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Freedom of the Press vrs. Al Jazeera


Robert Hughes

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There hasn't been a war between muslims and Christains? Was your British tea laced with some crack when you wrote that statement? The British have colonized and wrecked the lives of hundreds of millions of muslims and arabs throughout its history. Remember the Crusades? Amazing memory there Gareth. You truly are a Brit in every sense of the word. :blink:

 

There are millions of Palestinians who live in squalid refugee camps who also "just want a home." We are in the year 2006, and we have dozens and dozens of refugee camps in Gaza, Lebanon, the West Bank, and on. We'll talk about everything but the basic rights of human beings to return home from where they are displaced.

 

Anyone wondering why this area is acting up really needs to stop watching western controled media and pop open some good books on history and political science.

 

Better yet buy a ticket and fly to the middle east with your damn video cameras and shoot the ultra and wretched squalid conditions of millions displaced Palestinians in various areas, and you'll discover how little you know of this area.

 

Hey, since so many here are always wondering how to break in into the commercial world of cinematography, film and documentary making, and are always asking for advice, why not start by doing just that?

 

Nick Woods

 

 

 

As a British man I find it very funny when you guys blame yourselves ( The USA ) for islamic militancy, sorry to bore you but this has been going on since you were throwing tea into the sea.

There has been war between muslim and christians since Mohammed gave the world his book, it's as simple as that.

As for looking for someone to blame for the modern problems, the left ( in Europe anyway ) seems too put the blame on the Israeli's for just wanting a home. Iran's elite use this all the time, "sorry guys life is poop for you because of the Zionist Jews" not because you have no VOTE no FREEDOM of expression . The Islamic world use the Israeli's like this every day.

As for Al Jazeera, one thing that upset me was the fact that they had a video of the London bombers and waited for 7/7 2006 when all of London was in morning too show this "back to Back" on their channel, nice.

 

Not sure if this makes any sense. But thats what I'm thinking at this time.

 

Gareth Munden. London UK.

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As a British man I find it very funny when you guys blame yourselves ( The USA ) for islamic militancy, sorry to bore you but this has been going on since you were throwing tea into the sea.

 

I don't think we are so naive as to think we created Islamic Militants, we have just been fanning the flames of late.

 

The thing that disappoints me the most is the squandered opportunity to use 9/11 not only to perhaps learn a lesson ourselves, but to rationally and unequivocally show the world that we ARE a great country that is able to withstand such attacks and react responsibly. Instead, it has been hi-jacked to push an extremist/reactionist/moral agenda. We have become the thrashing lion with a thorn in it's toe.

 

Now look Capt., I'm not claiming that we should abandon the Iraqi people, that bed has been made, and now we must lay in it; I'm also not claiming that things were great under Saddam, but as David, Matt Stone and Trey Parker have said, we cannot police the world. We cannot pick and choose which dictator's are good dictator's and which are bad (our own being bad ;-)

 

What I would appreciate is you not casting all "terrorists" in the same mould. They are NOT all evil, psycho, sons-of-bitches. Mislead, yes. Provoked, hell yes. But they are still PEOPLE. I'm sure here you will call me some kind of head in the clouds idealist, but try to understand what these "terrorists" are up against and what they believe and it makes a little more sense then just mindless murdering. I'm not condoning their ways, I just think we should make an effort to understand people rather than casting them in these black and white roles.

 

I respect your differing views and agree in degrees with what you have to say, but killing people is ALWAYS wrong in my opinion: terrorists, enemy combatants, infidels, civillians and prisoners alike.

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Nick, thank you for your anti british poop . What does "you truly are a Brit in every sense of the word" mean ?. Nice one !!! . As for the Crusades, oh so that makes bombing OK ? what about the spanish they killed millions too . Buy a history book . Did you not kill everyone in the USA once ? remember ?

 

As for wars againest Muslims, you ever heard of the ottaman empire ( spelling maybe off, sorry if it is ) ?

Read up on it .

 

As for the camps ( which have been there for years and years ) one of the big problems is that no muslim country will take them in ( they are all brothers 'till they need help ) in fact these camp are great PR for the leaders of Iran and syria.

 

BUY a history book and stop being rude .

 

PS I've been around the world and some of the poorest, shity places I've seen are in the USA .

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"Oh, and Richard I don't have to bomb any place in the US, I case you've forgotten, Timothy Mc Veigh & Terry Nichols were caught and convicted as were the terrorists that planned the first attack on the world trade center and the guy who bombed Atlanta. So I really don't have to bomb anywere in the US because we have laws and people willing to enforce them."

 

My point was that the US would never take out an entire city block with a missile strike from an F-18 in an effort to get 2-3 terrorists they think are living in the basement of an apartment building.

 

However, this sort of tactic is used by the US in those "poor poop hole" countries populated by people the US public could not give a flying crap about. Remember the Predator drone attack in Pakistan where the US tried to get a handful of terrorists? Turns out the terrorists where not even there, yet how many innocent civilians died?

 

Please spare me, "in war the innocent die" BS. Like I said if these same tactics where used on US soil, I doubt the family members of the dead would just say "oh well in war the innocent get killed."

 

R,

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Every now and then, Richard and I find ourselves in complete agreement... in many ways, Canadian conservatives are very different from their US counterparts.

 

I never meant that the US created an Islamic militancy -- that goes back to the creation of Islam after all. I only meant that we are doing a far more effective job of increasing it that any supposed PR campaign by Al Jazeera. We certainly spend more money than they do in the ongoing campaign to give Arabs a reason to hate us -- they can't compete.

 

Besides, dropping a bomb on Al Jazeera may feed Capt. Video's bloodlust, but certainly won't cause a more "fair and balanced" news channel to arise from the smoking crater. After what would arise, Capt. Video would be wishing Al Jazeera were back!

 

It comes back to the self-fulfilling prophecy notion, this cycle of violence mainly just creates more violence and makes the world less safe, giving us more reasons to increase the violence in some attempt to make ourselves safer.

 

As for the "good" wars like WW1, WW2, and Korea... and even the "bad" ones like Vietnam, I seem to recall that the Democrats were in the White House, so I always hate the silly argument that "if liberals were in charge, Hitler would still be in power." They didn't come much more liberal than FDR! It was because Hitler had broken the sovereignty of his surrounding nations that the Allies came together to fight him. If we keep doing the same thing, ignoring international law and invading sovereign nations, we may be perceived in the future history books as the rogue state that had to be stopped by a coalition of other countries. Some future Ottoman-Turk(ish) Empire will look back and note how the once-great and long-gone USA helped mobilize Islamic countries into a fight against a common enemy.

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Please spare me, "in war the innocent die" BS.

Actually, this is true, which is precisely why throughout the history of mankind wars have virtually never been started by the "good guys". Even the concept of "preemptive strike" is as old as the hills. Pretty much all wars are started under that pretext. They are generally used as political distractions for those in power to maintain that power, present situation included.

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All of these refugees are "a great PR"? Now you understand why really are a Brit. Crack open these Books Gareth, they're waiting for you at the local Pub.. I am sorry, I meant the library. :blink:

 

Nick Woods

 

Nick, thank you for your anti british poop . What does "you truly are a Brit in every sense of the word" mean ?. Nice one !!! . As for the Crusades, oh so that makes bombing OK ? what about the spanish they killed millions too . Buy a history book . Did you not kill everyone in the USA once ? remember ?

 

As for wars againest Muslims, you ever heard of the ottaman empire ( spelling maybe off, sorry if it is ) ?

Read up on it .

 

As for the camps ( which have been there for years and years ) one of the big problems is that no muslim country will take them in ( they are all brothers 'till they need help ) in fact these camp are great PR for the leaders of Iran and syria.

 

BUY a history book and stop being rude .

 

PS I've been around the world and some of the poorest, shity places I've seen are in the USA .

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"Every now and then, Richard and I find ourselves in complete agreement... in many ways, Canadian conservatives are very different from their US counterparts."

 

Yes, you are quite correct on that point David. Our Conservatives are the equivalent of US democrats.

 

There is nothing in Canada that is the equivalent of the Republican Party, and in the USA there is certainly nothing similar to our left parties, the Liberals and NDP.

 

When I lived in the USA I was considered to be a "liberal" democrat because I oppose the death penalty and support national health care for all citizens, & gun control. In Canada however I am a right wing Conservative, and my opposition the death penalty and support of national health is in line with the doctrines of the Conservative party of Canada.

 

Ok so now this thread can be about the differences between "liberal" and "conservative" in various nations of the world :)

 

R,

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I have to politely disagree with you, Richard. :D

 

In America we have every political flavor, they're just overshadowed by the feotid umbrella of the Democrats and Republicans. Both parties are spilling over the brim with the sloth of pigs. It is time for an intellectual revolution in America. Too bad it won't happen...we're too busy dumbing ourselves down. And that goes for the "west" at large.

 

I hope whoever wins the next presidential election in America pulls a big surprise on everyone! When he/she gets to the office they say, "Guess what? Thats right....I'm a TRUE moderate. A people person. Responsible! Sorry to everyone who voted for me thinking I'd pull my party farther in the extreme, it ain't gonna happen."

Sacrin? Perhaps. But I like to be simple.

 

Alas, it's not to be. :( I'm going to watch Halloween part 5 now, Robert Draper does a great job considering...bye-bye. :rolleyes:

Edited by BARCA
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"In America we have every political flavor, they're just overshadowed by the feotid umbrella of the Democrats and Republicans. "

 

Ok well yes what you say above is essentially what I meant. I'm sure there are left wing socialists in the USA that are like our NDP. BUT, they don't hold any seats in the US house or senate. Where as in Canada they do.

 

Unfortunately.

 

R,

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Oh, my, I thought this would be a hot button issue, and I was right. Even David Mullen is frothing at the mouth.

 

A few more sticks for the fire -

 

- If they work for us, they aren't mercenaries, they're contractors. Who was it in Fallujah - Blackroot, Blackthorn, Blackbart, Blackbeard...?

 

dropping a bomb on Al Jazeera may feed Capt. Video's bloodlust, but certainly won't cause a more "fair and balanced" news channel to arise from the smoking crater. After what would arise, Capt. Video would be wishing Al Jazeera were back!
- One of the first Israeli targets in Beirut was the television station.

 

- I saw in the business papers that General Dynamics, the big defence contractor, reports a 100% increase in profits in the past 6 months.

 

- Why is a backpack bomb a terrorist weapon, but a 105mm howitzer shell isn't?

 

- Did anyone catch CNN's "Inside Herzbollah"? How's that for fair & balanced reportage - did CNN get bought by Fox? Or is this another one of those "propo-mercials" being generated by the Administration?

 

- Last summer I heard a couple DC politico types saying "sometimes you need a war to get any progress done".

 

- When I was a kid, I knew plenty of Jewish kids and no Arabs or Muslims. I always assumed Israel was in the right in the '67 and '73 wars. I was in college before I even realized there was another side to the issue. Now most of my colleagues are African Muslim and none are Jewish. Someone tell me what to think!

Edited by Robert Hughes
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I just think it's a bit sad that so many people seem to think that the choices in dealing with world conflicts are either: (1) do nothing; or (2) military intervention. That's the sort of reductive thinking that depresses me. Makes you wish for the more nuanced thinking of a Kissinger or Scowcroft, God help me for saying that...

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I just think it's a bit sad that so many people seem to think that the choices in dealing with world conflicts are either: (1) do nothing; or (2) military intervention.

A good documentary on this subject is Why We Fight which focuses on the Military Industrial Complex foretold by President Eisenhower. War is big business. Before I watched this I didn't realize that the United States didn't have a 'standing army' before WWII.

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Makes you wish for the more nuanced thinking of a Kissinger or Scowcroft, God help me for saying that...

 

HUAHAUHAUHAUHAUAHAUHAUAHAUH!!!!!! No you didn't! ;-)

 

Can we talk about Cinematography again?

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There is a line that is crossed between being human and being a something sub-human. That line was crossed on September 11, 2001. You say terrorists have reasons why they do what they do. I quite frankly don't give a rat's ass WHY they ran 4 airliners into buildings and the ground or why they cut off the heads of construction workers trying to rebuild the ifrastructure of Iraq or why they set off bombs on a London subway. I would kill them as I would kill any other vermin on earth and feel no remorse what so ever. This is not revenge, it is justice.

 

You say their back is against the wall and they were provoked and have no other chioce. Gandi stood against the entire British Empire without ever raising a hand to anyone. Madella brought down the Apartide of South africa while sitting in jail cell. Martin Luther King boycotted busses and forced America to live up to her ideas as a nation with words and Edward R. Murrow stood in front of a television camera and took on the govenrment of the United States of America to bring the communist witchhunt to an end.

 

You say we're franing the flames of hated. How, by trying to give a people a choice?We're not the ones setting off IEDs and kidnapping people so they can be beheaded on tape as some demonic PR stunt or forcing men to wear a beard and women to be cover from head to toe under penalty of death.

 

You say we're instigating the poliferation of nuclear weapons around the world. Noone would be talking about invading Iran if they didn't HAVE the capibility of building nuclear weapons and the whole reason we went to war in Iraq in the first place was we believed Saddam had nuclear weapons and the only reason we're take North Korea as a sirious treat to American security is because Kim Jong Il has nukes at his disposal. The agrument, which I have also heard before, That is you have nukes you don't get invaded is a ridicules. During the Cuban missile crisis we had complete and detailed plans, ready and in hand, to fight a full scale nuclear war with the Soviet Union had they not removed their medium range nuclear missiles from that island, and have no doubt about it, we were deadly sirious about putting those plans into action. Many of Kennedy's military advisors urged him to to put these plans into action immediately before the Russians could make their missiles in Cuba operational. Thank God the Russians backed down. However it could have very easily gone the other way, Kennedy committed an act of war when he ordered a naval blockade of Cuba and the Russians could have viewed it that way and launched a first strike, all out nuclear attack. The only reasone they didn't was they were pretty sure we would have aniallated them and in the process, the rest of the world. Remember, we are the only nation to have actually used nuclear weapons during wartime and that was to subdue a nation of fanatics bent on world domination after these fanatics had committed an unprovoked attack from the air on American soil then refused to surrender even when it was clear there was NO CHANCE of them winning the war. You cannot reason with fannatics. We are talking about lunitics armed with the most powerful weapon ever devised by man. If China weren't involved North Korea would have already been bombed and if it weren't for Russia so would Iran. E can't allow people with a 15th century mentality to have that kind of power. We have to be the ones who stand up for what's right because there is noone elseto do it.

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One of the first steps in a civilized society committing genocide is when they label another group of people as sub-human and thus can justify destroying them like vermin. And it's even more disturbing when its done under the pretense of moral superiority. I've really had enough of all of this hate-mongering. Maybe you feel this sick need to psych-up Americans in order to induce them into a worldwide killing spree, but I really wish you'd go somewhere else to do it.

 

During WW2, there was so much propaganda on both sides to label the opposing soldiers as sub-human monsters who needed to be killed without mercy, that when Americans landed at Okinawa, Japanese women lept off of cliffs with their children rather than be raped and killed by Americans, who they had been taught were evil monsters. THAT'S the end result of this sort of talk about how the enemy is sub-human, etc.

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America, Europe and Israel have all been victims of persecution, but they've all had the courage to take action against dictatorship. That's why they are free democracies, and thriving today. Go to Israel. See for yourself. Israel is a thriving metropolis.

 

Bush does seem like an idiot, not unlike many other politicians around the free world -- but Americans as a whole didn't vote for him. The ghosts of fear, xenophobia, racism and religious extremism of the confederate south did.

 

And yet, Europeans, Americans and Israelis, do the BEST with what they're given -- for the purpose of crafting realms of peace and oppurtunity for their citizens. Since the Bush administration came into power, has their been a civil war on American soil? Nope. And there won't be either.

 

The Arab world is VERY different..

 

The problem with Iraqis, Iranians, Lebanese muslims and the Palestinians is the fact that they are scared shitless of taking any action against the subhuman monsters ruling over them with their bloodspattered scimitars, to the point where the join them blindly and turn a blind eye to their own suffering for the promise of romanticised religous "happy endings". It's easier for a palestinian child to strap on a suicide belt than it is for him/her to speak out against the Hammas.

 

Middle Easterners are NOT children anymore. This culture needs to grow up. Quickly.

 

The irony of Israel, a lone democracy right in the heart of a medievil lion's den, is quite remarkable in my opinion and one that mirrors the good and virtue found in mankind.

 

Until Muslims start standing up for themselves, JUST LIKE WE HAVE ALREADY, their fate will not keep me up at night.

 

Why? Because I don't know what's worse.. the beheadings of innocent hostages, or the fact that the beheading videos were snatched off the shelves like hotcakes by "innocent" Iraqis.

 

And voting, as big of a step as it is, is still a very minor baby step.

 

These people have such a long way to go..

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I'm not taking about a killing spree or moral supiriority and this is not hate mongering this is a call for justice. I don't hate Iraqis or Iranians or Koreans or anyone else who's NOT trying to kill me because I';m an American. I hate Terrorists. I hate Irish terrorisists I hate Chechneian terrorists. I hate American Terrorists. I hate Itailian Terrorists. I Hate Bosnian terrorists. I hate German terrorist. I hate any coward that hides in the shadows and blows poeple up by remote control. I'm talking about taking out murders, people who kill innocent people without remorse or dicrimination. That's what a terrorist does. The word terrorist is one who invokes terror. This isn't against people we're unsure of. I'm talking about coldblooded killers that we KNOW are killers. I'm sorry if this upsets you, David, because I do respect you. But I DO feel morally superior to people who would set off a bomb on a subway or cut off a guy's head on TV or run an airliner into a building loaded with people. I can't appologize for that.

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Some Arabs would argue (and I don't agree with them) that "standing up for themselves" as you are suggesting that they do, is exactly what Hezbollah is doing, and why so many Arabs view them as heros. And Hamas was elected into power in Palestine; suicide bombers aren't pushed at gunpoint by Hamas into doing what they do, out of fear of Hamas, but out of hatred of Isreal.

 

But I agree that any Arab who thinks that Isreal is going to go away is fooling themselves and any long term solution has to begin by recognizing the reality of Isreal; hence why Hamas and Hezbollah are behaving so idiotically.

 

One of the real problems is that most of the Arab world is controlled by a few powerful oil-rich families, and some of those people are radical enough to funnel their wealth into terrorist groups. And what makes me sick is that America, along with the rest of the world, is basically funding terrorism through our oil consumption. In Iran, you have the worst combination of a country sitting on the biggest oil reserve in the world and being controlled by religious fundamentalists. Just imagine what would happen if suddenly tomorrow everyone stopped buying oil from the Middle East and all that money dried up. Maybe finally the rest of the population would stand up and take over from the few powerful people controlling the oil. If these people are behaving as "children" as you say, it's because they are treated as such. There's no impetus to develop private industries or educate the population when the country has so much money coming in from the outside. Of course, I'm speaking more of some of the Saudi countries; the Palestinians, for example, are one of the more educated groups in the region.

 

Bush has said that the road to peace in the Middle East runs through Baghdad, but recent events have shown how offbase he is -- the real sore point has been the Palestinian / Isreali conflict.

 

While not a cheerleader for war, I could understand the reasons for the war in Afghanistan, who was harboring the group that did attack us on 9/11. I understood the reasons for the first Gulf War, when Saddam invaded a sovereign nation (many other countries also understood the reasons, hence why it was so much easier to put together a coalition force.) But the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and nothing to do with a fear of Saddam getting nuclear weapons -- we were told these things because Bush could sell the war that way; he couldn't have sold it to the American public if he were really honest about his reasons, which were the Neo-Con theories about spreading democracy in the Middle East by establishing a beachhead in Iraq. Americans generally don't like the idea of nation-building and we wouldn't have approved a war for that reason, to install a democracy at gunpoint. So we got the sideshow of WMD's and the implied connections between Saddam and 9/11 to goad us into action. But the whole thing has blown-up literally in our faces. It's cost much more in dollars and lives than the Bush admistration ever factored, and now they (and thus we) are stuck cleaning up the mess. We went to war because some right-wing think tanks thought it was a clever thing to do.

 

And anyone who thinks U.S. actions -- rightly or wrongly -- have not inflamed passions in the Middle East is delusional. I never said it was fair, only that our behavior has been a rallying point for our enemies. We give them all the propaganda tools they need to recruit more terrorists. For example, they claim we're in bed with Isreal -- how have we proven them wrong?

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I understand that you hate terrorists and not Arabs, but it's not like when you march into a city, the terrorists will be wearing red armbands or something to identify them, so it is dangerous to go into a shooting war with such vague ideas of exactly who you will be shooting at.

 

You say you don't really care WHY terrorists do what they do, but to me, the most efficient way of getting rid of them would have to start by understanding why terrorists are created in the first place. Because if killing a terrorist just means that two more will pop up to take his place, it's not going to lead to our greater security. We have to attack the root causes of the problem, not the manifestation, if we really want to do more than simply get even, but actually win a significant victory.

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""For example, they claim we're in bed with Isreal -- how have we proven them wrong?""

 

When Ahmadenijad, Nasrallah, Saddam, OBL, Zarqawi, et etc etc say something like that, they're blowing everything out of proportion (as usual). They make it sound like something in the vain of the 'Protocals of the Elders of Zion' or Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'. Like there's an evil conspiracy between the "Zionists" ( <_< ) and the "Crusaders" ( <_< ) against the poor, innocent, righteous Arab world.

 

See, if they weren't the way they are, they could easily communicated the same message in more modern terms by saying something along the lines of:

 

"Despite our differences, the United States of America and the state of Israel have a lot of common."

 

Or God forbid..

 

"Maybe if we learn to understand each other, we could bridge the gaps between us."

 

At this point in time, I can't imagine a sentance like that coming out of an Arab leader's mouth. Not even in my wildest dreams.

Edited by TSM
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I understand that you hate terrorists and not Arabs, but it's not like when you march into a city, the terrorists will be wearing red armbands or something to identify them, so it is dangerous to go into a shooting war with such vague ideas of exactly who you will be shooting at.

 

You say you don't really care WHY terrorists do what they do, but to me, the most efficient way of getting rid of them would have to start by understanding why terrorists are created in the first place. Because if killing a terrorist just means that two more will pop up to take his place, it's not going to lead to our greater security. We have to attack the root causes of the problem, not the manifestation, if we really want to do more than simply get even, but actually win a significant victory.

 

 

David the WHY is in most cases they would like to see Israel removed from the map. The WHY is the leaders of Iran, Syria FEED their people HATE againest Zionest and the USA. The fact is the guy on the street in the middle east have Zionests as their BADGUYS so they don't have the will too ask for FREEDON OF SPEACH and the right to VOTE.

The USA is not the only reason for Terrorists ( they don't help ), as we speak Muslims is killing Muslim in Iraq , as they did before the WAR.

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a few little points to add...

 

there was a huge grassroots democracy movement in iran until a few years ago. after the islamic revolution over twenty years ago, the citizens naturally started trying to move the government towards a representational democracy, powered largely by iran's womens' rights movement. of course, you never ever heard anything about it here because the US prefers to present democracy as some kind of franchise we've exclusively spread across the world, like a chain of corporate-owned mcdonalds or something, and for democracy to grab hold in an islamic country not only without any of our help, but rather in spite of the US, was somewhat of an embarrassment, since it all began with them aggressively booting out the US puppet government. the process was derailed in 2004 when 2500 reformist candidates were disqualified from elections because the islamic conservatives were scared of losing power. but if left alone, iran's democratic movement would have eventually taken hold-- it had already taken great strides and the disqualifications had spawned more motivation. of course the US has since ruined all that by throwing the threat of war into the picture and basically galvanizing iran's populace under its current retardo conservative government (gee, reminds me of my own country). this doesn't seem to fall in line with the US's goal of spreading democracy. oh, and remember when ahmadinejad won the presidency and the pentagon planted all that BS in the press trying to say he was one of the original hostage takers of 1979? that was some of the most pathetic simpleton garbage i've seen come out of the american psyops... they might as well should've just rented out billboards reading "hey america! iran president = terrorist". of course that was all reported as being "under investigation" by the news sources. umm... i don't remember seeing any of the follow up stories about how it was confirmed, or if they were wrong. that was just chapter 1 in a long string of news media plantings to gradually help justify an iran invasion.

 

the other point is more yucky and disturbing. according to bin laden, the reason they are comfortable with killing american and israeli civilians is because we are citizens in a democracy, and have played a role in forming our governments' foreign & military policy, and have not used our political power to curb any immoral or unethical use of military power, so therefore we are implicit in any abuses of power and are justified as targets. he also argues that the majority of arabs live under dictatorships and therefore should not be held accountable or punished (killed) for the actions of their governments.

 

also, the US's oil consumption played a key role in the spread of islamic terrorism. the saudi royal government is actually pretty progressive and western-friendly. but the highly influential religious power structure there isn't, and use their influence to sway the public against the royals. during the 80s and 90s, the islamic power structure was not very happy about the growing western relationship (ie. oil trade). so basically, to shut them up and keep them happy, the royals gave them money without really keeping dibs on where it went. a bunch of it went towards spreading wahibism and funding militant type stuff... basically it was the US's oil-buying money that funded what later became al qaeda. also, the foundation of militant islamic tactical and strategic methodology came directly from the CIA, from back when they trained the mujahideen in afghanistan on how best to combat the occupying soviet forces. most of the poop going on in iraq is almost identical to the methods taught back in afghanistan, like attacking infrastrure and especially IEDs.

 

if you wanna know the real reason for the iraq war and potential iran invasion, just google "peak oil".

 

and i saw this...

"America, Europe and Israel have all been victims of persecution, but they've all had the courage to take action against dictatorship. That's why they are free democracies, and thriving today. Go to Israel. See for yourself. Israel is a thriving metropolis."

... and just wanted to remind you that financial wealth creates thriving metropolises, not freedom or democracy. think of imperial-era britian or spain... neither free nor democratic, but rich as hell. nazi germany was a thriving metropolis.

 

eventually bush and his neo-con morons will be out of office and then all the expensive fence mending and patch sewing can begin.

 

...The WHY is the leaders of Iran, Syria FEED their people HATE againest Zionest and the USA. The fact is the guy on the street in the middle east have Zionests as their BADGUYS so they don't have the will too ask for FREEDON OF SPEACH and the right to VOTE.

 

you are right on money.

and i'm so glad that here in america, we don't have any over-simplified distractionary "bad guys" keeping the guy on the street's mind off important things. oh wait, i forgot, we do have those "bad guys". it's those two dudes who wanna get married.

Edited by jaan
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Hi,

 

The problem here, as so frequently, is religion. The only reason any of the parties to the current problems are particularly attached to the patch of ground in question (an almost entirely useless patch of sun-blasted scrub and empty desert, in fact) is because their religious teachings tell them to be.

 

Religion makes people do things without having properly considered their reasons for so doing, and makes apparently senseless problems like this much more serious. It applies only because it's usually presented to people by their parents at an age when they're very impressionable, which is a pretty poor basis on which to murder someone. It's a placebo for a self-aware population whose self-awareness makes them uncofmfortably aware of issues such as purpose and mortality without necessarily having the education to properly understand them, which is uncomfortable. I just think the world should have outgrown it by now.

 

I am, of course, referring to the fundamentalist Christianity, with it's absolute belief in the fire-and-brimstone ending to the bible, that's had its finger on "the button" in the US for the past many years, as much as I am referring to Judaism and its obsession with the ritual genital mutilation of boys, Islam and its tendency to mistreat women, Catholicism and the root cause of the world population problem...

 

Phil

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  • Premium Member

Hi,

 

The problem here, as so frequently, is religion. The only reason any of the parties to the current problems are particularly attached to the patch of ground in question (an almost entirely useless patch of sun-blasted scrub and empty desert, in fact) is because their religious teachings tell them to be.

 

Religion makes people do things without having properly considered their reasons for so doing, and makes apparently senseless problems like this much more serious. It applies only because it's usually presented to people by their parents at an age when they're very impressionable, which is a pretty poor basis on which to murder someone. It's a placebo for a self-aware population whose self-awareness makes them uncofmfortably aware of issues such as purpose and mortality without necessarily having the education to properly understand them, which is uncomfortable. I just think the world should have outgrown it by now.

 

I am, of course, referring to the fundamentalist Christianity, with it's absolute belief in the fire-and-brimstone ending to the bible, that's had its finger on "the button" in the US for the past many years, as much as I am referring to Judaism and its obsession with the ritual genital mutilation of boys, Islam and its tendency to mistreat women, Catholicism and the root cause of the world population problem...

 

Phil

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