Scientologists get lost

[Galen Carter-Jeffrey]

Here is a simple test to tell if a group is a cult or not. Ask yourself these questions about the group:

 

1.Does the group use tricks, lies or excuses to get members and to keep them?

 

2.Does the group say that it is "better than all other groups", and is it organised so that people can't complain, discuss, vote, criticize, or change the group?

 

3.Does the group claim that the founder knows all the answers, and tolerates no discussion or questioning of his or her teachings?

 

4.Does the group say that nothing is more important than to get more money, people or anything else into the group, and that this is more important than honesty or friendship or families, maybe because it is such an emergency that the world must be saved right away?

 

5.Is the money collected used only a few "special people instead of for the members or the general population

 

People who study groups have looked at scientology and answered "yes" everytime. See why:

 

1. it pretends to be a self-help group, and doesn't tell the actual price of the services; the "personality test" is a trick because the result is always that you need help - and of course, "scientology can help you". An honest group would tell you this before the test;

 

2. scientologists say they are superior to the rest of the world, and calls the rest "raw meat" or "wogs" instead of simply "non-scientologists";

 

3. everything must be done exactly as LRH said/wrote. Discussion is "verbal tech" and gets you sent to "ethics", which means you are in trouble;

 

4. to get money, power or revenge scientology creates fake organisations (called "front groups" by critics) that lie about what they really want and do; and LRH said that "suppressive persons" can be "tricked, lied to and destroyed";

 

5. the money that scientology gets is used to attack enemies, through lawsuits, dirty tricks or lies. The staff members live in terrible conditions.

Edited May 9, 2006 by galeninjapan

[Mike Kaminski]

Lets apply this to christianity:

 

Here is a simple test to tell if a group is a cult or not. Ask yourself these questions about the group:

 

1.Does the group use tricks, lies or excuses to get members and to keep them?

 

If you dont believe in christianity, then yes.

 

2.Does the group say that it is "better than all other groups", and is it organised so that people can't complain, discuss, vote, criticize, or change the group?

 

It sure does. "I am the one true god, thou shalt have no other gods but me." Followed by orders to slay the heathens who dont believe. Similarly, anything disobedient to god is a "sin" and thus punished by eternal damnation.

 

3.Does the group claim that the founder knows all the answers, and tolerates no discussion or questioning of his or her teachings?

 

This is the basis of every religion, including of course good ol christianity.

 

4.Does the group say that nothing is more important than to get more money, people or anything else into the group, and that this is more important than honesty or friendship or families, maybe because it is such an emergency that the world must be saved right away?

 

Sure does, hence evangelical christians. The heathens must be saved from themselves by introducing the light of christ into their life or they will burn in hell.

 

5.Is the money collected used only a few "special people instead of for the members or the general population

 

The giant palaces the Pope lives in werent built by god thats for sure. I sure havent seen any money from the church.

 

I think people really have to stop deluding themselves that Scientology is a uniquely harmful cult. A cult is not defined by its deceptions or manipulation, its defined by numbers--religion on a small scale.

Edited May 9, 2006 by mike kaminski

[John King]

Hello all,

 

First off, it's agreed that the Inquisition was an inconscionable act of terror perpetuated against humanity (even against Christians who did not always agree with the edicts of the Roman Church). However, the arguement that galeninjapan make that one cannot blame the acts of groups or individuals on the belief system itself is a valid one. Such human errors have occurred in all belief systems to include 'science'. For example as late as the early 20th Century, 'scientists' actually believed that humand intelligence could be measured by the size of the cranium. Even the ridiculous beliefs of Adolph Hitler of 'master' and 'inferior' races owed more to Darwinist thought than to anything any religion ever advanced.

 

Secondly, the Crusades, like a lot that passes for 'history' have been greatly misrepresented in the West, where ironically if not for their efforts there might not have been a 'West' as we know it today. For more on that check out this link: http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

 

But again history is repleat with examples of those who have professed one thing or another, be it God, Science or even democracy only to advance more nefarious self-serving designs. One of the things unique about the Bible is that it actually predicted that people would come who would proclaim Christ but advance evil causes. More on the exploits of Moses later (if we keep getting away with this).

 

Best Regards,

J.M. King

[James Steven Beverly]

The excuse "anyone who uses christianity for bad purposes ie the crusades is not a true christian" is a huge cop out. The Bible clearly advocates the slaughter of "heathens" and portrays its heroic warlord leader Moses as cutting apart heathen babies and allowing his followers to take the virgin girls of enemy towns as trophies. Theres a reason why the clergy of the midieval times were able to use the bible to promote bloodshed and its because it is commanded in the bible, the existance of passages promoting harmony nonwithstanding. Although Scientology promotes several harmful and emotionally manipulative practices this is not unique to it at all, nor is its misunderstanding of science, which is a natural by product of belief in the supernatural. I mean i dont really need to get into creationism, geo-centric universes or flat-earths, and i shoudl remind you that there are societies which still believe in all of those things because the Bible explicitly states such things.

 

So again, not to be picking on christians here, but there is nothing at all different about scientology and those who loath that religion should take a look at the fundamentals of their own (and any religion for that matter).

 

Tell it to Mother Tereasa or better yet show me a Scientologist equivalent to her or the other Christian people who sacraficed their lives in the service of humanity, caring for the sick and destitute, educating the those with no other oportunity to learn, caring for refugees in wartorn nations and asking nothing in return. Nothing in this world is perfect but the self centered ideals of scientology are certainly not the answer, If Scientology had the power, what it would do to the world whould make the Inquisition look like a fraturnity innitiation and just to remind you, the midieval times was about 700 years ago and Moses lived 1700 years before that, but it into historical perspective tfor Chist's sake.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Why don't you religous biggots also attack Mormons and Jehovah's Wittnessess then?

 

Oh, I regularly do!

 

Phil

[Hal Smith]

Lets apply this to christianity:

It sure does. "I am the one true god, thou shalt have no other gods but me." Followed by orders to slay the heathens who dont believe. Similarly, anything disobedient to god is a "sin" and thus punished by eternal damnation.

 

You ignorance is showing, as a Catholic with a Jewish mother I can assure you that Mosaic Monotheism isn't exclusively a Christian thing. Are you aware that Islam also believes He Who Is?

 

Maybe you just don't like religion - that's okay - but then explain to me why you find a spring morning beautiful? Why Mozart moves you? Why you can stand transfixed in front of a Renoir for hours? Why the images in "Lawrence of Arabia" stay with one for a lifetime?

 

Have you ever considered that perhaps the greatest evidence of our being created in the image of our Creator God is that we too enjoy creation, also know as Art?

[John King]

Galeninjapan,

 

Although well-intentioned I'm sure, litmus tests such as these lead us down a dangerous path, observe:

 

Here is a simple test to tell if a group is a cult or not. Ask yourself these questions about the group: I'm going to apply this to my own Faith, Christianity.

 

1.Does the group use tricks, lies or excuses to get members and to keep them?

 

Yes. The Roman Church at some point in time introduced the idea of the 'forever burning hell' which was used as a scare tactic to keep members in line and paying tribute when the plate came 'round. This concept is unBiblical even and as such constitutes a lie in every regard. But it did happen.

 

2.Does the group say that it is "better than all other groups", and is it organised so that people can't complain, discuss, vote, criticize, or change the group?

 

O, man, I've even heard other Protestant denominations spout off like this.

 

3.Does the group claim that the founder knows all the answers, and tolerates no discussion or questioning of his or her teachings?

 

ummm Yes and no. Being Christians, our Founder is inarguably Jesus Christ and yes I believe He does have all the answers, but to their credit, most Christians I've encountered (Protestant or Catholic) have been willing and open to debate and have never drawn the sword (but maybe I'm just lucky--just kidding some)

 

4.Does the group say that nothing is more important than to get more money, people or anything else into the group, and that this is more important than honesty or friendship or families, maybe because it is such an emergency that the world must be saved right away?

 

Again, I've seen it happen. Heck, a clever Atheist would consult the Bible itself and quote Christ Himself saying that His Mission would pit father against son, mother against daughter and so on. Which to some extent did happen I suppose (given that His Ministry was a decided break from Traditional Judaism of the day).

 

5.Is the money collected used only a few "special people instead of for the members or the general population

 

Can you say the Pope and the Cardinals of Rome, or for that matter Jimmy Swaggert, or Jim and Tammy Faye Baker? Again not trying to be smart alecky, just add a little needed humour from time to time, but the point is if we go strictly by such litmus tests, even 'Christendom' itself comes up guilty. Again, this is a black eye on Christendom not on Christianity or Christ.

 

Warmest regards,

J.M. King

[dd3stp233]

Anyone interested in the occult roots of Scientology might like John Carter's book "Sex and Rockets: the occult world of Jack Parsons". Jack Parson's was a co-founder of JPL- NASA's Jet propulsion Laboratories in the 1930's. Hubbard was in a cult that Parson's led. It was an American branch of Alester Crowley's O.T.O. Hubbard also lived at his house and took part in the magic rituals. Parson's and Hubbard latter formed a company togather. Hubbard ended up defrauding Parson's of a large sum of money and stealing his boat and girlfriend. This has been proven by existing court documents. This is hardly the messianic figure that Scientology portrays Hubbard to be. Hubbard has been quoted as saying, "The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion."

[John King]

Hello dd3stp233! Really interesting stuff!

 

dd3stp233 wrote:

 

Jack Parson's was a co-founder of JPL- NASA's Jet propulsion Laboratories in the 1930's. Hubbard was in a cult that Parson's led. It was an American branch of Alester Crowley's O.T.O.

 

Dang! The black arts of the occult mixed up with rocket science!? Now [/i]that's interesting! Being a horror movie fan, you just gotta love creepy Aleister Crowley. He's inspired more macabre fun than, well I dunno really...he's just "out there" know what I mean?

 

dd3stp233 wrote:

 

Hubbard ended up defrauding Parson's of a large sum of money and stealing his boat and girlfriend.

 

Double Dang! Ole Ron sure had the cajones did'nt he? Maybe he was just smart enough to know when to stop. After defrauding Parsons out of money, then stealing his boat and his girlfriend?! If he had got his dog too-- now that would have been a killin offense (here in Kentucky least ways!)

 

Seriously, some really intersting stuff in your post. Man I'm telling y'all-- If we can't get some good ideas for movies out of this we aint worth our salt as filmmakers! Thanks for the post!

 

Best regards,

 

J.M. King

[Matt Butler]

Cults or Religions? As mentioned here, most religions have their beginnings way back before the era of *scientific enlightenment*, that period in the last few hundred years where fact was able to explain a lot of of the *mysteries* of life. Before then folks had no clear explanations for most things we take for granted today.

 

Our western *christian* history is full of religious conflict - check out the slaughter that occurred in Europe in the 17th century between various christian factions with underlying political intrigue. Sounds familiar? our muslim friends are in the same place at the moment.

 

Belief systems will always be with us, just look up at the deep sky at night on some remote location - it is a little overpowering - but all one can do is just accept it and not push your beliefs onto others.

 

just my two schekels,

 

cheers,

matt butler

Sydney, Australia

[Guest]

Just as I predicted the discussion made a turn to attack yet another religion, Now this from Karl Borowski:

 

"I am very wary of the Mormons too. Essentially they believe that Jesus Christ (more accurately a tribe of early Christians) discovered America. They also endorsed polygamy at a time, and currently have a similarly massive tithe. Their religion is also of the sinigular distinction to be run by a "president". To give you an example of how ridiculously large the Mormon tithe is, my friends father's friend (both of whom work for the Eastman Kodak company) both work in the engineering sector. My friend's father works on x-ray emulsions. I'm not sure if his friend works in that sector or a different one. He has a large family (5 or 6 kids), but I'm assuming he's making at least 80-90K plus in a year being an engineer. Now that is not easy living, but it's doable. However, supposedly, the Mormon Church requires he give them a certain percentage of his income. This is such a drain on him financially (I bellieve it is more than 10%)"

 

So now you're attacking the Latter Day Saints as well, isn't that nice! FYI the tithe in the Mormon church is 10% period, not more than 10% as you seem to believe. Did you forget the tax benefits of financial contributions to ones church?

 

Plus how does any religion force their people to give money to it? People do it of their own free will, if some one wants to give 10%, 20%, or 30%, that is their business. If they didn't want to do it they could just quit their religion.

 

I find it odd Karl that you say you're a Catholic and you criticize the Mormons for having a "president", excuse me but what the heck is the Pope!!!!!

 

Here Karl just for demonstration purposes I'll attack your religion and then you can have a taste of your own medicine and see how you like it....

 

The Catholic church recently tried to cover up a massive sex abuse scandal in the USA, mainly in the Boston MA area. Catholic priests for decades sexually molested young boys and the Catholic church paid the families "hush money" to keep the whole thing quiet. Rather than go to the police and expose the abusive priests. Now the Catholics are being sued for millions.

 

While millions starve around the world, and Karl Borowski thinks it's so awful that his Mormon friend pays 10% to his church, the Catholic church continues to spend lavishly on its top leaders. Have you seen the Pope's clothing? How many dozen fancy robes does one guy need? Isn't he a humble servant of God? Tough to be a humble servant of God when you live in a palace full of gold statues and sit on a throne.

 

Shall I go on Karl? I can type for hours on this subject.

 

Again this is for demonstation purposes only, any religion can be attacked and picked apart, that doesn't mean it should be.

 

R,

[Mike Kaminski]

I think this all just demonstrates what i said earlier. Scientology is hardly unique. Any religion is inevitably frought with corruption and irrationality, whether or not you see it just depends on what side of the fence you are sitting on. And yeah, religion can help people too--it certainly seems that scientology has given Tom Cruise a purpose in his life. Scientology's stance on medicine can hardly be criticized by christians, whose religion has been the biggest obstacle in scientific advancement, and in fact STILL is. I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, but I think that perhaps christians themselves may be too close to their religion to objectively see how similar they all are in the fundamentals.

[Jonathan Spear]

"""Maybe you just don't like religion - that's okay - but then explain to me why you find a spring morning beautiful? Why Mozart moves you? Why you can stand transfixed in front of a Renoir for hours? Why the images in "Lawrence of Arabia" stay with one for a lifetime?

 

Have you ever considered that perhaps the greatest evidence of our being created in the image of our Creator God is that we too enjoy creation, also know as Art?"""

 

Well said.

 

Personally, I'm cool with God. It's His fan club I can't stand.

[Preston Herrick]

Right on, Richard! By their fruits ye shall know them.

[Mike Kaminski]

You ignorance is showing, as a Catholic with a Jewish mother I can assure you that Mosaic Monotheism isn't exclusively a Christian thing. Are you aware that Islam also believes He Who Is?

 

Yes i am aware, but that has nothing to do with what i was discussing, which is that every religion says "we/I are/am right and everyone else is not," and that disobedience is not tolerated.

 

And for the record, Judaism was intially polytheistic-- Marduk, the Elohim and Yahweh are all different gods of the ancient eras.

 

Maybe you just don't like religion - that's okay - but then explain to me why you find a spring morning beautiful? Why Mozart moves you? Why you can stand transfixed in front of a Renoir for hours? Why the images in "Lawrence of Arabia" stay with one for a lifetime?

 

Have you ever considered that perhaps the greatest evidence of our being created in the image of our Creator God is that we too enjoy creation, also know as Art?

 

Thats completely baseless. Because we have artistic achievements that is proof of god? How does that logic work? And by your train of thought you seem to be implying that my emotion comes from god as if he is pushing buttons "be sad now" "be happy now" as if we are some kind of puppet. Theres no reason to introduce god in the equation here. Emotion comes from various chemical balances in the brain. Why do certain images and moods evoke the same emotions in most people? Because all human brains are wired in a similar manner. Theres absolutely no rational logic progression to say that this is proof of a god or gods. You are simply starting with the conclusion that god exists and forcing it into natural phenomena that dont need this conclusion to be explained.

[James Steven Beverly]

And yeah, religion can help people too--it certainly seems that scientology has given Tom Cruise a purpose in his life.

 

You mean other that his work, his children and his new girlfriend w/ their new baby that's on the way. Ya, without Scientology his life would be COMPLETELY empty. :rolleyes:

 

And If Jack Parson was a student of Aleister Crowley's Why didn't he just flip the poptop on a can o' voodoo, devil worshippin,' bad mojo, Woop-ass on Hubbard'? Man steals you money, boat, girl and pride I would think a little visit from the Prince of Darkness would be a given. Maybe Crowley's cult was like a party Black Arts cult and Parson spent most of his time guzzelling uraine laced red wine with his friends, snorting Eye of Newt and trying to score with hot looking virgins before they got sacrificed. Then when he got out into to the real world, he couldn't cast a hex worth a damnation and Hell fire, no occult book store owners would hire him so he had to fall back on his back up plan and opened his own rocket shop.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Capt.Video

[dd3stp233]

Jack Parsons was not just a student of Crowley, he was for a time, the leader of the U.S. branch of Crowley's group the Ordo Templi Orientis. FBI file #LA65-5131 #LA65 1753. The magical workings of this group, of which Hubbard was a major part, had higher things in mind than doing hex's on people. Parsons took Hubbard to court to get resolution. The book I mentioned above has copies of the court documents. Parsons was very practical on one hand (being a rocket scientist) and very mystical on the other. Many of Crowleys teachings as well as Hubbards are based on other traditions such as Buddhism, hinduism and tantra among many others. This is in part where Hubbard got his ideas from for Scientology. Hubbard and Parson did do a lot of good drugs (peyote, opium, hash, etc.) togather in their rituals. Parsons was already rich, he lived next door to Adolfous Busch (founder of Anheuser-Busch, the beer company), so stealing some of his money probably wasn't that big of a deal. Hubbard apparently used that money to publish and promote "Dianetics". Parson did end up latter marrying actress Majorie Cameron. She started in "Night Tide" with Dennis Hopper and Kenneth Anger's "Inauguartion of the Pleasure Dome", among others. Other famous writers were friends of Parsons such as Robert Heinlein and Ray Bradbury.

[James Steven Beverly]

SEE!!! I TOLD Ordo Templi Orientis is the biggest party cult on the west coast! Party cults always have the best drugs. He was probably in a frat, the Tri-6's. Course now, if your the freekin' head of a devil whorshiping cult bent on the distruction of the world in the name of all mighty Satan and some Bozo pisses you off WWWEEEELLLL did you see what they did to Peter Fonda's motorhome in Race with the Devil! Now that's proper revenge for a head warlock, Yet this guy just sues? WHAT A WIMP! He coulda at least cut the throat of a chicken and given the guy genital herpies or syphellus or something! Get him and the lyin' backstabbing X back all at the same time, THEN move on to the starlet. What is evil comming to when a servant of the dark lord needs a lawyer to exact his revenge. although a lawyer is kinda a spawn of hell so maybe.... :angry:

Edited May 10, 2006 by Capt.Video

[dd3stp233]

That's not a nice thing to say about the father of the American space program as Wernher von Braun called him. Parsons nickname was the antichrist.

[Jonathan Spear]

> Parsons nickname was the antichrist.

 

Lucky bastard.

 

I bet that was a great pickup line.

 

:)

[Chad Stockfleth]

What a silly topic, especially on a cinematography forum. Almost as heated as the RED strand. *Sigh*