 rule.

 

so if I were to turn my asa to 50, then the fstop to 16, then I'd be set, for when its sunny? I can't manually adjust shutter. at 24fps its at 1/60, at 32fps its at 1/180, and at 48fps its at 1/120. Im gonna shoot mostly 32fps, but if I were to shoot 32fps then wouldn't I have to somehow turn the ASA to 32?

[Landis Tanaka]

I mean 180. If I shoot 32fps then I would have to have a film speed of 180 for this rule to work, right? or is there a loophole?

 

If I have 50D film but the closest my shutter will go to is 1/60, will I have to adjust the fstop to 1 stop lower than f16? or higher?

 

and I want to shoot slow mo. If I were only able to expose with the sunny 16 rule on 24fps then would it work if I just shot 24fps and then slowed it down in final cut pro like 70% or so?

[Guest stoop]

Buy a light meter for goodness sakes; you can pick up a pretty good one for £50 on ebay. If you can't afford that, how do you realistically expect to shoot film???

[Mark Dunn]

Your shutter speed at 24fps is 1/60th. So, in bright sunlight, f/16 would be correct for 64 ISO film (and close enough for 50 ISO.)

You get slow motion by running the camera faster- 32 or 48 fps- and adjust the aperture accordingly, because at 48fps the shutter speed is exactly half, or 1/120th. The film is shown at 24fps, thus you get slowed-down action.

Shooting by eye with colour film is a complete waste of time. You might as well save the cost of processing and bin the film. No-one has shot by eye for decades, and then not with colour.

I think you need to sit down with a good technical book and learn a bit of photographic theory. There are no shortcuts.